Is it? John 15:16 seems to indicate that it is Christ that chooses those that are His.
I have no doubt you can quote the bible from cover-to-cover cloudman. However, I’m still confused as to the point that you’re trying to make. Are you just here to tell us that we are all sinners and need Jesus? I don’t think anyone here would disagree with you. I hope that you’re not challenging the idea that Catholics are Christians, are you?
Since that’s outside the scope of this discussion, my advice to you is that you start a thread on predestination.
No, I believe that many people are in hell. Christ came to save those given to Him by the Father. Those same people are the sheep, who Christ explicitly says he laid His life down for. Christ never said that He laid down His life for the goats or the snakes.
And yet you say that there is “no quality that would prevent Christ from interceding on anyone’s behalf.” All human persons are being interceded for by Christ.
So… the good news of the Gospel is that Christ may or may not intercede for you?
I am not challenging anyone’s personal salvation. I just saw a thread asking for Protestant (name removed by moderator)ut and I decided to register and share my thoughts on what I believe the sacrifice of Christ actually accomplished. Predestination is simply the belief that Christ did everything necessary to accomplish salvation leaving no room for even the possibility of error or failure. That is what the sacrifice of Christ accomplished. It cannot fail to save.
Well, they are reconciled when we understand that Christ does not intercede for everyone. Christ only intercedes for those given to Him by the Father.
Catholics believe in predestination as well, though it differs from the Reformed position.
The good news is that Christ came to save dead sinners. He came to save people who can’t do anything to please the Father. So Christ offered Himself up on our behalf so that we could be conformed into the image of His Son. The good news is that the cross effectively ensured that this process will happen without the potential for failure. The cross did not make this transformation a possibility. The cross made this transformation a future reality.
I would have to imagine that the major difference deals with perseverance of the saints. I am not sure that I understand all the differences, though.
Agreed. But I think you responded to PRMerger that not everyone is saved, and yet we are all “dead sinners.” Are you making a distinction between justification and salvation?
inherit everlasting life.
in Christ for our salvation because Christ finishes a work once it is started.
What does it mean to “know” that God will bring that work to completion?
Fair enough.
stewstew kind-of-sort-of beat me to the punch on this one, cloudman, but I am going to ask you anyway and I hope you won’t take offense to it. How do you know…not just feel, but objectively know that Christ died for your sins and intercedes at the right hand of the Father for you?
Faith is not synonymous with belief, PR. I hope you don’t think by James’ statement that even the demons believe that he means the demons trust and rest in the finished work of Christ for the forgiveness of their sins and reconciliation with God, do you?
Please read what cloudman said. He used the word “believe” not “faith”. I did not interchange them. You did, Iggy.
I am sure you know he meant believer, which equals a Christian
Except that this makes his statement false. All Christians do NOT inherit everlasting life, Iggy.I am sure you know he meant believer, which equals a Christian
If you say so.I am sure you know he meant believer, which equals a Christian