Protestant view on christ's sacrifice.

[PRmerger]

Following on from my above, as they have been freed from all penalty due to sin, there is no longer any imputation of sin to them, as the verses I quoted previously indicate.

If this is so, and it’s eternal, why is Paul praying for the “perfection” of the Corinthians if they’ve already been perfected in 2 Cor 13:9?
[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 13:9[/BIBLEDRB]

Are the Corinthians Christians who are saved and have been “freed from all penalty due to sin”?

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi Prmerger,

If this is so, and it’s eternal, why is Paul praying for the “perfection” of the Corinthians if they’ve already been perfected in 2 Cor 13:9?

I think we could have a cracking discussion on this… Mostly due to the wording of the passage in Corinthians: the word translated as ‘perfection’ in the Douay and others is ‘katartisis’ which apparently is used no where else in the New Testament (1). It’s derivative verb ‘katartizō’ however is common (2). Blue letter bibles lexicon here: blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2675
With the above in mind and looking at the whole of 2 Corinthians in context I prefer the ESV’s rendering of ‘restoration’, that these Corinthians be restored to the truth of the Gosepl and re affirm Paul’s teachings, be perfected and conformed to the image of Christ. this does not mean I think that if Paul is speaking to justified believers they have lost it, but such serious sins as spoken of in the letter do serious harm to their growth.

I think here we’re seeing usages of similar words for different things; in the passages in Hebrews I think it’s clear that by speaking of ‘perfected’ the author, in their contrast of the old and new, intends for it to demonstrate a remission of all sin and guilt. Here it seems to refer more to the idea of growing in the Lord. Does not The Lord say to ‘be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect’ in Matt 5:48? Or Paul in Phillipians 3:12 stating “Not that I have already obtained this [resurrection] or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own.” by which he affirms he is still in a sinful world and still sins. So in the end I think context is everything for this, with in Hebrews it being clear what the text refers too; Christ has earnt their perfection and they are free from the guilt of sin. Here, that meaning also being clear; one of progressive putting on of the new nature, made more Christ like every day.

It’s more a justification discussion in many ways…

Regards

Lincs

1 & 2 - Barnes’ notes on the bible, bible.cc/2_corinthians/13-11.htm

 

[PRmerger]

Hi Prmerger,

I think we could have a cracking discussion on this… Mostly due to the wording of the passage in Corinthians: the word translated as ‘perfection’ in the Douay and others is ‘katartisis’ which apparently is used no where else in the New Testament (1). It’s derivative verb ‘katartizō’ however is common (2). Blue letter bibles lexicon here: blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2675
With the above in mind and looking at the whole of 2 Corinthians in context I prefer the ESV’s rendering of ‘restoration’, that these Corinthians be restored to the truth of the Gosepl and re affirm Paul’s teachings, be perfected and conformed to the image of Christ. this does not mean I think that if Paul is speaking to justified believers they have lost it, but such serious sins as spoken of in the letter do serious harm to their growth.

Fair enough.

And what say you, then, about just a few verses later in 2 Cor 3:18, where it states, “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another.”

Why does St. Paul tell saved Corinthians that they are being “changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another"? Does your theology speak to our changing by degrees? Or does it speak of a one time event that occurs when we ask Jesus into our hearts? It does appear that this “saved in a single instance” does not reconcile with Paul’s profession that we are being changed.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi Prmerger,

“And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Hebrews 10:12. The context of vs 14 and indeed the whole passage indicates this perfection spoken of is in this life.

And just so there’s some clarity regarding the CC’s position, the Church has indeed maintained the existence of what it calls a “realized eschatology”. Yes, our salvation has been achieved.

But, that beautiful Catholic both/and head presents itself here, in these verses, which declare that salvation/sanctifcation/eternal life is something to be hoped for, something in our future.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:29[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 9:43-47[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Titus 1:2[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Titus 3:7[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Lincoln7]

Fair enough.

And what say you, then, about just a few verses later in 2 Cor 3:18, where it states, “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another.”

Why does St. Paul tell saved Corinthians that they are being “changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another"? Does your theology speak to our changing by degrees? Or does it speak of a one time event that occurs when we ask Jesus into our hearts? It does appear that this “saved in a single instance” does not reconcile with Paul’s profession that we are being changed.

Hi Prmerger,

I view justification as a one time event (Romans 5:1), a monergistic act (Eph 2:8, John 6:44), in which someone is grafted into Jesus Christ, their sins having been atoned for by him on the cross, (1 Peter 3:18), with his perfect righteousness imputed to them (Romans 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:21), all of this for the Glory of God alone (Romans 9:23), freely by his grace (Eph 2:8).

Your are quite right that a one time event of ‘asking Jesus into our heart’ that goes no further than this mere intellectual profession would be utterly foreign to the NT. But that is not what I adhere too. Those whom the Lord justifies, he also glorifies: “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Romans 8:30. This glorification will happen according to Paul. The elect will be conformed to the image of Christ after their justification.

But, that beautiful Catholic both/and head presents itself here

For me this is also true, for the justified believer will put off his old self and put on the new, he will be glorified on the last day.

Regards

Lincs

 

[PRmerger]

Below are more verses which proclaim that perfection is not achieved in this life, but in our heavenly life, should we remain faithful:
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 25:46[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]John 3:36[/BIBLEDRB]Jn 3:36; Rom 2:6-10; 1 Tm 6:18-19; Jas 1:12; 2 Tm 2:12).
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:6-10[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 6:18-19[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Timothy 2:12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]James 1:12[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

Your are quite right that a one time event of ‘asking Jesus into our heart’ that goes no further than this mere intellectual profession would be utterly foreign to the NT. But that is not what I adhere too. Those whom the Lord justifies, he also glorifies: “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Romans 8:30. This glorification will happen according to Paul. The elect will be conformed to the image of Christ after their justification.

Regards

Lincs

How does one know, then, if he is justified, if it’s more than “asking Jesus into our heart”?

What assurance objectively do you have? That is, that any Christian would be able to see in you, that tells us that you are justified, and that another man is not?

 

[Lincoln7]

PRmerger,

"1. Assurance comes from faith in the promises of God.
2. Assurance comes from the testimony of the Holy Spirit testifying to our spirits that we are children of God.
3. Assurance comes from “a serious and holy pursuit of a clear conscience and of good works” (from link below)

For example we read “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God” Romans 8:16.
Or here: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13.

The Canons of Dort speaking on assurance are summarised here:
thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/01/10/assurance-the-reformed-confessions-1/

May I also ask for your views on assurance/ those of your church? Respectfully

Regards

Lincs.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger,

"1. Assurance comes from faith in the promises of God.
2. Assurance comes from the testimony of the Holy Spirit testifying to our spirits that we are children of God.
3. Assurance comes from “a serious and holy pursuit of a clear conscience and of good works” (from link below)

Amen!

Not sure, though, if this post was in response to my question how you can know you’re saved, if it doesn’t necessarily happen when you ask Jesus into your heart?

For example we read “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God” Romans 8:16.
Or here: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13.

Amen!

May I also ask for your views on assurance/ those of your church?

Of course!

My Church proclaims that

I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),

but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),

and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).

Like the apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13).

 

[Lincoln7]

Not sure, though, if this post was in response to my question how you can know you’re saved, if it doesn’t necessarily happen when you ask Jesus into your heart?

I put the whole ‘asking Jesus int your heart’ thing as it is often a common response to the question of ‘what is salvation’ or what is the gospel. I first used it followed by saying that if this is it with no transformed life after we have a problem… So yeah it was in response, but in a possibly garbled and slightly confused way, apologies

and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).

The difference here though is the ‘hope’ part, im also unsure where the Corinthians passage is directly related…

Assurance however, may not always be there, but this does not change their justifed status.

Regards

Lincs

 

[PRmerger]

Assurance however, may not always be there, but this does not change their justifed status.

Fair enough.

So one does not always have assurance, but once one is justified it is eternal–is this a fair assessment of your paradigm?

 

[Lincoln7]

Fair enough.

So one does not always have assurance, but once one is justified it is eternal–is this a fair assessment of your paradigm?

Once the Lord has justified one of his elect, he will also glorify them (Rom 8:30) as is written elsewhere; “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” (Phil 1:6)

From Dort:

“FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 11. The Scripture moreover testifies that believers in this life have to struggle with various carnal doubts, and that under grievous temptations they do not always feel this full assurance of faith and certainty of persevering. But God, who is the Father of all consolation, does not suffer them to be tempted above that they are able, but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that they may be able to endure it (1 Cor 10:13), and by the Holy Spirit again inspires them with the comfortable assurance of persevering.” (1)

“FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 6. But God, who is rich in mercy, according to His unchangeable purpose of election, does not wholly withdraw the Holy Spirit from His own people even in their grievous falls; nor suffers them to proceed so far as t lose the grace of adoption and forfeit the state of justification, or to commit the sin unto death or against the Holy Spirt; nor does He permit them to be totally deserted, and to plunge themselves into everlasting destruction.” (2)

Regards

Lincs
1 & 2 - spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/dort.htm

 

[PRmerger]

Once the Lord has justified one of his elect, he will also glorify them (Rom 8:30) as is written elsewhere; “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” (Phil 1:6)

Okay.

But one can’t know if he’s justified (here, “know” is in the sense of being assured that he is)?

 

[Lincoln7]

“FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 10. This assurance, however, is not produced by any peculiar revelation contrary to or independent of the Word of God, but springs from faith in God’s promises, which He has most abundantly revealed in His Word for our comfort; from the testimony of the Holy Spirit, witnessing with our spirit that we are children and heirs of God (Rom 8:16); and lastly, from a serious and holy desire to preserve a good conscience and to perform good works. And if the elect of God were deprived of this solid comfort that they shall finally obtain the victory, and of this infallible pledge of eternal glory, they would be of all men the most miserable.” - spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/dort.htm
One can know one will achieve eternal glory, which as Paul states, follows in those whom the Lord justifies.

Lincs

 

[PRmerger]

“FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 10. This assurance, however, is not produced by any peculiar revelation contrary to or independent of the Word of God, but springs from faith in God’s promises, which He has most abundantly revealed in His Word for our comfort; from the testimony of the Holy Spirit, witnessing with our spirit that we are children and heirs of God (Rom 8:16); and lastly, from a serious and holy desire to preserve a good conscience and to perform good works. And if the elect of God were deprived of this solid comfort that they shall finally obtain the victory, and of this infallible pledge of eternal glory, they would be of all men the most miserable.” - spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/dort.htm
One can know one will achieve eternal glory, which as Paul states, follows in those whom the Lord justifies.

Lincs

I can see what you believe in theory.

But of what consequence is it *in the real life *of a Christian, who isn’t certain that he’s justified at the moment he has accepted Christ into his heart?

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Okay.

But one can’t know if he’s justified (here, “know” is in the sense of being assured that he is)?

As a somewhat neutral observer on this thread (being that Roman Catholic and Reformed Baptist soteriology being discussed), I must ask though, and this is more directed to Lincoln and his posting of the Canons of Dordt, it seems to me, there’s a heavy emphasis here on assurance from within…the assurance of faith, the assurance of good works, the assurance of election. I don’t understand those viewpoints. It doesn’t comport with the Biblical data, and frankly, goes back to the non-assurance that limited atonement gives.

 

[Lincoln7]

I can see what you believe in theory.

But of what consequence is it *in the real life *of a Christian, who isn’t certain that he’s justified at the moment he has accepted Christ into his heart?

This seems to me to be a far more pastoral question, as such I’m not so sure to be honest. I’m a firm advocate of community in the church, such people should seek advice and guidance from their elders and other mature believers I suppose

IggyAntiochus,

As a somewhat neutral observer on this thread (being that Roman Catholic and Reformed Baptist soteriology being discussed), I must ask though, and this is more directed to Lincoln and his posting of the Canons of Dordt, it seems to me, there’s a heavy emphasis here on assurance from within…the assurance of faith, the assurance of good works, the assurance of election. I don’t understand those viewpoints. It doesn’t comport with the Biblical data, and frankly, goes back to the non-assurance that limited atonement gives.

I’m not quite reformed baptist, its certainly there though… I currently belong to the newfrontiers family of churches: newfrontierstogether.org/ As such we can happily adhere to most reformed creeds, I like the 1689 baptist confession a fair bit… Luther from my understanding (which is limited, no pun intended), emphasised far more, assurance based on Christ, aka externally? Anywhere good in Luther you know of on this would be much appreciated. I found his short handbook on prayer to his barber a real blessing.

Lincs.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

I’m not quite reformed baptist, its certainly there though… I currently belong to the newfrontiers family of churches: newfrontierstogether.org/ As such we can happily adhere to most reformed creeds, I like the 1689 baptist confession a fair bit… Luther from my understanding (which is limited, no pun intended), emphasised far more, assurance based on Christ, aka externally? Anywhere good in Luther you know of on this would be much appreciated. I found his short handbook on prayer to his barber a real blessing.

Lincs.

Mea culpa. I was in an SBC church that was Reformed, so, I suppose just an assumption since the language was the same

Luther emphasized assurance externally, yes, because that is the only place that it can truly be found. The best place to go for his understanding of assurance is his commentary on Galatians, where he discusses the topic at length. The Lutheran confessions in the Book of Concord are a good place to go as well.

Ultimately, though, our assurance comes from God’s promises to us being true. But these promises are not nebulous, intellectual or emotional understandings. They come directly from His word and His sacraments. Faith is merely that which believes those promises to be true. Faith, in and of itself does not assure itself. Faith is a lack of reliance upon one’s will, emotions, mind, state, etc. It is looking away from itself, not toward itself. Most assuredly, they are not located in predestination (for how does one know one is predestined? This is the achilles heel of Calvinism when it comes to assurance. Not only do I have to believe, I have to believe I believe.)

 

[Lincoln7]

IggyAntiochus,

Mea culpa. I was in an SBC church that was Reformed, so, I suppose just an assumption since the language was the same

No worries.

Luther emphasized assurance externally, yes, because that is the only place that it can truly be found. The best place to go for his understanding of assurance is his commentary on Galatians, where he discusses the topic at length. The Lutheran confessions in the Book of Concord are a good place to go as well.

I shall do just this thing. Interestingly my housemate has a copy which is dated from sometime prior to 1721 which is pretty cool…

Ultimately, though, our assurance comes from God’s promises to us being true. But these promises are not nebulous, intellectual or emotional understandings. They come directly from His word and His sacraments. Faith is merely that which believes those promises to be true. Faith, in and of itself does not assure itself. Faith is a lack of reliance upon one’s will, emotions, mind, state, etc. It is looking away from itself, not toward itself. Most assuredly, they are not located in predestination (for how does one know one is predestined? This is the achilles heel of Calvinism when it comes to assurance. Not only do I have to believe, I have to believe I believe.)

Generally I like most of the above, I don’t really want a massive Lutheran/Refomred debate as in my experiences trying to cram 500 or so years of discussion into CAF comment boxes is a tough one! I’m not saying however I’m jumping ship from Calvinism, far from it. Beggars all recently had an iteresting post on this one (assurance): beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/jonathan-edwards-vs-john-calvin-got.html
I think what it demonstrates, is painting it all as “Calvinism” is a tad broad, as within reformed Christians there are differing expressions on things.

Regards

Lincs.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

IggyAntiochus,
Generally I like most of the above, I don’t really want a massive Lutheran/Refomred debate as in my experiences trying to cram 500 or so years of discussion into CAF comment boxes is a tough one! I’m not saying however I’m jumping ship from Calvinism, far from it. Beggars all recently had an iteresting post on this one (assurance): beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/jonathan-edwards-vs-john-calvin-got.html
I think what it demonstrates, is painting it all as “Calvinism” is a tad broad, as within reformed Christians there are differing expressions on things.

Regards

Lincs.

That is probably true, vis a vie the comment boxes being able to fill the disagreements (much less the disagreements with Roman Catholicism lol). However, it isn’t really relegated to Calvinism v. Lutheranism. Really, the problem of reflective faith is an issue for all Protestant denominations that descend from Reformed theology. Calvinism, I think, just adds the additional difficulty of an atonement that one has no objective way to determine as being for the sinner who may have a troubled conscience or a lack of assurance.

I agree that Calvin’s answers are a bit more ecclesiastical than the later Puritan writers, like Edwards. However, his problem is still much the same. Calvin did talk in sacramental language, but he emptied the power of the sacraments and located it still on election. That is to say, for Calvin, the sacraments did nothing for you unless you were one of the elect. So, therefore, these understandings of the Scriptures will then produce and endless and unquenchable desire to prove that one is among the elect.