Protestant view on christ's sacrifice.

[LegoGE1947]

Luther did not come up with confess your sins to God, private confession and corporate confession is retained in the Lutheran Church. Confession is made to the pastor and sins are forgiven by the pastor in the stead and command of Christ. Absolution is our Church third Sacrament.

My wife is not Lutheran. She is Baptist and they believe that you can go directly to God with no mediator such as priest or pastor and your sins are forgiven by faith in the completed work of Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

Lincs,

I have been visiting other anti-Catholic fundamentalist sites, and they are now discovering the early Church Fathers and Augustine…but blantantly misrepresenting them and our Church. One showed writings of St. Justin the Martyr but did not show his writings describing the Mass in 155 A.D. to the Roman Emperor, in how it was said throughout the ancient Christian world.

What they don’t realize is that every single one of them were still human beings, and reflected on many things, but always submitted their reflections to the Church.

I am now at present preparing materials to teach liturgy and came across some writings by St. Augustine who soundly had the same faith we have today.

I am also seeing the degree Sola Scriptura adherents will go now in trying to methodically contest our Early Church Fathers, including Augustine, who was one of our greatest theologians.

I don’t think the Catholic Church has its logic or take mixed up on its own believers. The New Yorker, Jan 3, 2011, wrote an excellent article on the most incredible and greatest library in the world – the Vatican Library and its immense documentation from our history, as well as mathematics, science, etc…

I don’t think the Church has misunderstood Augustine…

What Protestants don’t understand is just how much they have been indoctrinated to not believe and to subsequently oppose…that is not the movement of the Holy Spirit…but what we have lost in prior vocations, we are now regaining through many lay catechists receiving their Master’s and Ph.D.'s in theology and now emerging with the truth of our faith professing faith in Christ…and in His Church.

We are Ecclesial Deists…[www.calledtocommunion.com…There are Protestants and Mormons who think some how, some where, the true church disappeared, or that Constantine was the one who founded the Catholic Church, when he simply signed the Edict of Milan legitimizing Christianity, and giving Sunday a day of rest, while not becoming baptized until a few days before his death. He was a real emperor and had his ruthless side.

Christ chose Peter as His rock, and moments later, Christ is saying to Peter, ‘Get behind Me, Satan’…He chose human beings to found His Church and to appropriately interpret Scripture, not one man or two…but His Church, involving the Apostles and many of their chosen followers…

Christ stands now as the Lamb of God at the throne of heaven, wounded, but triumphant and resurrected…this is the Christ Who provides us His perpetual sacrifice here at the altar. This belief goes all the way back to the beginning…

At the Last Supper, there was bread and wine…but no sacrificed lamb…but Christ Himself…indicating He would be the Sacrificial Lamb…](www.calledtocommunion.com…There are Protestants and Mormons who think some how, some where, the true church disappeared, or that Constantine was the one who founded the Catholic Church, when he simply signed the Edict of Milan legitimizing Christianity, and giving Sunday a day of rest, while not becoming baptized until a few days before his death. He was a real emperor and had his ruthless side.)

 

[stewstew03]

Hi stewstew03,

I think Augustine is rather varied in places. However those quotes don’t necesserily show transubstantiation, a form of presence yes, but not therefore transubstantiation. As I said later, I’m happy to let Augustine be who he was, for his work is still to be tested to Holy Scripture.

Peace

Lincs

Lincs, respectfully, when Augustine refers to presence, he means the real presence of Christ in the Catholic sense, not in the Reformed sense.

 

[nickybr38]

Lincs,

I have been visiting other anti-Catholic fundamentalist sites, and they are now discovering the early Church Fathers and Augustine…but blantantly misrepresenting them and our Church. One showed writings of St. Justin the Martyr but did not show his writings describing the Mass in 155 A.D. to the Roman Emperor, in how it was said throughout the ancient Christian world.

What they don’t realize is that every single one of them were still human beings, and reflected on many things, but always submitted their reflections to the Church.

I am now at present preparing materials to teach liturgy and came across some writings by St. Augustine who soundly had the same faith we have today.

I am also seeing the degree Sola Scriptura adherents will go now in trying to methodically contest our Early Church Fathers, including Augustine, who was one of our greatest theologians.

I don’t think the Catholic Church has its logic or take mixed up on its own believers. The New Yorker, Jan 3, 2011, wrote an excellent article on the most incredible and greatest library in the world – the Vatican Library and its immense documentation from our history, as well as mathematics, science, etc…

I don’t think the Church has misunderstood Augustine…

What Protestants don’t understand is just how much they have been indoctrinated to not believe and to subsequently oppose…that is not the movement of the Holy Spirit…but what we have lost in prior vocations, we are now regaining through many lay catechists receiving their Master’s and Ph.D.'s in theology and now emerging with the truth of our faith professing faith in Christ…and in His Church.

We are Ecclesial Deists…[www.calledtocommunion.com…There are Protestants and Mormons who think some how, some where, the true church disappeared, or that Constantine was the one who founded the Catholic Church, when he simply signed the Edict of Milan legitimizing Christianity, and giving Sunday a day of rest, while not becoming baptized until a few days before his death. He was a real emperor and had his ruthless side.

Christ chose Peter as His rock, and moments later, Christ is saying to Peter, ‘Get behind Me, Satan’…He chose human beings to found His Church and to appropriately interpret Scripture, not one man or two…but His Church, involving the Apostles and many of their chosen followers…

Christ stands now as the Lamb of God at the throne of heaven, wounded, but triumphant and resurrected…this is the Christ Who provides us His perpetual sacrifice here at the altar. This belief goes all the way back to the beginning…

At the Last Supper, there was bread and wine…but no sacrificed lamb…but Christ Himself…indicating He would be the Sacrificial Lamb…](www.calledtocommunion.com…There are Protestants and Mormons who think some how, some where, the true church disappeared, or that Constantine was the one who founded the Catholic Church, when he simply signed the Edict of Milan legitimizing Christianity, and giving Sunday a day of rest, while not becoming baptized until a few days before his death. He was a real emperor and had his ruthless side.)

This was… a great post to read. I have nothing to add really. I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed reading this comment.

 

[stewstew03]

What Protestants don’t understand is just how much they have been indoctrinated to not believe and to subsequently oppose…that is not the movement of the Holy Spirit…

Yes. To those anti-Catholics on CAF, please meditate upon KG’s words here. As a former evangelical (southern baptist), most of my opposition to Catholicism was rooted in the idea that Catholics were idolaters. In other words, for many years I started with the premise that Catholics were evil, then tried to prove that I was right (and so consumed scripture, and ECF literature, etc. through that lens). As KG noted, this was obviously erroneous.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Nicky…

I will leave the Catholic rigorous, methodical apologetics to the pro’s.

As Bishop Sheen, many have their positions against Catholicism by what they were erroneously taught against her. And their teachers themselves most of the time have not come to the fulness of their faith in Christ either.

The Lord has called us to the fullness of communion, not constant oppositional spirit and dissent. In no way, after 1500 years of true revelation and its corresponding broken humanity…as well as the hidden – the virtuous Catholics they don’t even hear about…will I leave the Church to follow the teachings of solitary men. We see the results, splintered Christianity and loss of faith in church.

 

[KathleenGee]

To deliberately misrepresent is one thing, but then there is cultural…the teachers themselves were raised in it…

And just as the Church reformed itself with the Council of Trent, likewise the protestants need to follow Peter…recall Christ admonishing him in how many times Peter should forgive.

We are called to forgive and to understand and not hold on to stereotypes.

Last night I spoke with my daughter who went into this emerging church that is now publicly being exposed for spiritual and administrative abuse…

People are saying, well, the church is just following the disciplines of the ancient church…Well, there is alot to be said in just how and why the church then disciplined…What is good for the goose is good for the gander…

But the early, emerging ancient church was a seed, and it learned to better discipline as Christ did in time…in the Celtic use of the confessional box

I decided not to address this ‘church’ to her, but spoke to her of my own devotion to the Divine Will of Christ…I could tell she was starting to see through the hype and emotion…this is a church whose leaders blatantly misrepresent our Catholic Church, including its priests who can’t have sex and wear skirts.

Another site had a thread out on how the Church ‘castrates anyone who disagrees’…referring to what happened years ago in Holland…one case…and so on and so on…while ignoring all the great good the Church has done in its own humanity…for humanity.

All we can do is pray for them some times…

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am also seeing the degree Sola Scriptura adherents will go now in trying to methodically contest our Early Church Fathers, including Augustine, who was one of our greatest theologians.

And one the most highly respected by Pope Benedict XVI

Well spoken my sister in Christ

Peace

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses

I think though this thread is turning into a discussion on Augustine and others. I only meant to use him in passing as he interpreted a certain passage how I do… Again asnive said, I’m happy to let him be who he was, take the good from his works and leave that which does not align with Holy Scripture. I also hope I’m not counted as an anti catholic fundamentalist; yes I have rather serious disagreements with Rome, as such I see myself as ‘Protestant’ rather than ‘anti catholic’

If I may respectfully turn the thread back to the topic of Christs sacrifice, again with respect, I’m yet to hear a Catholic interpretation of Hebrews 10:14:

“For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”

They are perfected for all time, not temporarily, but once for all time, which I think is the very clear meaning of this verse, especially in its context on the contrast of the old sacrifices and the one time offering of Jesus Christ. If their is a re application of this to someone in the mass, then surely that means one is saying they were not perfected in the first place?

Romans 4:8: “blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” In Catholic theology, is sin counted against a justified man?

Romans 8:30: “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Thus those who are justified freely by His grace are also glorified. Paul speaks of it as having happened, as after all; “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

It seems clear to me from these that the sacrifice of Christ, perfected people once for all time, they are perfected, clothed in his righteousness; “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Corinthians 5:21. They are justified, and glorified.

As such no re presentation of the sacrifice is needed from the Protestant position, as it would be in contrast to what is taught in scripture.

Peace, respectfully

Lincs.

 

[GaryTaylor]

" take the good from his works and leave that which does not align with Holy Scripture."

If the Saints works didn’t align with Holy Scripture he woudn’t be a Saint. So again we are back to your “opinion”, which are like pennies around here.

You have been given you answer to your question in Hebrews 10:14 and it must be understood in context with the preceeeding verse’s and the rest of Scripture. You must listen and try to understand instead of insisting on being understood.

1. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
2. then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.
3. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

I read it as saying that we don’t need another sacrifice (e.g. a new bull, a new goat, or even new Savior) every time we sin as in the Old Covenant… (as I believe I stated once already in this thread, perhaps I’m mistaken).

We must remember that the author of Hebrews is writing those tempted to return to the Temple sacrifices of the Old Covenant. Christ’s death is sufficient and continues to sanctify us.

However, our sins might be repeated, but Christ’s death cannot be repeated or supplemented by another. Thus we still need to deal with these sins to obtain whats called a State of Grace. And the Lord gave us this path and said DO THIS so that Sins will be Forgiven. And its repeated not once but many times in Scripture.

Remember you said…OH YES we do that in my church:shrug: Well thats WHY you are suppose to do it. Why in the world do you do this at your congregation?

Thus it goes without say that the Holy Sacrifice of the Catholic Mass is a true re-representation commemorated in the “Daily Eucharist”… John 6. Thus the Cross/Calvery has nothing to do with your lack of understanding of the Apostolic Mass, in fact since its done at YOUR congregation you should understand it. However the body and blood of life have everything to do. As has been explained.

We don’t re-crucify Christ are you suggesting you do and thats what we should do?

Peace

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi Mr. Taylor,

We don’t re-crucify Christ are you suggesting you do and thats what we should do?

Not at all. Im saying his sacrifice was so perfect it never needs to be repeated.

However, our sins might be repeated, but Christ’s death cannot be repeated or supplemented by another. Thus we still need to deal with these sins to obtain whats called a State of Grace.And the Lord gave us this path and said DO THIS so that Sins will be Forgiven. And its repeated not once but many times in Scripture.

So is it the Catholic position that the sacrifice of Christ perfects people until they sin? They then need the mass to get their sins forgiven?

For your questions on my position on the Eucharist, see my post #102

peace

Lincs.

 

[sllhouette]

“For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”

Part of your problem might be your translation.
The NIV gives: “For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”
The usccb gives us this: “For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.”

11: Every priest stands daily at his ministry, offering frequently those same sacrifices that can never take away sins.

The priests being talked about are the priests of the old testament. The sacrifice they offer is an animal sacrifice.

12: But this one offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God;

This is what we Catholics believe. Christ offered the one sacrifice as the high priest. In this new sacrifice Christ is the Priest and the Sacrifice. When we celebrate the mass, we remember the sacrifice Christ made at Calvary. That is, we remember the one sacrifice the High Priest made. The man standing before us acts as a secondary priest whose role is to bring the sacrifice to us that we might receive it.

14: For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.

This shows that sanctification/consecration does not happen in a moment, but takes time. What are we doing in that time? Well, we are not “re-sacrificing” Christ. We are however continuously receiving Christ completely into ourselves. Intellectually, spiritually, physically. The sacrifice was once and for all, but our response to that sacrifice does not end.

It appears that you believe that the sacrifice alone was enough to ensure our salvation. Is that the case?

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi Silhouette, thanks for the response.

Part of your problem might be your translation.
The NIV gives: “For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”
The usccb gives us this: “For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.”

This shows that sanctification/consecration does not happen in a moment, but takes time

In verse Chapter 10:10 we find: “And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” As such with verse 14, I don’t think we should take it as meaning a continued process of sanctification in a believers life, as this would be contrary to what verse 10 has already stated. (1). Rather I think it could be seen as
referring to the unfolding of this one, finished action on the cross to each subsequent generation of believers. (2). Also however, seems vs 10 has already stated we have been sanctified, it’s a simple statement of fact here that these people also ‘are sanctified’. (3).

The priests being talked about are the priests of the old testament. The sacrifice they offer is an animal sacrifice.

Indeed, there is no disagreement with us here

The man standing before us acts as a secondary priest whose role is to bring the sacrifice to us that we might receive it.

I dispute the need for a distinct class of priests in the new testament outside of the priesthood of all believers; “you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” 1 Peter 2:5. Jesus himself is the Great high priest.
If the priest brings the sacrifice to you, are you perfected? What happens if you commit a mortal sin? Does the perfection then go? Are they no longer justified? Genuine questions!

It appears that you believe that the sacrifice alone was enough to ensure our salvation. Is that the case?

I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ perfected a specific people, the elect, (Heb 10:10, 10:14), their sins were atoned for on the cross. That by Gods grace alone he brings them to faith in his son (Eph 2:1-10, John 6:44), “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” - Romans 8:30.

Peace

Lincs.

1, 2, 3 - ‘Hebrews and the atonement of Christ, Dr James White, aomin article, 05/31/03’

 

[GaryTaylor]

They then need the mass to get their sins forgiven

No they need the Sacrement of reconciliation and communion thus the Eucharist which is Biblical, just as scripture states in Paul which I showed you. And as Paul states you cannot approach but in a State of Grace.

The Eucharist is the path of forgiveness of sin in all the Apostolic Churchs…all of them, an understanding that Luther, Calvin and Wesley all clearly understood and taught from the start. What proceeded then resulted is a completely different understanding contrary to the Apostolic Churchs and the reformation also, in many, many regards.

We’ve already concluded man still sins, as you also agree with that you do, theres really no way around the dilemma, but one. What we disagee with is you can pray to the Lord and have your sins forgiven. For the oral and written Tradition clearly indicate otherwise.

…

“Remember” you were unable to show the verse in the Bible where…" Jesus specifically states just pray to me and your Sins are Forgiven." We already been through this on “how” sins are forgiven Biblically. Doesn’t exist:shrug:

…

The Priesthood I suppose is debate for another day, your thinking in not all wrong there, however it is not all right either.

Seems the misunderstanding IMHO resides in underestimating Christs words in scripture and the Body and Blood which Forgives Sins. Your sins, that you didn’t commit yet, were not pre-forgiven. Christ left a one time everlasting Covenant with man, finished at the Cross and He becaem the Tree of Life. The Cross was the finished product which HIs Blood poured out cleansed the world in Redemption. Thus the connection from Incarnation and Redemption.

"The simplest way to express what Christ asks us to believe about the Real Presence is that the Eucharist is really He. The Real Presence is the real Jesus. We are to believe that the Eucharist began in the womb of the Virgin Mary; that the flesh which the Son of God received from His Mother at the Incarnation (the Word became Flesh) is the same flesh into which He changed bread at the Last Supper; that the blood He received from His Mother is the same blood into which He changed wine at the Last Supper. Had she not given Him His flesh and blood there could not be a Eucharist.

We are to believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ - simply, without qualification. It is God become man in the fullness of His divine nature, in the fullness of His human nature, in the fullness of His body and soul, in the fullness of everything that makes Jesus Jesus. He is in the Eucharist with His human mind and will united with the Divinity, with His hands and feet, His face and features, with His eyes and lips and ears and nostrils, with His affections and emotions and, with emphasis, with His living, pulsating, physical Sacred Heart. That is what our Catholic Faith demands of us that we believe. If we believe this, we are Catholic. If we do not, we are not, no matter what anyone thinks or states otherwise." Father John A. Hardon S.J.

The Cross itself is the tree of life in Revelation. And hanging from it is Christ Himself whose body is the fruit of the tree of life! And we eat of it when we receive the Sacrament of the Eucharist that lets us live forever! AMEN to THAT! The tree of life is now in the midst of us, representing God’s people having full fellowship with God and full access to God forever. This access and this healing is available to all people, not a select group. Anyone can be part of God’s people and join in this eternal fellowship to come. And it could be found today in the tabernacles throughout the World in the Catholic Church. The Rock Upon which Christ built His church, St Peter and His beloved Apostles. Whom He breathed the into and gave to power to bind and lose your sins. AMEN!!!

So I tell you the truth: he that understands Jesus flesh and blood will finally have eternal life. Otherwise as the Lord stated many time’s… There is NO LIFE. Then he asked His disciples …Now will you leave me too? And where were they going to go For there was No Life no-where else. Unfortunate but true.

 

[KathleenGee]

Linc…

OK…all’s cool…

I would highly recommend to you, ‘Worthy is the Lamb’ by Thomas Nash…that shows the Biblical roots of the Mass and explains the Sacrifice of the Mass in a step by step way going back to Melchizedek.

I have had to go so slow …it was discussed on EWTN last year…for a number of weeks…and I have to reflect practically line by line in some parts.

I also have a number of texts and sources going back to the Eucharist always held as sacred…the Sacrifice of the Lamb…

Note back to Genesis that to encounter the divine, to encounter life…that God has arranged it as an element for human life…so did Satan…offered Eve the fruit of the forbidden Tree of the Knowlwedge of Good and Evil…contradicting God’s offering of the fruit of the Tree of Life, the only good fruit named in the Garden…

How the Tree of Life was led out of the Garden that was separated by the Sword of Fire imposed between Adam and Eve…the manna from heaven…Christ placed in an animal feeder…Melchizedek offering gifts of bread and wine and prophesizing the coming perpetual sacrifice…

Recall the Transfiguration of Christ where Moses and Elijah appeared before the Apostles…Christ coming on the eve of the Resurrection…and His glorious ascension into heaven…where as we see in Revelations He is the Lamb, wounded, but triumphant…

Also the Memorial of the Mass recalls the past event and makes the Sacrifice present to today…as atonement for sin committed today…consider the Daily Sacrifice said around the world, 24/7, that atones for the sins of the world…

When you go to Mass, you leave the world…literally…and become witness to the events read at Mass regarding the Old Testament…then we praise the Lord in Psalms…then we hear the Epistles…that brings us right into the same dynamic and presence of God the early Christians once heard…and then we go to the Gospel…all alive…through the Resurrected Lord…to the Liturgy of the Eucharist…

If we say the bread and wine are purely symbolic…then you are bringing arbitrary symbolism back to the event of the Ressurection and Ascension of Our Lord, which as believers, is actual…same with Him giving us new worship as Memorial in Him and His Body and Blood, Soul, and Divinity…

In the 2nd century, Christians were being observed practicing ‘cannibales’…as described by non-believers attending the worship…and was used to bring prosecution to them…

I don’t have time now to answer your specific questions…

Happy Easter!

 

[Lincoln7]

Mr Taylor,

No they need the Sacrement of reconciliation and communion thus the Eucharist which is Biblical, just as scripture states in Paul which I showed you. And as Paul states you cannot approach but in a State of Grace.

So the sacrifice of Calvary on perfects them only until they sin? They then need to go to the sacrament of reconciliation and the Eucharist?
Does this not clearly contradict Hebrews teaching that it perfects them for all time?

Romans 4:8 “blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” If you commit a venial or mortal sin does the Lord impute that to you? Does he count it to you that is? Who is the blessed man of this verse in Catholic theology?

The Eucharist is the path of forgiveness of sin in all the Apostolic Churchs…all of them, an understanding that Luther, Calvin and Wesley all clearly understood and taught from the start. What proceeded then resulted is a completely different understanding contrary to the Apostolic Churchs and the reformation also, in many, many regards.

Are you suggesting that Luther, Calvin and Wesley all thought that the Eucharist was a propitiatory sacrifice for sin?

We’ve already concluded man still sins, as you also agree with that you do, theres really no way around the dilemma, but one. What we disagee with is you can pray to the Lord and have your sins forgiven. For the oral and written Tradition clearly indicate otherwise

Yes sir, but what I’ve been saying repeatedly now is that all sins of the elect were dealt with on the cross, they are perfected, that is, clothed in Christs righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). As the abve quote from Romans shows, “blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin” They do not need to be re perfected or re justified, the Lord does not count their sin against them.

Remember" you were unable to show the verse in the Bible where…" Jesus specifically states just pray to me and your Sins are Forgiven."

With respect sir, this is a straw man of Sola Fide and the Protestant position, I presented this response, post #112 - “With respect sir, this seems a rather big misrepresentation of Protestant thought. Trivially describing it as “just pray to Jesus” is not right. When however a sinners heart is softened by Grace alone as Ephesians states, they are drawn and called by the Father (John 6:44) and recognise the condition they are in; dead in sin (Eph 2:1), and they in earnest place all their trust, faith and hope in Christ alone for salvation, his work on the cross as their substitute (1 Peter 3:18), not in anything they themselves can do (Titus 3:5), and they cry out to him, they are Justified in Gods sight. The righteousness of His Son imputed to them; “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)”

Your sins, that you didn’t commit yet, were not pre-forgiven

Why then is Hebrews speaking of a perfection for all time? Why does the quote from Romans 4:8 speak of a blessed man whom the Lord won’t count his sins? These passages ony make sense if they speak of Christ having paid for all their sins both past, present and future.
By saying the above quote, you indicate the Lord will ‘count them against them’ unless they recvive forgiveness in the sacrament of reconciliation and the Eucharist.

The overwhelming testimony of scripture indicates the once for all perfecting work of Jesus Christ actually saves his elect. They are clothed in his righteousness, justified by his grace once; “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Romans 8:30.

Peace, I hope the above does not sound aggressive. Going for clarity not aggression

Lincs.

 

[Lincoln7]

Linc…

OK…all’s cool…

I would highly recommend to you, ‘Worthy is the Lamb’ by Thomas Nash…that shows the Biblical roots of the Mass and explains the Sacrifice of the Mass in a step by step way going back to Melchizedek.

I have had to go so slow …it was discussed on EWTN last year…for a number of weeks…and I have to reflect practically line by line in some parts.

I also have a number of texts and sources going back to the Eucharist always held as sacred…the Sacrifice of the Lamb…

Note back to Genesis that to encounter the divine, to encounter life…that God has arranged it as an element for human life…so did Satan…offered Eve the fruit of the forbidden Tree of the Knowlwedge of Good and Evil…contradicting God’s offering of the fruit of the Tree of Life, the only good fruit named in the Garden…

How the Tree of Life was led out of the Garden that was separated by the Sword of Fire imposed between Adam and Eve…the manna from heaven…Christ placed in an animal feeder…Melchizedek offering gifts of bread and wine and prophesizing the coming perpetual sacrifice…

Recall the Transfiguration of Christ where Moses and Elijah appeared before the Apostles…Christ coming on the eve of the Resurrection…and His glorious ascension into heaven…where as we see in Revelations He is the Lamb, wounded, but triumphant…

Also the Memorial of the Mass recalls the past event and makes the Sacrifice present to today…as atonement for sin committed today…consider the Daily Sacrifice said around the world, 24/7, that atones for the sins of the world…

When you go to Mass, you leave the world…literally…and become witness to the events read at Mass regarding the Old Testament…then we praise the Lord in Psalms…then we hear the Epistles…that brings us right into the same dynamic and presence of God the early Christians once heard…and then we go to the Gospel…all alive…through the Resurrected Lord…to the Liturgy of the Eucharist…

If we say the bread and wine are purely symbolic…then you are bringing arbitrary symbolism back to the event of the Ressurection and Ascension of Our Lord, which as believers, is actual…same with Him giving us new worship as Memorial in Him and His Body and Blood, Soul, and Divinity…

In the 2nd century, Christians were being observed practicing ‘cannibales’…as described by non-believers attending the worship…and was used to bring prosecution to them…

I don’t have time now to answer your specific questions…

Happy Easter!

Hi Kathleen Gee,

Thanks for the post. I just wanted to focus on your comments on my understanding of the Eucharist.

I do not subscribe to a purely symbolic view of the Eucharist, see post 102, I put a few quotes from the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith up. I have the reformed understanding of the Supper.

Happy Easter to you too!

Lincs.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Hi Kathleen Gee,

Thanks for the post. I just wanted to focus on your comments on my understanding of the Eucharist.

I do not subscribe to a purely symbolic view of the Eucharist, see post 102, I put a few quotes from the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith up. I have the reformed understanding of the Supper.

Happy Easter to you too!

Lincs.

Blessed Easter to all!

 

[GaryTaylor]

They then need to go to the sacrament of reconciliation and the Eucharist

Yes

Romans 4:8

“All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ . . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not “imputing” their trespasses unto them . . . For he hath made him to be a [sin-offering], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (II Corinthians 5:18, 19, 21).

Luther, Calvin and Wesley thoughts

Here’s what they thought.

“Even though it seems unbelievable that Christ’s flesh, separated from us by such great distance, penetrates to us, so that it becomes our food, let us remember how far the secret power of the Holy Spirit towers above all our senses, and how foolish it is to wish to measure his immeasurableness by our measure.” Calvin

Calvin believed Christ’s words of institution to be symbolic. When saying “this is my body” Christ was saying that it was his body, not in a literal sense but in a sacramental sense. “Christ’s words are not subject to the common rule and ought not to be tested by grammar.” Calvin was wrong Christ never stated this was SYMBOLIC much to the contrary is His own words.

Luther believed in the real presence. He chose not to define the “how” as in transub.

John Wesley “Methodist Communion”:

Wesleys recognized the power of God available in the Lord’s Supper and urged their
followers to draw on that power by frequent participation. The grace available in and through the sacrament was active in conviction, repentance and conversion, forgiveness, and sanctification. John Wesley described the Lord’s Supper as “the grand channel whereby the grace of his Spirit was conveyed to the souls of all the children of God” (“Sermon on the Mount—Discourse Six,” III.11). During the years in which Methodism was beginning and growing, Wesley himself communed an average of four to five times a week. His sermon “The Duty of Constant Communion” emphasizes the role of the sacrament in the lives ofChristians in ways that are keenly meaningful today.

sins of the elect were dealt with on the cross, they are perfected, that is, clothed in Christs righteousness

The Sins of All Mankind were dealt with on the Cross as He became Sin.

With respect sir, this is a straw man. By saying the above quote, you indicate the Lord will ‘count them against them’ unless they recvive forgiveness in the sacrament of reconciliation and the Eucharist…

No-where have I said this. Though you seem to think you were forgiven all your future sins. However, your own words contradict this theology. You admit you continue to live in this physical world and continue to sin, what do you do? You pray, why would you do this if Calvery already paid for your future sins. So you see the stawman is YOURS.

perfecting work of Jesus Christ actually saves his elect.

I agree, we disagree as to HOW.

Once you understand your own contradiction. we can move foward. Seems your stuck on this same sentence

And I am being polite with you. I hope you don’t take it any other way either. The HOW we disagree with.

We all have to work out our own Salvation. I wish you well on your path and my prayers are with you.

Peace, I hope the above does not sound aggressive. Going for clarity not aggression

And I the same. God Bless you on your journey of Salvation.

Here’s an outside work of the Apostle Andrew.

Andrew said: To God Almighty, who alone is true, I bring sacrifice day by day; not the smoke of incense, nor the flesh of bellowing bulls, nor the blood of goats, but sacrificing a spotless lamb day by day on the altar of the cross; and though all the people of the faithful partake of His body and drink His blood, the Lamb that has been sacrificed remains after this entire and alive. Truly, therefore, is He sacrificed, and truly is His body eaten by the people, and His blood is likewise drunk; nevertheless, as I have said, He remains entire, and spotless, and alive:thumbsup:

Familiar ring hey? All the Apostolic Churchs follow this path.

Thus my recommendation to comprehension in the CCC 616-618 verses, Dr Scott Hahn, and the Doctrine of Life Death and Judgement of the CC. And start reading the truth of “all” the Apostolic Churchs. Or we can agree to disagree, no biggie, you found CHRIST a Blessing.

Been great chatting with you, have a great Easter. Suffice to say we disagree.

Peace

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi Gary, yeah indeed, thanks for all the discussion! I sense were reaching a natural close here, il make this a sort of ‘closing statement’ or whatever…
(for the benfit of anyone who reads this, my question was: “So the sacrifice of Calvary on perfects them only until they sin? They then need to go to the sacrament of reconciliation and the Eucharist?”

Yes

My closing statement here then is I still don’t see how this aligns with Heb 10:14 on their perfection *for all time. *(by perfection I have taken this to mean all their sins have been forgiven and they stand perfect in Gods sight.)

All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ . . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not “imputing” their trespasses unto them . . . For he hath made him to be a [sin-offering], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (II Corinthians 5:18, 19, 21).

Amen Closing statement here: I think that Romans 4:8 demonstrates this truth too. Those in Christ as Paul states in vs 21 above are clothed in Christs righteousness, as such they are justified, if justified then glorified also. It will happen. They are in other words; perfected, once for all. If they do sin, they do not lose justification as their sins are not counted to them.

Here’s what they [certain reformers] thought.

Calvin did not ascribe to a purely memorialist interpretation of the supper, he was a firm believer in the presence there of Christ. But in a spiritual way. See here for example: the-highway.com/supper1_Calvin.html
I’m not at all debating with you the importance and beauty of the Eucahrist. I thought in your last post you were stating they held to it as a propitiatory sacrifice for sin…

The Sins of All Mankind were dealt with on the Cross as He became Sin.

Discussion for another time

Though you seem to think you were forgiven all your future sins.

I believe that one who has the righteousness of Christ imputed to their account does not have their sins counted towards them (Rom 4:8, 2 Corinthians 5:18-21) All their sins were paid for by Christ on his cross.

Here’s an outside work of the Apostle Andrew.

The acts of Andrew, fascinating reading, but not canon. It’s dating seems hard, anywhere from second century to third, but I shall leave it to the scholars

Indeed, we disagree, but yes thanks again for all the discussion. I shall keep you in prayers also!

Lincs