Protestant view on christ's sacrifice.

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Lincs…

Have very heavy work right now…I will try to answer…but it entails alot of events from the OT…

Apostles were not called bishops, presbyters, priests…but their charism is apostolic…to send forth…and after them came the bishops, etc…the apostles were already chosen in advance of Christ’s coming…

We have to see the Church as a seed that became a tree…Hebrews actually gives us answers…from the way we have practiced our faith…seeing the Eucharist as divine goes all the way back, and St. Paul speaks of this sacred meal in Corinth, telling those to not take it unworthily as there are those doing so, and getting sick…I read of one case where the person died receiving the Eucharist unworthily…

Thanks for referencing ‘calledtocommunion’…you have to go back to our mindset…which is well explained in Ecclesial deists…will find the link later…sorry
 
stewstew03 said:
My apologies, cloudman, but this post is incoherent… if you don’t mind elaborating in a clear and succinct manner it might contribute to the discussion.

Thanks!
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Well…what do you think of that hypothetical situation? Is that situation possible? Is it possible that the Son could intercede with the Father and not be successful in his intercession?
 
cloudman said:
Well…what do you think of that hypothetical situation? Is that situation possible? Is it possible that the Son could intercede with the Father and not be successful in his intercession?
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Sure it is.

Unless you think that every single human person is already saved? Is that your position?

Or does each and every human person have to do something in order to be saved? (The Catholic position.)
 
PRmerger said:
Sure it is.

Unless you think that every single human person is already saved? Is that your position?

Or does each and every human person have to do something in order to be saved? (The Catholic position.)
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This is also the position of many evangelicals. You have to invite Jesus into your heart and accept him as savior.
 
LegoGE1947 said:
This is also the position of many evangelicals. You have to invite Jesus into your heart and accept him as savior.
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Indeed.

So it appears that there are millions of Catholics and millions of evangelicals who would answer, in response to cloudman’s hypothetical, a resounding, “Yes, it is possible that the Son could intercede with the Father and not be successful in his intercession.”

That’s why Christians believe in the existence of hell.
 
PRmerger said:
Indeed.

So it appears that there are millions of Catholics and millions of evangelicals who would answer, in response to cloudman’s hypothetical, a resounding, “Yes, it is possible that the Son could intercede with the Father and not be successful in his intercession.”

That’s why Christians believe in the existence of hell.
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In the entire three years of Christ’s public ministry there were only a few hundred converts. So would you call him a success or a failure? There is the issue of man’s free will that either permits or keeps a person from being saved.
 
LegoGE1947 said:
In the entire three years of Christ’s public ministry there were only a few hundred converts. So would you call him a success or a failure? There is the issue of man’s free will that either permits or keeps a person from being saved.
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If I were basing Christ’s success on quantity rather than quality, well then it must be said that Christ died a failure.

Thankfully, that is not the Catholic position.
 
Lincoln7 said:
Hi Sllhouette,

Here the differing views are seen…

The sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, from a Protestant perspective is that it was once for all, in accordance with Heb 7:27, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:28, Heb 10:10…
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This is the Catholic view as well! 👍

Christ’s sacrifice was offered once, for all, as the source of our eternal salvation.

The Mass simply makes it present. What is happening once, 2000 years ago, is happening “from the rising of the sun, even to its setting” in eternity.

If it weren’t, then this one-time event 2000 years ago could not atone for your sins today. It would only have been able to atone for the sins of those lucky few who lived 2000 years ago, right?
 
cloudman said:
Well…what do you think of that hypothetical situation? Is that situation possible? Is it possible that the Son could intercede with the Father and not be successful in his intercession?
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Your hypothetical makes little sense.

You have a random guy named ‘Bob’ and you have Jesus “in the courts of heaven interceding with the Father on behalf of Bob.” What do you mean by “courts of heaven”? And is Jesus interceding with the Father on behalf of Bob, or is Jesus interceding alone on behalf of Bob?

Then you have the Father looking at Jesus and saying “I am sorry Jesus… You did everything in your power to save Bob, but your sacrifice was insufficient because Bob failed to…(fill in the blank).”

What if Bob is instead Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden? And what if Bob or Adolf or Osama failed to… [fill in the blank with ‘accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior’]?
 
PRmerger said:
Sure it is.

Unless you think that every single human person is already saved? Is that your position?

Or does each and every human person have to do something in order to be saved? (The Catholic position.)
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I am advocating neither position. What I am saying is that Christ is successful when he intercedes for someone. So if someone goes to hell, then Christ must not have been interceding for them.
 
cloudman said:
I am advocating neither position. What I am saying is that Christ is successful when he intercedes for someone. So if someone goes to hell, then Christ must not have been interceding for them.
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What qualities would a human person have that would induce Christ to not intercede for him?
 
stewstew03 said:
Your hypothetical makes little sense.

You have a random guy named ‘Bob’ and you have Jesus “in the courts of heaven interceding with the Father on behalf of Bob.” What do you mean by “courts of heaven”? And is Jesus interceding with the Father on behalf of Bob, or is Jesus interceding alone on behalf of Bob?

Then you have the Father looking at Jesus and saying “I am sorry Jesus… You did everything in your power to save Bob, but your sacrifice was insufficient because Bob failed to…(fill in the blank).”

What if Bob is instead Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden? And what if Bob or Adolf or Osama failed to… [fill in the blank with ‘accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior’]?
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Do the sheep accept their shepherd or is it the shepherd that chooses his sheep?
 
PRmerger said:
What qualities would a human person have that would induce Christ to not intercede for him?
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I think you are asking the wrong question. The question we need to ask is…why would Christ intercede for anybody?

The hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. Every imagination of the thoughts of the heart of men is only evil continually.

Why would Christ intercede for anybody if that is the sum total of our qualities?
 
cloudman said:
I think you are asking the wrong question.
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I don’t think so.

Is there some qualities that a person has that would induce Christ not to intercede for him?

Do you not know the answer, cloudman?
 
cloudman said:
I think you are asking the wrong question. The question we need to ask is…why would Christ intercede for anybody?

The hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. Every imagination of the thoughts of the heart of men is only evil continually.

Why would Christ intercede for anybody if that is the sum total of our qualities?
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Sounds very profound, cloudman, but… what, exactly, are you talking about? Justification? Are there any particular scripture verses you’d like to provide?
 
PRmerger said:
I don’t think so.

Is there some qualities that a person has that would induce Christ not to intercede for him?

Do you not know the answer, cloudman?
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OK…I’ll give you my answer to that question. There is no quality that would prevent Christ from interceding on anyone’s behalf. If Christ’s intercession on our behalf is conditioned on the possession of certain qualities, then that means that God is a respecter of persons. For this reason we know that God only respects the intercession of His Son.
 
stewstew03 said:
Sounds very profound, cloudman, but… what, exactly, are you talking about? Justification? Are there any particular scripture verses you’d like to provide?
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It sounds profound because those are not my words, but God’s words. I essentially quoted Genesis 6:5 and Ecclesiastes 9:3.
 
cloudman said:
OK…I’ll give you my answer to that question. There is no quality that would prevent Christ from interceding on anyone’s behalf. If Christ’s intercession on our behalf is conditioned on the possession of certain qualities, then that means that God is a respecter of persons. For this reason we know that God only respects the intercession of His Son.
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Then you believe no one is in hell?
 
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