Protestant View

[ALLFORHIM]

Here is a longer answer.
Is eternal security a “license” to sin?"

Answer: The most frequent objection to the doctrine of eternal security is that it supposedly promotes the idea that Christians can live any way that they want to - and still be saved. While this is “technically” true, that is not the “essence” of eternal security. A person who has truly accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Savior “can” live a sinful life - but he or she “will” not do so. We must draw a distinction between how a Christian should live - and what a person must do in order to receive salvation.

The Bible is abundantly clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:6). A person is saved by faith - faith alone. The moment a person truly believes in Jesus Christ, he/she is saved and secure in that salvation. Salvation is not gained by faith, but then maintained by works. The Apostle Paul addresses this issue in Galatians 3:3, “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” If we are saved by faith, our salvation is also maintained and secured by faith. We cannot earn our own salvation. Therefore, we cannot earn the maintenance of our salvation either. It is God who maintains our salvation (Jude verse 24). It is God’s hand that holds us firmly in His grasp (John 10:28-29). It is God’s love that nothing can separate us from (Romans 8:38-39).

Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that we must maintain our own salvation by our own good works. This is completely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because of Christ’s merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we must obey God’s Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation is equal to saying that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus’ death was absolutely sufficient to pay for all of our sins - past, present, and future, pre-salvation and post-salvation (Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

So, with all that said, does this mean that a Christian can live any way he/she wants to and still be saved? This is essentially a hypothetical question, because the Bible makes it clear that a true Christian will not live “any way he/she wants to.” Christians are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). Christians demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), not the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). 1 John 3:6-9 clearly states that a true Christian will not live in continual sin. In response to the accusation that grace promotes sin, the Apostle Paul declared, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1-2).

Eternal security is not a “license” to sin. Rather, it is the security of knowing that God’s love is guaranteed for those who trust in Christ. Knowing and understanding God’s tremendous gift of salvation accomplishes the opposite of giving a “license” to sin. How could anyone, knowing the price Jesus Christ paid for us, go on to live a life of sin (Romans 6:15-23)? How could anyone who understands God’s unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God’s face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him or her a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ. “No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him” (1 John 3:6).

 

[irishmac]

But I thought that Protestants did not differentiate between sins. A sin is a sin no matter what it is. Curse, Lie & Murder all the same. So to take it one step further… If the “man” murders his wife and then has a heart attack… What happens to his soul?

First off, we cannot know what happens to a person’s soul after death. That would be the personal judgement levied by Christ.

Secondly, in the first scenario, an OSAS believer is walking away from church, having prayed for forgiveness to God, stumbles and trips, and inadvertantly “curses” and then is hit by a car. Where would he go? He would be destined to end up in Heaven as a believer in Christ, but he/ she would be subject to pass through a state of purgation. The reason I say this is because, in your scenario, the “sin” isn’t a sin, because sin requires three things (correct me if I’m wrong): premeditation, willful intent, and knowledge that it is an offense against God. Somebody could trip and accidentally blurt out a “curse” of some type. It was an accident, a reaction, an instinct. Therefore, I don’t think that the person committed a sin in the first scenario. Therefore, the soul would be Heaven-bound, after a little purging.

Thirdly, in the second scenario, the “man” (I like how you put that word in quotes, questioning his real manhood) who murders his wife and then has a heart attack might be bound for damnation because murder implies willful intent and premeditation, and we all know it is an offense against God, so there you go.

Now, OSAS believers believe that once a person accepts Christ as Lord and Saviour, then their soul is bound for Heaven and free from the fear of eternal damnation. They believe that once the acceptance occurs, then the soul of the person will be filled with the grace of God, and because of this grace, they will “produce good fruits.” However, when an OSAS believer does something not-so good, he might be deemed to never have truly accepted the Lord. Case in point, the Evangelical reverend who was caught having relations with a male prostitute. (Don’t remember his name, sorry!)

Hey, lorathon, I just saw that you go to the same church as I do. I’ve been going there all my life. Across from the Indian school, right? PM me, I might know you.

 

[EHRAM]

Although I am Catholic now, I was Protestant for decades. My understanding as a Protestant was that Christ offers grace and forgiveness of all sins, past, present and future. However, if, after accepting this gift, one deliberately continues to sin, it is uncertain whether one really received the gift of salvation.

Also, at least some Protestants believe in a version of Purgatory, but they don’t call it that. They refer to a “cleansing by fire” that takes place after death, based on 1 Co 3:10-15. Unlike Purgatory, though, this cleansing by fire is instantaneous and does not necessarily involve suffering. The believer will then be rewarded for good works done while alive, now that he has been purified from all works that were sinful or even just inconsequential. A related quip is “Only one life, 'twill soon be past, only what’s done for Christ will last.”

 

[lorathon]

However, when an OSAS believer does something not-so good, he might be deemed to never have truly accepted the Lord.

I have heard this before and I have always found this to seem like a dodge. It seems like a circle to me. You accept, Live pure, then…oops I sinned…well I guess I never believed in the first place. I have been lying to myself, others and God the whole time because I am human and have err’d.

 

[Vaclav]

A few questions:

1. OK, if we assume that the idea of OSAS is essentially correct (for the sake of argument) and that one who is “born-again” can technically commit egregious sins, but will not because of his or her new relationship with Christ, is there not a real danger there of developing a society of finger-pointers? By that I mean, does that not provoke a community of people who whisper to one another that “Jim is not really saved,” “did you hear about Ethel, she isn’t really saved?”
2. Is there a danger that Jesus becomes so central that the other elements of the Trinity become forgotten? Is this form of Protestantism that relies on a “personal relationship with Jesus” non-Trinitarian?

I ask that, not as an insult, but because I attended a Christian Church (that was its name) as a child and was never taught about the Holy Spirit. It was as if Pentacost never existed. They would mention the Holy Ghost only rarely and I remember thinking that it must be a frightening creature

Later, when I became a Lutheran I learned about the Trinity.

 

[Lampo]

John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Did this exercise end with the death of the Apostles?

 

[Lampo]

I always find myself asking the same question just in a different manner. “What is your protestant view or interpretation.” The problem is, there is no authoritative body(i.e. Magisterium) that represents all of protestantism. Presbyterian, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, on and on…all claim to go by the bible alone and be 100% correct. If one doesn’t claim to be 100% correct, they usually say something like they only disagree on the “non-essentials.”

 

[timkrewson]

Let me help you out. I am a protestant. Do you think you remember every sin you commit? I mean have you confessed to your priest things you did as baby? Even if you did(good memory by the way)
the point is that the Bible does not state that you must account for every sin. It is is faith that gets you there(to heaven) and not works. It is true a stained soul can not enter heaven but the Bible whoever believes. So in closing as long as you have faith and are a believer you can go to heaven.

 

[Lampo]

Let me help you out. I am a protestant. Do you think you remember every sin you commit? I mean have you confessed to your priest things you did as baby? Even if you did(good memory by the way)
the point is that the Bible does not state that you must account for every sin. It is is faith that gets you there(to heaven) and not works. It is true a stained soul can not enter heaven but the Bible whoever believes. So in closing as long as you have faith and are a believer you can go to heaven.

I understand what you are saying - Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. To answer you question: No, I don’t remember every sin I’ve committed and the catholic church doesn’t require me to do so. And actually it is grace that gets you to heaven. Here is what is required when making a confession: vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm#IV

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I have heard this before and I have always found this to seem like a dodge. It seems like a circle to me. You accept, Live pure, then…oops I sinned…well I guess I never believed in the first place. I have been lying to myself, others and God the whole time because I am human and have err’d.

Hi,
I/we still all sin. The difference here is we are trying to walk away from a life full of sin. Perpetual sin which would lead me to believe that if someone is perpetually sinning and has no desire to stop and turn away from that sin then how could they possibly love God. If one loves God then they will try their hardest to please Him.

The bible does tell us that our hearts are wicked and can deceive us. A person can be doing and saying all the right things on the outside but on the inside their motives may not be right. Only God and that person truly knows.

 

[lorathon]

Thank you for all of the posts.

Not sure I understand the viewpoint yet. But I guess I am a little closer.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

1. OK, if we assume that the idea of OSAS is essentially correct (for the sake of argument) and that one who is “born-again” can technically commit egregious sins, but will not because of his or her new relationship with Christ, is there not a real danger there of developing a society of finger-pointers? By that I mean, does that not provoke a community of people who whisper to one another that “Jim is not really saved,” “did you hear about Ethel, she isn’t really saved?”

Yes

1. Is there a danger that Jesus becomes so central that the other elements of the Trinity become forgotten? Is this form of Protestantism that relies on a “personal relationship with Jesus” non-Trinitarian?

I suppose but I know no one who doesnt believe in the trinity who also believes OSAS.

I ask that, not as an insult, but because I attended a Christian Church (that was its name) as a child and was never taught about the Holy Spirit. It was as if Pentacost never existed. They would mention the Holy Ghost only rarely and I remember thinking that it must be a frightening creature

Me too. I grew up in an Episcopal church and never heard the salvation message let alone who the HS was. I learned all of that from a baptist church and then even more at my non-denom church.
Many churches fall away from biblical teaching and just teach a watered down doctrine.

Later, when I became a Lutheran I learned about the Trinity.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I understand what you are saying - Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. To answer you question: No, I don’t remember every sin I’ve committed and the catholic church doesn’t require me to do so. And actually it is grace that gets you to heaven. Here is what is required when making a confession: vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm#IV

Do you believe it is only by grace or do you believe it is grace through faith?

 

[Cari]

Hi,
I/we still all sin. The difference here is we are trying to walk away from a life full of sin. Perpetual sin which would lead me to believe that if someone is perpetually sinning and has no desire to stop and turn away from that sin then how could they possibly love God. If one loves God then they will try their hardest to please Him.

I’m not trying to be nitpicky, but how does love of God/avoidance of sin come into the Protestant view? Love of God is a work, it is something I do. Avoiding sin/commiting sin is a work. If the Protestant view is that I have to have faith in the Divinity of Christ and his Sacrifice on the cross, and accept him as my Lord and Savior, then whether you love God or not is beside the point. Your actions, sinful or virtuous after that acceptance is beside the point.

If, according to the Protestant view of Sola Fide, one simply has to have faith in Christ, and works, while nice, aren’t what’s going to get you to Heaven, then one can accept Christ, go out and commit every horrible sin known to man, and still attain Heaven. Heck, you could even hate God and still attain Heaven, if all that’s required for salvation is Faith in Christ.

If I’m wrong (which I hope I am ), then could someone please explain to me how Sola Fide doesn’t mean this? I don’t understand how the concepts of Sola Fide and “backsliding” can exist together.

Thanks! (And I don’t think I’ve hijacked the thread, but if this is way off the OP’s original question, forgive me)

 

[Contarini]

I’m not trying to be nitpicky, but how does love of God/avoidance of sin come into the Protestant view? Love of God is a work, it is something I do. Avoiding sin/commiting sin is a work. If the Protestant view is that I have to have faith in the Divinity of Christ and his Sacrifice on the cross, and accept him as my Lord and Savior, then whether you love God or not is beside the point. Your actions, sinful or virtuous after that acceptance is beside the point.

If, according to the Protestant view of Sola Fide, one simply has to have faith in Christ, and works, while nice, aren’t what’s going to get you to Heaven, then one can accept Christ, go out and commit every horrible sin known to man, and still attain Heaven. Heck, you could even hate God and still attain Heaven, if all that’s required for salvation is Faith in Christ.

If I’m wrong (which I hope I am ), then could someone please explain to me how Sola Fide doesn’t mean this? I don’t understand how the concepts of Sola Fide and “backsliding” can exist together.

Thanks! (And I don’t think I’ve hijacked the thread, but if this is way off the OP’s original question, forgive me)

You are assuming that the only reason for doing anything is to go to heaven.

Protestants believe that we should be motivated by the love of God rather than simply by the desire to earn God’s favor.

So far so good–but Protestants are divided (no surprise) as to how justification and sanctification are related. AllforHim will give you the Baptist view. Here are three other views representative of large sections of Protestantism:

Lutheran (i.e., the original Protestant view): salvation depends on faith alone, and good works are our expression of thanksgiving to God. But repentance and striving to lead a holy life will always accompany faith, and if you simply give up on trying to be holy, you will not long remain a believer. (In other words, Lutherans do not believe in OSAS). This may reflect Luther’s own views more than those of confessional Lutherans, but since Lutheranism as I’ve studied it talks a lot about repentance, confession of sin, etc., I’m pretty sure that they continued something like this teaching.

Reformed/Calvinist: Only those whom God has chosen for eternal life ever believe in Christ. They cannot fall away–or more accurately they will not fall away. They may fall into sin from time to time but they will always be miserable in sin and will eventually repent and return to God.

Wesleyan/Methodist: Sola Fide refers to God’s forgiveness of our sins when we repent and believe. For final salvation, good works are necessary.

Edwin

 

[lorathon]

Thanks! (And I don’t think I’ve hijacked the thread, but if this is way off the OP’s original question, forgive me)

I don’t think the thread has been hihacked. I believe this is the root of my question.

How do Protestants believe they achieve salvation with sin still staining their souls at the time of death?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I don’t think the thread has been hihacked. I believe this is the root of my question.

How do Protestants believe they achieve salvation with sin still staining their souls at the time of death?

I hope this helps:

Question: “What is salvation? What is the Christian doctrine of salvation?”

Answer: Salvation is deliverance from danger or suffering. To save is to deliver or protect. The word carries the idea of victory, health, or preservation. Sometimes, the Bible uses the words saved or salvation to refer to temporal, physical deliverance, such as Paul’s deliverance from prison (Philippians 1:19).

More often, the word salvation concerns an eternal, spiritual deliverance. When Paul told the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved, he was referring to the jailer’s eternal destiny (Acts 16:30-31). Jesus equated being saved with entering the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:24-25).

What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath”; that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.

Who does the saving? Only God can remove sin and deliver us from sin’s penalty (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).

How does God save? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, God has rescued us through Christ (John 3:17). Specifically, it was Jesus’ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that achieved our salvation (Romans 5:10; Ephesians 1:7). Scripture is clear that salvation is the gracious, undeserved gift of God (Ephesians 2:5, 8) and is only available through faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12).

How do we receive salvation? We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the gospel—the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13). Then, we must believe—fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).

A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12), and is dependant on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.

 

[Sabda]

I hope this helps:

Question: “What is salvation? What is the Christian doctrine of salvation?”

**How do we receive salvation? We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the gospel—the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13). Then, we must believe—fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).**A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12), and is dependant on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.

Not to derail the thread but the bolded part would deny salvation to an awful lot of people who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel messgae.

As far as my understanding of the sins covered part (never having been a Protestant) is basically this:

According to some Protestants we are out in our garden working. When it’s time to go home we head up to the house. However, while we were out in the garden we got dirty. Now according to my understanding of this. God stops us from going into the house. We need to be made presentable before entering the house. So God gives us clean clothes to put on which make us presentable.

The problem with the above scenario is that the body is never made clean. Therefore, you are putting clean clothes on a dirty body. That of course means that the clothes are going to get dirty when they come in contact with the dirty body. As we know the Bible says that nothing unclean can enter the house. That means that you have to be clean. If the body is never made clean than you still can not enter the house no matter how clean the clothes were when you first put them on.

Now according to the Catholic (and some others) we are out in our garden. While we are out working in our garden we get dirty. When it’s time to go home we head up to the house. God stops us from entering the house. He gives us clean clothes to put on. BUT first he cleans our bodies so that we put clean clothes on a clean body. Which means that we are truly made clean all the way around.

Put in this light I don’t understand how people can except the first scenario. You still would not get into heaven because you are still dirty. The Bible is very clear that you have to BE clean. Because nothing UNclean can enter heaven.

 

[Catholig]

Well, I know, but if one dies with mortal sin on his soul, there is no purgatory for that person. If in the above scenario the person curses by taking the Lord’s name in vain, he dies in a state of mortal sin.

Yes, I guess. I still hope that god will be merciful, but…you have to always be prepared in case you die.

Catholig

 

[JoeyWarren]

Situation:

A male Protestant that believes in “Once Saved Always Saved” and does not believe in confession or purgatory is walking down the street with a clean soul (in their opinion) having just prayed for forgiveness. He steps off of the curb and trips, curses (sinning) and is hit by a car without having time to ask God for forgiveness for the curse.

What is the Protestant view on what happens to this man’s soul? He has died with a stain on his soul. There is no where for him to go to cleanse it (Purgatory). A soul MAY NOT enter heaven if stained. What happens to his soul?

Protestant viewpoint only please.

I will give the view I was taught when I was a Protestant in the 'Holy Roller" genre.

The general protestant view is that the soul goes to hell. The path and gate are narrow. There is no room to wiggle. The mere cursing is a denial of God via a denial of his commandments.

These same protestants believe that if you did sin, you were not really saved in the first place, but in the same breath they will use the term “backslide” to make an excuse for someone that has sinned including themselves.

On the other hand, a child that dies before the age of reason goes to heaven because they trust in God to do the right thing. And they believe that the right thing is for God to take the child to heaven.