Protestant view on christ's sacrifice.

[Lincoln7]

It does support the need for people to be taught and not just to rely on your own subjective interpretation. You can sometimes come up with some really “off the charts” ideas by just relying on one’s own personal interpretation of not just the Bible but other things as well. For instance there is a Children’s book called “Amelia Bedelia” where someone wants her to bake them a “coffee cake” She knew what cake is and what coffee is so she mixed some coffee into some cake mix and made what she thought was “coffee cake!” Also she thought “weeding a garden” was putting weeds into the garden rather than pulling them OUT! Etc.

As a Protestant I do regognise the scriptural prescriptions for having pastors. The Apostles also wrote for children: “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.” Ephesians 6:1. They made it understandable for even children, its supposed to be for all…
May i ask who interprets the magisterium for you?

I must keep saying though, this isn’t really on the topic of the Protestant view of Christ’s sacrifice…

Peace

Lincs.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Heb 10:14 states and Hebrews 10:12. One single offering to the Father, which dealt with all sins, for all time. .

One Sacrifice instead of many, refers to the OT animals thus as Jesus as the one time sacrifical lamb.

This SS reading really isn’t helping you understand the content/context of scripture.

As such any need to re present this sacrifice on behalf of the people, any need for a re application of this propitiatory sacrifice means that one is saying it did not perfect them in the first place. Which I see as being in contrast to the message, and indeed the purpose of the passages quoted in Hebrews. .

Then why re-present in your church, for surely that is all it is to you. We believe in John below and the 4-Gospels.

We live in a fallen state of sin, Valley of Death in Exile. We are simply “passing through”.

You perform the Eucharist in your congregation. You pray for the forgiveness of sins. So what are you talking about?

Why do you have the Institution of the Eucharist in you congregation…Ummm a re-application of this proptiatory sacrifice:thumbsup: What you don’t have there is those who actually have the Authority to “forgive sins” You know those same sins you just pray to Jesus to forgive in your already obtained state of perfection.

"This is the Blood of the NEW and EVERLASTING COVENANT so SINS may be FORGIVEN!!! “Do this” in memory of me? Now we already know you can’t do that in a state of sin from St Paul above. So why are you doing it at all but to perform a meaningless re-application?

What purpose does the Eucharist serve in your congregation?

Jesus sacrifice perfected, once for all time, those who are sanctified. A re application of it means one is saying it didn’t perfect? .

Then why do you pray if your perfected? Why the re application of the Eucharist in your church?

I am a sinner. I do still sin, after all: “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 John 1:10. But the cross of Calvary, Jesus Christs sacrifice on my behalf has paid for that sin. A debt I can never hope to pay on my own accord. I must look to Christ alone. I beg him for his mercy, and the cross tells me I’m forgiven, once for all. .

Closer, and no those who have the Christ given authority to bind and lose “forgive sins”.

Good we can now conclude your not perfect, you do sin, sins are still part of human nature in this fallen state. Where in the Bible does it specifically state “JUST PRAY TO JESUS and your Sins are Forgiven” ? I find that sentence …Not Anywhere.

So to answer your question: I pray for forgiveness, I ask God in his mercy to forgive me, which he does, after all; “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9. This forgiveness comes as the penalty was paid by Jesus, Gods justice and wrath against sin satisfied by the cross…

1 John 1:9?.. but once again you fail reading in context with 1:6-8 The verses refer to “Claims of False Teachers.”

John? Perhaps you should read John 6, along with the other 3-Gospels.

Christ choose 12-Apostles who pasted on their authority to bind and lose. Here while we are talking John…John 20:22-23

Then he breathed on THEM and said;. [he didn’t breath on YOU]

“Receive the Holy Spirit”
If YOU forgive mans sins. [The Apostles and their Successors]
they are forgiven them.
if you hold them bound,
they are held bound!!!

What in the world was all that about, could you explain this because Matthew states the exact same thing which Christ established His church on St. Peter and the Apostles. Till the END for ALL TIME. Thus the power to bind and lose. As its states not once but several times in scripture. What are these Apostles binding and losing after Christ on the Cross?

Hebrews 10:22.

Animal sacrifice again:shrug:

Perhaps you should go back and read St Pauls “Recalling the Past”[Levitical Priesthood] which preceeds the chapter and verse you have quoted… from the start. . The new covenant bought into being, prophesied in Jerimiah. 10:22 is out of context. Through Baptism sins have been “remitted”. Judgement belongs to the Lord and He enacts it by by his Living Presence in the Eucharist by those ordained through Apostolic Succession to forgive. Which I quoted for you in John 20:22-23

St Paul only confirms this “always” as I have showed you above in Corinthians. Which repeats itself in “all” the Gospels.

Yes I still sin. I trust Christ alone, for salvation, his work on my behalf upon Calvary, and his constant intercession for believers in heaven: “Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” Hebrews 7:25. He saves to the uttermost, a single perfecting work for them, once for all. He now sits at the right hand of God. Those who are in him, he always makes intercession for…

Hebrews 7:25 in context once again is talking about the Melchizedek Priesthood. And 7:24 states Jesus has a “priesthood” which does not pass away. And that is the priesthood of the Apostles and the truly ordained of the Apostolic Churchs. Intercession is through that Priesthood. He chose the Priesthood to interceed for you.

Upon you [PETER] I will build my Church. Its remained exactly with whom He build it for 2000 years.

My prayers are with you.

 

[Lincoln7]

Mr Taylor,

One Sacrifice instead of many, refers to the OT animals thus as Jesus as the one time sacrifical lamb. This SS reading really isn’t helping you understand the content/context of scripture

I’m unsure how my last post using this verse is in opposition to what you say above? Jesus is the one time sacrificial lamb yes, what I’m saying is that the verses above show that his one time sacrifice dealt with all the sins of the elect, not just original sin and that it’s a sacrifice that perfects them.

Then why do you pray if your perfected? Why the re application of the Eucharist in your church?

Hebrews is telling the believer they are perfected by Christ’s atonement, I’m just saying what scripture clearly says However the Eucharist is not a re application of the sacrifice of Christ in my church. We do not see it as a propitiatory sacrifice for sins. To us that would be in clear contrast to Hebrews. I keep stressing that if a sacrifice must be re presented and re applied then it never perfected anyone; which is in clear opposition to Heb 10:14…
Why do I pray? Thanks to the imputation of Christ’s righteousness I am an adopted child of God, I am to offer my whole life as a living sacrifice for him, as is described in Romans 12:1.

Why do you have the Institution of the Eucharist in you congregation…Ummm a re-application of this proptiatory sacrifice

We have the Eucharist firstly, because Christ tells us to have it. But it is not a re application of Christs propitiatory sacrifice… The London Baptist confession of faith here says:

“In this ordinance Christ is not offered up to his Father, nor any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin of the quick or dead, but only a memorial of that one offering up of himself by himself upon the cross, once for all; and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God for the same.” (1)

It goes on to state:

“Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.” (2)

We celebrate the Eucharist in remembrence of the one sacrifice that happened on the cross. In it we offer up a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving to God, after all as Peter says in 1 Peter 2:5: “you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”
Thus the priesthood of all believers offer spiritual sacrifices, those of praise and thanksgiving to God. The once for all propitiatory sacrifice happened on Calvary, just as Hebrews states.

1 John 1:9?.. but once again you fail reading in context with 1:6-8 The verses refer to “Claims of False Teachers.”

I disagree here sir, in context John is talking about walking in the Light of Christ, 6-8 speak that those who walk in the light have had all their sins covered by the blood of Christ. That if they claim to be sinless, they lie, and that if they sin, they are to confess them to God, who if faithful and just to forgive them…

John? Perhaps you should read John 6, along with the other 3-Gospels.

With respect sir, I do. As for John 6; I stand with Augustine on this one and see much spiritual meaning here: “See ye then, brethren, that you eat the heavenly bread in a spiritual sense” (3). See Augustine here, specifically point 18 - newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm

Regarding John 20:21-23… I will provide a brief answer, we may risk going a bit off topic here, but I see it’s related in some way…
Calvin here gives a far better answer than what I am likely to put: m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.v.html
See points 12 and 14, they are rather brief, and will give you a good understanding of my position

What are these Apostles binding and losing after Christ on the Cross?

See Calvin in the link, but I would say that this was understood in its context to refer to doctrinal matters and matters of discipline, thus the Apostles were to have authority in matters of doctrine and discipline. (4)

Hebrews 7:25 in context once again is talking about the Melchizedek Priesthood. And 7:24 states Jesus has a “priesthood” which does not pass away. And that is the priesthood of the Apostles and the truly ordained of the Apostolic Churchs. Intercession is through that Priesthood. He chose the Priesthood to interceed for you.

I must disagree here, verse 24 states: “but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.” He holds it, he continues forever. It is speaking about Christ’s priesthood, it speaks nothing of an ordained earthly priesthood here, but of Christs own.

Peace, Lincs.
1 - vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc30.html
2 - vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc30.html
3 - newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm
4 - bible.cc/matthew/16-19.htm

 

[LegoGE1947]

Mr Taylor,

I’m unsure how my last post using this verse is in opposition to what you say above? Jesus is the one time sacrificial lamb yes, what I’m saying is that the verses above show that his one time sacrifice dealt with all the sins of the elect, not just original sin and that it’s a sacrifice that perfects them.

Hebrews is telling the believer they are perfected by Christ’s atonement, I’m just saying what scripture clearly says However the Eucharist is not a re application of the sacrifice of Christ in my church. We do not see it as a propitiatory sacrifice for sins. To us that would be in clear contrast to Hebrews. I keep stressing that if a sacrifice must be re presented and re applied then it never perfected anyone; which is in clear opposition to Heb 10:14…
Why do I pray? Thanks to the imputation of Christ’s righteousness I am an adopted child of God, I am to offer my whole life as a living sacrifice for him, as is described in Romans 12:1.

We have the Eucharist firstly, because Christ tells us to have it. But it is not a re application of Christs propitiatory sacrifice… The London Baptist confession of faith here says:

“In this ordinance Christ is not offered up to his Father, nor any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin of the quick or dead, but only a memorial of that one offering up of himself by himself upon the cross, once for all; and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God for the same.” (1)

It goes on to state:

“Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.” (2)

We celebrate the Eucharist in remembrence of the one sacrifice that happened on the cross. In it we offer up a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving to God, after all as Peter says in 1 Peter 2:5: “you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”
Thus the priesthood of all believers offer spiritual sacrifices, those of praise and thanksgiving to God. The once for all propitiatory sacrifice happened on Calvary, just as Hebrews states.

I disagree here sir, in context John is talking about walking in the Light of Christ, 6-8 speak that those who walk in the light have had all their sins covered by the blood of Christ. That if they claim to be sinless, they lie, and that if they sin, they are to confess them to God, who if faithful and just to forgive them…

With respect sir, I do. As for John 6; I stand with Augustine on this one and see much spiritual meaning here: “See ye then, brethren, that you eat the heavenly bread in a spiritual sense” (3). See Augustine here, specifically point 18 - newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm

Regarding John 20:21-23… I will provide a brief answer, we may risk going a bit off topic here, but I see it’s related in some way…
Calvin here gives a far better answer than what I am likely to put: m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.v.html
See points 12 and 14, they are rather brief, and will give you a good understanding of my position

See Calvin in the link, but I would say that this was understood in its context to refer to doctrinal matters and matters of discipline, thus the Apostles were to have authority in matters of doctrine and discipline. (4)

I must disagree here, verse 24 states: “but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.” He holds it, he continues forever. It is speaking about Christ’s priesthood, it speaks nothing of an ordained earthly priesthood here, but of Christs own.

Peace, Lincs.
1 - vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc30.html
2 - vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc30.html
3 - newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm
4 - bible.cc/matthew/16-19.htm

I’ve heard that one of the marks of a truly great theologian is the ability to preach to a group of 8 year olds and have them understand what you are telling them.

 

[Lincoln7]

I’ve heard that one of the marks of a truly great theologian is the ability to preach to a group of 8 year olds and have them understand what you are telling them.

Im no great theologian, but still, if my post is hard to understand, I can only strive in the future to make myself clearer.

Peace

Lincs

 

[Calgar]

A few interpretations from my Southern Baptist upbringing:

“Jesus suffered and died for my sins therefore I don’t have to suffer anymore. I claim the promise of health for my family!”

“We don’t have to do anything for salvation; Jesus did it all for us on the cross.”

“When we are covered with Christ’s righteousness we have eternal salvation–we can’t ever lose that salvation because then it wouldn’t be eternal.”

I’m glad you at least wrote that these are your “interpretations”.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Im no great theologian, but still, if my post is hard to understand, I can only strive in the future to make myself clearer.

Peace

Lincs

I’m sorry. I have a tendency to get off the subject!

 

[Lincoln7]

I’m sorry. I have a tendency to get off the subject!

Quite forgiven. Easy to do on here.

Lincs

 

[GaryTaylor]

Lincs,

Cherry picking a quote from St Augustine doesn’t resolve 4 Gospels plus Paul nor 2000 years of Scholars, Partiarchs, Popes, Saints and Intellects.

And I do believe St Augustine believed in the real-presense in fact he stated so several times. So we would have to take the entire content of the Dr of the Church and take into consideration the translation then re-evalutate. But we are taking “Sola Scriptura” here Bible, so should I quote a 100 or so Saints which disagree with your understanding of St Augustine?

Calvery and Cross doesn’t seem to be an issue. The Sacraments understood and the Church, Baptism, Eucharist reconciliation/Communion penance seems to be the issue.

IMHO you would first have to provide the body of evidence your even in a valid church.

Since between

Matthew 16:18 Jesus established and protects His church
Matthew 28:20 He promised to remain with THAT church always.
John 16:12 The Holy Spirit guides the church into all Truth
1 Timothy 3:15- The Church (not the Bible) is the pillar and foundation of Truth.
Matthew 18:17-18 If someone refuses to listen to the church cast him out.
Matthew 28:18-20 The Churchs authority is Jesus Christ.
1 John 4-6 Anyone who knows God listens to His Church.
Luke 10:16 He who rejects His church rejects Christ.
Matthew 16:19 The Church has the power to legislate
Acts 15:28 Decisions of the Church are decisions of the Holy Spirit,
Acts 15:6-29 The Apostles and the elders of the church settle the disputes.
Acts 16:14 People are to observe the decisions of the Apostles and Elders
Acts 1:25 The APOSTLES CHOOSE SUCCESSORS(Bishops)
Titus 1:5 Bishops appoint presbyters(Priests)
1 Peter 5:5 Be subject to the Elders.
Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and Submit to them.
1 Corinthians 1:10 THERE MUST BE NO DIVISION AMONG YOU.
Ephesians 4:4-5 There is One Body, One Lord, one Faith and ONE Baptism.

Now its would seem to me while questioning tradition which your are. Perhaps you should carefully consider you own. And I’m still waiting for the verse that states “Just Pray to Jesus and your Sins are Forgiven” specifically stating that. So yes this oral and written tradition you have a issue comprehending on Holy Week no less, I believe is a lack of your own understanding. Which of course isn’t to say you are entitled to your own opinion. However I believe its a bit bias to suggest others are not entitled to theirs when they follow 2000 years of Apostolic Tradition.

Now for the “Bible Alone” better known as Sola Scriptura??? Which is the OP

Acts 8: 26-35 Guidence is needed to interpret the Scritures (which BTW the Catholic Church wrote and compiled.)
1 Timothy 3:15 The Church (not the Bible) in the pillar and foundation of Truth.
2 Timothy 3: 16:17 Scripture is profitable for teaching , that the man of God may be complete.
Acts 2:24 The Church followed Apostolic Teaching (no0bibles or printing press was invented) a teaching straight from God. Amazing some assume they got this wrong.
2-Peter 1:20 Scripture is NOT a matter of ones own interpretation!!!
2-Peter 3:16 The ignorant and unstable twist scripture to their own destruction.
Proverbs 3:5 Do not rely on your own insight.

And there you have a “small” idea of why we follow the CC oral and written tradition which was in effect practiced before the Bible was written through Apostolic Succession. And then came the canons, Bible. I would then conclude any mistakes happened after the printing press and our famous Sola Scriptura happened along with 3300 denominations of which they all insult, mock and call each other cults and the like. Very unchristian btw. And such folly has continued.

But no were not talking about the Doctors of the Catholic Church, thats just a losing propostion for you. Real Presence is an affirmative with all of them.

The above should give you an idea of “why” we follow sacred oral and written tradition and pay no mind to SS. Of cousre along with the actual words of Jesus Christ to the Apostles about eating His flesh. Which btw he specifically stated YOU HAVE NO LIFE otherwise. For he is truly present their.

And to boot this still doesn’t resolve why in the world you follow a Sacred Tradition you don’t believe in Real Presence, so you follow what you believe is a hollow act. And presented by those who have no Authority in Christs Church to perform. Just Saying I find it a bit hard to comprehend the significance of this.

Prayers are with you, GT

Again… Where does Christ specifically state “JUST PRAY TO ME AND YOU SINS ARE FORGIVEN” I missed that verse.

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi Mr. Taylor,

Cherry picking a quote from John 6 doesn’t resolve 4 Gospels plus Paul nor 2000 years of Scholars, Partiarchs, Popes, Saints and Intellects.

The quote was from Augustine, Tractate 26 (John 6:41-59): “See ye then, brethren, that you eat the heavenly bread in a spiritual sense” (1)
He goes on to state in section 18 of the same Tractate:
“Consequently, he that dwells not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwells not, doubtless neither eats His flesh [spiritually] nor drinks His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather does he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment” (2)
Which to me seems to be rather similar to the reformed position.

But we are taking “Sola Scriptura” here, so should I quote a 100 or so Saints which disagree with your undersatnding of St Augustine?

We run the risk of a Sola Scriptura discussion here, but SS does not mean no tradition, just the tradition must be checked to scripture…

IMHO you would first have to provide the body of evidence your even in a valid church

The Belgic confession says: “The true church can be recognized if it has the following marks: The church engages in the pure preaching of the gospel; it makes use of the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them; it practices church discipline for correcting faults. In short, it governs itself according to the pure Word of God, rejecting all things contrary to it and holding Jesus Christ as the only Head. By these marks one can be assured of recognizing the true church-- and no one ought to be separated from it.” (3)

And I’m still waiting for the verse that state “Just Pray to Jesus and your Sins are Forgiven” specifically stating that.

Well such a verse using those exact words does not exist… I think Titus 3:5 puts it beautifully;
“he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit”
Or Ephesians 2:8-10: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” We could go on.

But no were not talking about the Doctors of the Catholic Church, thats just a losing propostion for you. Real Presence is an affirmative with all of them

A bold claim, which, again with respect, is unsupported, and will not be found in history. The Eucharistic theology of the early church is more varied than all of them having one view. Augustine above for example, speaking in a way very similar to the historic confession I quoted in my last post.

However sir I’m unsure how this is related to the Protestant view on Christ’s sacrifice.

Peace

Lincs

1- newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm
2- newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm
3- reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/BelgicConfession.html
All scripture quotes from the ESV.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I totally disagree on St Ausgtines interpretation by you. However as stated its not the topic of the OP to discuss the Saints of the Catholic Church. For that just opnes the door to what they ALL thought about the real presence. Did you not catch that point above?

The Belgic confession has nothing to do with Rome or what we consider to be valid thus in communion.

“Well such a verse using those exact words does not exist” Exactly and here reside’s the TRUTH with no excuse or rational. Jesus NEVER stated just pray to me and your sins are forgiven.

By Grace you are saved by faith also has nothing to do with just praying to Jesus. For there resides the Sacrements of the Church thus Baptism etc.

And with your last paragraph its not bold it a fact of all the Doctors of the Church and you should start another thread on it and we could discuss this since I have much of their work here. However that is not the topic of this thread Sola Scriptura is.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

For example with St Augustine, their is abundant body of evidence to his beliefs. Such as.

Sermo 227; on p. 377)

1. Christ bore Himself in His hands, when He offered His body saying: “this is my body.”

(Enarr. in Ps. 33 Sermo 1, 10; on p. 377)

1. Nobody eats this flesh without previously adoring it.

(Enarr. in Ps. 98, 9; on p. 387)

1. Referring to the sacrifice of Melchizedek (Gen 14:18 ff.):

The sacrifice appeared for the first time there which is now offered to God by Christians throughout the whole world.

(City of God, 16, 22; on p. 403)

Ott cites other references or beliefs of St. Augustine:

A) Interpretation of Jn 6:51b-58 as referring to the Eucharist (p. 374)

B) Christ was both the sacrificing Priest and the sacrificial Gift in one Person (City of God, 10, 20; Ep. cf. 98, 9; on p. 406)

C) The sacrifice of the Mass is that foretold by Malachi [1:10-11] (Tract. adv. Jud. 9, 13; on p. 406)

D) The Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice bringing about remission of sins and the conferring of supernatural gifts (De cura pro mortuis fier. 1, 3; 18, 22; Enchir. 110; on p. 413)

V. William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, v.3, ed., tr. Jurgens, Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1979:

1. He took flesh from the flesh of Mary . . . and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation . . . we do sin by not adoring.

(Explanations of the Psalms, 98, 9; on p. 20)

1. Not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body.

(Sermons, 234, 2; on p. 31)

1. What you see is the bread and the chalice . . . But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the Body of Christ and the chalice the Blood of Christ.

(Sermons, 272; on p. 32)

1. Christ is both the priest, offering Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the sacramental sign of this should be the daily sacrifice of the Church.

(City of God, 10, 20; on p. 99)

1. Not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof.

(Questions of the Hepateuch, 3, 57; on p. 134)

VI. Hugh Pope, St. Augustine of Hippo, Garden City, NY: Doubleday Image, 1961 (orig. 1937):

1. The Sacrifice of our times is the Body and Blood of the Priest Himself . . . Recognize then in the Bread what hung upon the tree; in the chalice what flowed from His side.

(Sermo iii. 1-2; on p. 62)

Read more: catholicfidelity.com

My point being is this is really no the place for that discussion, nor do I see St Augutine as supporting your point.

Amen.

 

[Lincoln7]

Mr Taylor,

I totally disagree on St Ausgtines interpretation by you. However as stated its not the topic of the OP to discuss the Saints of the Catholic Church. For that just opnes the door to what they ALL thought about the real presence. Did you not catch that point above?

I get you I was just quoting him in passing due to his more spiritual understanding of a passage…

The Belgic confession has nothing to do with Rome or what we consider to be valid thus in communion

Understood. I know Rome does not consider my Church an actual valid Church, but I quoted that to show what I think makes a Church.

Well such a verse using those exact words does not exist" Exactly and here reside’s the TRUTH with no excuse or rational. Jesus NEVER stated just pray to me and your sins are forgiven.

With respect sir, this seems a rather big misrepresentation of Protestant thought. Trivially describing it as “just pray to Jesus” is not right. When however a sinners heart is softened by Grace alone as Ephesians states, they are drawn and called by the Father (John 6:44) and recognise the condition they are in; dead in sin (Eph 2:1), and they in earnest place all their trust, faith and hope in Christ alone for salvation, his work on the cross as their substitute (1 Peter 3:18), not in anything they themselves can do (Titus 3:5), and they cry out to him, they are Justified in Gods sight. The righteousness of His Son imputed to them; “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)…

However that is not the topic of this thread Sola Scriptura is.

With respect sir, it’s on the Protestant view of Christs sacrifice…

Peace

Lincs

 

[Lincoln7]

For example with St Augustine, their is abundant body of evidence to his beliefs. Such as.

Sermo 227; on p. 377)

1. Christ bore Himself in His hands, when He offered His body saying: “this is my body.”

(Enarr. in Ps. 33 Sermo 1, 10; on p. 377)

1. Nobody eats this flesh without previously adoring it.

(Enarr. in Ps. 98, 9; on p. 387)

1. Referring to the sacrifice of Melchizedek (Gen 14:18 ff.):

The sacrifice appeared for the first time there which is now offered to God by Christians throughout the whole world.

(City of God, 16, 22; on p. 403)

Ott cites other references or beliefs of St. Augustine:

A) Interpretation of Jn 6:51b-58 as referring to the Eucharist (p. 374)

B) Christ was both the sacrificing Priest and the sacrificial Gift in one Person (City of God, 10, 20; Ep. cf. 98, 9; on p. 406)

C) The sacrifice of the Mass is that foretold by Malachi [1:10-11] (Tract. adv. Jud. 9, 13; on p. 406)

D) The Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice bringing about remission of sins and the conferring of supernatural gifts (De cura pro mortuis fier. 1, 3; 18, 22; Enchir. 110; on p. 413)

V. William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, v.3, ed., tr. Jurgens, Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1979:

1. He took flesh from the flesh of Mary . . . and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation . . . we do sin by not adoring.

(Explanations of the Psalms, 98, 9; on p. 20)

1. Not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body.

(Sermons, 234, 2; on p. 31)

1. What you see is the bread and the chalice . . . But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the Body of Christ and the chalice the Blood of Christ.

(Sermons, 272; on p. 32)

1. Christ is both the priest, offering Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the sacramental sign of this should be the daily sacrifice of the Church.

(City of God, 10, 20; on p. 99)

1. Not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof.

(Questions of the Hepateuch, 3, 57; on p. 134)

VI. Hugh Pope, St. Augustine of Hippo, Garden City, NY: Doubleday Image, 1961 (orig. 1937):

1. The Sacrifice of our times is the Body and Blood of the Priest Himself . . . Recognize then in the Bread what hung upon the tree; in the chalice what flowed from His side.

(Sermo iii. 1-2; on p. 62)

Read more: catholicfidelity.com

My point being is this is really no the place for that discussion, nor do I see St Augutine as supporting your point.

Amen.

No worries, it’s not the topic of this thread. Plus from my perspective; Augustine can be who he was, his views are still subject to the test of Holy Scripture. I see evidence for multiple views in him tbf…

Peace

Lincs

 

[GaryTaylor]

No worries, it’s not the topic of this thread. Plus from my perspective; Augustine can be who he was, his views are still subject to the test of Holy Scripture. I see evidence for multiple views in him tbf…

Peace

Lincs

I’ve been viewing much of the translations of his with a skeptical view as of late. In another conversation relating to another topic, translations have been a bit lacking. So as a general rule I been taking the time to read the original text then re-translate. Otherwise we are just parroting others translations, I found this to be lacking. Just my opinion.

However I understand your point of view, certainly no problem with it. Finding Jesus Christ is a Blessing in itself in this time, though this year has highlighted religious freedom and bought it back to the front to a degree. I believe all the churchs in Christianity need to work to get along much better though. All that Cult, and Negative comments are something I just can’t buy into. Man needs to admit he doesn’t have all the answers and procede in charity and love from their. It would go a long way for world peace today.

Peace

 

[peace2u2]

I’ve heard that one of the marks of a truly great theologian is the ability to preach to a group of 8 year olds and have them understand what you are telling them.

The following is what we as catechist have been taught to teach the children starting in First grade (if their parents have already taught the basics, then what we teach is easier for them to understand) in our Catholic Church about Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross:

God is the Creator of the universe, the earth and all living things. He created us to be in a relationship with Him for God has no other reason for creating than His love and goodness.

We then tell the children about the beautiful garden that God created and the first people, Adam and Eve, and how they were created to take care of God’s garden and that God loved them so much that He even came to visit with them in the garden at the breezy time of the day.

The children learn how sin entered the garden when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and listened instead to the devil’s tempting words and how they lost their trust in God. Then they learn that because God is so holy, Adam and Eve had to leave the beautiful garden but God still took care of them and clothed them and provided everything that they would need in their journey outside of the garden.

Although now Adam and Eve have been separated from God because of sin, God still loves them and desires for their relationship to be restored. So, God has a plan. God’s plan to bring about this healing would be in sending a redeemer, His Son, Jesus, to heal the broken relationship and restore it so we can be in union with Him.

We teach the children that a Redeemer is someone who pays a debt for us. These are the 2 examples we give:

1. If we owed a large amount of money, say a million dollars to someone, an amount of money so large that we could never pay it back. A redeemer would be someone who would pay that money for us so we wouldn’t have to.
2. Say if we disobeyed our parents and we lied about something and then finally got caught. So, your parents punish you and because you lied you can’t go outside and play for a week. But your brother or sister decide that they would take your punishment for you even though they did not do anything wrong. So, instead, they would not be able to go outside and play, but you would.

Jesus is our Redeemer. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins, He paid our sin debt so we can have a restored relationship with God.

The Resurrection of Jesus IS a once for all event. It belongs NOT to the past, But, rather and more importanly, to the EVER-PRESENT REALITY.

Come and meet Jesus at the foot of the Cross. He doesn’t care how broken you, but desires to heal your broken heart.

 

[LegoGE1947]

The following is what we as catechist have been taught to teach the children starting in First grade (if their parents have already taught the basics, then what we teach is easier for them to understand) in our Catholic Church about Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross:

God is the Creator of the universe, the earth and all living things. He created us to be in a relationship with Him for God has no other reason for creating than His love and goodness.

We then tell the children about the beautiful garden that God created and the first people, Adam and Eve, and how they were created to take care of God’s garden and that God loved them so much that He even came to visit with them in the garden at the breezy time of the day.

The children learn how sin entered the garden when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and listened instead to the devil’s tempting words and how they lost their trust in God. Then they learn that because God is so holy, Adam and Eve had to leave the beautiful garden but God still took care of them and clothed them and provided everything that they would need in their journey outside of the garden.

Although now Adam and Eve have been separated from God because of sin, God still loves them and desires for their relationship to be restored. So, God has a plan. God’s plan to bring about this healing would be in sending a redeemer, His Son, Jesus, to heal the broken relationship and restore it so we can be in union with Him.

We teach the children that a Redeemer is someone who pays a debt for us. These are the 2 examples we give:

1. If we owed a large amount of money, say a million dollars to someone, an amount of money so large that we could never pay it back. A redeemer would be someone who would pay that money for us so we wouldn’t have to.
2. Say if we disobeyed our parents and we lied about something and then finally got caught. So, your parents punish you and because you lied you can’t go outside and play for a week. But your brother or sister decide that they would take your punishment for you even though they did not do anything wrong. So, instead, they would not be able to go outside and play, but you would.

Jesus is our Redeemer. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins, He paid our sin debt so we can have a restored relationship with God.

The Resurrection of Jesus IS a once for all event. It belongs NOT to the past, But, rather and more importanly, to the EVER-PRESENT REALITY.

Come and meet Jesus at the foot of the Cross. He doesn’t care how broken you, but desires to heal your broken heart.

Funny thing. I was never taught any of this until I was 26 years of age in 1973. I wasn’t brought up to even go to church. Someone who was a prisoner in the county jail who worked at the place where I had a part time job and was there under the work-release program saw that I was a very depressed person and recommended that I should attend a service at a local Assembly of God. I went a couple weeks later and at the end of the service I was encouraged to respond to an “altar call” I went forward and was with a large group of people who were led to pray a “sinner’s prayer” We were then all herded into a room where we were handed a bunch of literature and someone talked to us about accepting Jesus as our “personal savior” A week later I was encouraged by someone who visited me where I was staying to be baptized. I was scared because the baptism was done in a big tank and we would be immersed. But I wasn’t told why I should be baptized. The pastor of the church was quite charismatic in his preaching and teaching and I became quite attached to him but about a year later he and a group of men were all killed in an airplane accident. Somehow I lost something when those men were killed. Going to that church was not the same after that. So I left and drifted from one church to another for a period of almost 30 years before one day my wife was watching tv and happened upon EWTN and became interested in things Catholic. She learned about RCIA and a Catholic Church near us where an RCIA was being held. We started RCIA and were brought into the Church in 2002 at Easter. For about 6 years my wife and I attended Mass together and suddenly in 2007 my wife said she was going to go to church but not the one I wanted to go to. She reverted back to protestantism. I went with her but I didn’t care for the church because the very first Sunday we went to a Sunday School where the teacher was bashing the Catholic Church. I went back to the Catholic Church but my wife won’t join me. She says she doesn’t get a lot of what the Church teaches and thinks it is a false religion and is “sorry” she dragged me into the Catholic faith. My heart is thus broken. I don’t see how God could do such a hurtful thing to us. But I don’t want to go back to being a Protestant and my wife doesn’t want to be Catholic! I’m sorry about the long post!

 

[stewstew03]

Hi Mr. Taylor,

The quote was from Augustine, Tractate 26 (John 6:41-59): “See ye then, brethren, that you eat the heavenly bread in a spiritual sense” (1)
He goes on to state in section 18 of the same Tractate:
“Consequently, he that dwells not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwells not, doubtless neither eats His flesh [spiritually] nor drinks His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather does he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment” (2)
Which to me seems to be rather similar to the reformed position.

You misunderstand Augustine. See more here.

 

[hn160]

My wife has a problem with “WHY CATHOLICS CONFESS THEIR SINS TO A PRIEST” Don’t they know they can go directly to God? I answered “Yes, they know that” but I handed her a Catholic tract that Hopefully will explain why. And I told her also to ask Jesus since He set His church up that way. Who was it that came up with the idea that God is all you need to confess your sins to? Was it some Protestant in the middle ages or what? I’m imagining Luther, Calvin or one of those guys

Luther did not come up with confess your sins to God, private confession and corporate confession is retained in the Lutheran Church. Confession is made to the pastor and sins are forgiven by the pastor in the stead and command of Christ. Absolution is our Church third Sacrament.

 

[Lincoln7]

You misunderstand Augustine. See more here.

Hi stewstew03,

I think Augustine is rather varied in places. However those quotes don’t necesserily show transubstantiation, a form of presence yes, but not therefore transubstantiation. As I said later, I’m happy to let Augustine be who he was, for his work is still to be tested to Holy Scripture.

Peace

Lincs