Protestant views on incorruptible saints?

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Offdoodykcrn said:
I can only speak for myself, but respectfully - a few of the accounts of saints are a bit odd. The issue of treasuring body parts as holy relics has always alluded me. I had not heard of Dona Isabel de Carom, but when I read what she did, I didn’t think ‘that must be a sign from God’ - I thought, ‘ew… cannibalism…’ (shudder). I’m still trying to get the image of a bloody toe (from a corpse that had been dead for two years) in her mouth out of my mind.

I understand the value of passing on the stories of inspiring people to future generations. I do not doubt their veracity, and I respect the devotion of those who find their faith strengthened by them. Personally, my faith is rooted in Christ and his miracles are enough to keep my faith strong.
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Its true a lot of the people need signs and its surprising if you notice the incorrupt bodies have been located in several different parts of the world.

Even St. Thomas doubted Jesus.

John 20:25 says, “So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord!’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.’”

so I think Jesus knows that people would need visual proof for others to believe and hence they have taken place. But their stories are truly inspiring. I believe there are well over 100 incorrupt bodies.
 
Godisgreat23 said:
Its true a lot of the people need signs and its surprising if you notice the incorrupt bodies have been located in several different parts of the world.

Even St. Thomas doubted Jesus.

John 20:25 says, “So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord!’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.’”

so I think Jesus knows that people would need visual proof for others to believe and hence they have taken place. But their stories are truly inspiring. I believe there are well over 100 incorrupt bodies.
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John 20:29 gives the take-home lesson of the story: "Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

During this exile of ours we have mainly to walk in faith, not in knowing. God does miracles, but according His Divine wisdom. The faith itself is a miracle, donated to us by the Holy Sipirit. And when you have that faith, all visions, appritions, healings, whatever, become of a secondary or no importance for keeping that faith.
 
Attejohannes said:
John 20:29 gives the take-home lesson of the story: "Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

During this exile of ours we have mainly to walk in faith, not in knowing. God does miracles, but according His Divine wisdom. The faith itself is a miracle, donated to us by the Holy Sipirit. And when you have that faith, all visions, appritions, healings, whatever, become of a secondary or no importance for keeping that faith.
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That’s a great verse but you got to realise there are 7 billion people ( different religions, different beliefs) around the world and I’m sure not many or hardly know about this amazing phenomenon. If you read the apparitions people themselves asked for a miracle so that they could believe…

Pretty much shows that how people who were present over there didn’t want to believe Unless they have seen a miracle. Whether its Fatima, Lourdes or any apparitions.
 
benjohnson said:
I have to admit that I’ve never even considered the idea.

But even though I’m a scientist, I never like putting miracles “to the test.” The true miracle is the increase of faith in a world that desperately in need of it. For example, I have a rather dim view on Lourdes and Fatima, but I’ve visited both holy places and have an a high regard for the faith and love of the pilgrims - for me, that’s the miracle.

If you want my scientific opinion on incorruptible saints, I’d grudgingly give it to you if you bought me several beers and I knew that my opinion wouldn’t damage your faith. But if you want my “Lutheran” opinion, it would be to use these miracles, I would say rejoice in them and use them as a way of pointing to the Gospel and Christ.
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Doesn’t incorruptibility defy science?. some of the miracles that have taken place can’t be explained by science. Even the Eucharistic miracles…

PS How many years does it normally take a body to decompose?
 
Godisgreat23 said:
That’s a great verse but you got to realise there are 7 billion people ( different religions, different beliefs) around the world and I’m sure not many or hardly know about this amazing phenomenon. If you read the apparitions people themselves asked for a miracle so that they could believe…

Pretty much shows that how people who were present over there didn’t want to believe Unless they have seen a miracle. Whether its Fatima, Lourdes or any apparitions.
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I agree with my Lutheran brother, Ben. I you rejoice in these miracles and find them constructive to your faith, I have no objections. As far as you do not build your faith on them to that degree that it would collapse, if a natural explanation were found. The Shroud of Turin, if genuine, would be a wonderful evidence of the “Gospel truth”. If, however, it were convincingly shown to be a medieval fake (albeit a masterpiece), that should not affect ouf faith in Christ.

People, who themselves saw the miracles of Christ did not believe in Him and were ready to crucify Him. What convinced the believers was not His miracles but His Word. And in His story of the rich man and Lazarus, He said: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”. God’s written and preached word, now and then, is the miracle that eventually will convince those, who are going to be saved.
 
Godisgreat23 said:
But don’t you think God choose their souls over others to remain that way. They must have done something special to please god have their souls in corrupt. They Lived a life that would be an example to others…
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Godisgreat23 said:
Doesn’t incorruptibility defy science?. some of the miracles that have taken place can’t be explained by science. Even the Eucharistic miracles…

PS How many years does it normally take a body to decompose?
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Incorruption does not defy science, it is simply unexplainable by it.

A body may decay in days if exposed to water and warm temperature. Conversely, in deep cold or dryness, he or she may last for centuries.

When President Lincoln was exhumed in 1900, he was said to just look asleep, except for red and blue dust on his clothes and hands (coming from the flag that disintegrated over him.)

In the 1980s, a sailor who died on a British exploration ship was exhumed from the Canadian icecap where he had lain since 1847. Except for a black face, the man looked as if normally alive.

So corruption and incorruption have a whole constellation of variables.

Alleluia and ICXC NIKA
 
I didn’t know about incorruption as a protestant, until I started investigating Catholicism. When I found out about it I thought, that is some weird and freaky stuff. 😃 I think it did increase my faith a bit, but I’m not one to put a lot of stock in signs.
 
As an European sometimes totally fed up with our EU policies and the present euro-crisis, I tend to think that my Faith would be much more enhanced by an example of an incorruptible Italian politician than by an incorruptible Italian Saint:D

That said, I have a profound respect of ordinary, hard working and honest Italians I have learned to know by my many professional contacts with that country.
 
Science can not explain this. One has to ask why God allows incorruptible Catholic saints?
 
I would say incorruptability does defy science. I would also add that Eucharistic miracles to this discussion. I would suspect that people are comfortable enough in there own circumstance to give it serious thought… it is too easy to dismiss it as a fluke or propaganda.

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I haven’t thought about it much. I think I read something in a Dostoyevsky book that mentioned it, but I don’t remember that part as well as the divine healing stuff that turned out not to be divine healing. I do make some unflattering assumptions at times- there may be a less miraculous explanation, this is a little bit like God of the Gaps, maybe some of the tradition behind the stories is fueled by some combination of gullible laity and corrupt leadership. I’m not entirely proud of all that, but I do feel somewhat justified in occasional reluctance to take everything at face value. In theory, I would try not to go overboard with a consistent pattern of suspicion and doubt, but I don’t really interact with this at all so that’s just a theory.
 
Monergistic said:
I haven’t thought about it much. I think I read something in a Dostoyevsky book that mentioned it, but I don’t remember that part as well as the divine healing stuff that turned out not to be divine healing. I do make some unflattering assumptions at times- there may be a less miraculous explanation, this is a little bit like God of the Gaps, maybe some of the tradition behind the stories is fueled by some combination of gullible laity and corrupt leadership. I’m not entirely proud of all that, but I do feel somewhat justified in occasional reluctance to take everything at face value. In theory, I would try not to go overboard with a consistent pattern of suspicion and doubt, but I don’t really interact with this at all so that’s just a theory.
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When you start with the perspective that Christ established an One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and promised to lead it to all Truth, to be with it until the end of time, you begin to understand that he can do anything that he chooses to call people to faith, repentance and conversion. When in salvation history has a limit been placed on what God can and can not do? Eucharistic miracles? Certainly. This happens at every Mass. Incorruptible Saints? Why not, they are by definition most Holy. Marian apparitions? Who better to lead us to Christ than his mother. She said to “do whatever he tells you.” That is still her message today.

Also, if you trust that the bible you are reading is the inerrant and inspired Word of God, then you implicitly trust the infallibility of the Catholic Church that canonized it for you. Otherwise, it’s “just a theory” that the books in your bible are God’s Word. 👍
 
All I know is that our God is capable of anything! He alone creates and sustains life and death. We have finite minds restricted to time as we understand. ALL thongs are possible with our Lord so never “box” Him in. On the other hand we need Holy discernment and I am so grateful in having the Church help us in that area.
Blessings,
mlz
 
Monergistic said:
I haven’t thought about it much. I think I read something in a Dostoyevsky book that mentioned it, but I don’t remember that part as well as the divine healing stuff that turned out not to be divine healing. I do make some unflattering assumptions at times- there may be a less miraculous explanation, this is a little bit like God of the Gaps, maybe some of the tradition behind the stories is fueled by some combination of gullible laity and corrupt leadership. I’m not entirely proud of all that, but I do feel somewhat justified in occasional reluctance to take everything at face value. In theory, I would try not to go overboard with a consistent pattern of suspicion and doubt, but I don’t really interact with this at all so that’s just a theory.
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But aren’t you curious about their lives? How did they pray? How much they prayed? what sacrifices they made? . There are quite a few saints who suffered stigmata - the wounds of Christ.
 
Porknpie said:
Science can not explain this. One has to ask why God allows incorruptible Catholic saints?
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There are some orthodox saints who are incorrupt but the number of incorrupt saints in catholic church is much higher…
 
Porknpie said:
Science can not explain this. One has to ask why God allows incorruptible Catholic saints?
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According to this article, Saint Bernadette’s face and hands have wax coverings.

*A precise imprint of the face was molded so that the firm of Pierre Imans in Paris could make a wax mask based on the imprints and on some genuine photos to be placed on her body. This was common practice for relics in France as it was feared that the blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public. Imprints of the hands were also taken for the presentation of the body and the making of wax casts.
Maybe the Catholic Church has more so-called incorruptibles because non-Catholic religions/sects don’t exhume bodies looking for them?
 
cornbread_r2 said:
According to this article, Saint Bernadette’s face and hands have wax coverings.

*A precise imprint of the face was molded so that the firm of Pierre Imans in Paris could make a wax mask based on the imprints and on some genuine photos to be placed on her body. This was common practice for relics in France as it was feared that the blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public. Imprints of the hands were also taken for the presentation of the body and the making of wax casts.
Maybe the Catholic Church has more so-called incorruptibles because non-Catholic religions/sects don’t exhume bodies looking for them?
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Please provide your reference that the Church exhumes people for the purpose of checking for incorruptibility (not that it would matter). Pick your most likely non Catholic incorruptibles and see. I place no limits on what God can do. Who do you want to exhume? Calvin? Joseph Smith?

The Internet is full of doubters and haters of the Catholic Church. The Church has said that the body has not been preserved. One can believe the Church … Or not. Of course if you choose to disbelieve the Catholic Church, you have to wonder if the bible in your hand truly is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. One can then go to the next incorruptible and explain that away too. St John Vianney below. 🤷
 
Godisgreat23 said:
There are some orthodox saints who are incorrupt but the number of incorrupt saints in catholic church is much higher…
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I dont limit God’s miracles but the question is still a good one…,why does God allow (so many) incorruptible Catholic Saints ?
 
Unfortunately, apart from the Shroud, and perhaps Fatima/Lourdes, most Protestants rarely or never hear of miraculous claims of any sort in the RCC.

And the ‘incorrupt saints’ stories probably sound eerie and macabre to any who happen across such reports.

It doesn’t help that most of the books on this topic are generations old, written in a style unappreciated by modern readers. You can tell by some of the comments here that Protestants are often just now hearing these cases and don’t know the details.

Another thing–Protestants rarely know how thoroughly the Church investigates any miracle before it is deemed “worthy of belief”. They think these miracle claims are akin to those of Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, and Smith Wigglesworth. The latter reportedly once began to awaken someone from the dead while in their casket–then repented of the idea, realising the departed had been embalmed and would suffer grievously from the effects of the embalming fluid if restored to life.

In other words, non-Catholics need to know more about how we establish certain claims as ‘miraculous’, or they think we’re pushing hokum. And while miracles can bolster a faith, remember the parable of Abraham’s Bosom: “They will not believe even if one rose from the dead”.
 
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