Protestant vs Evangelical Catholic

[ffg]

Starwarsfan2, sorry I missed this earlier - welcome to CAF!!!

I hope you enjoy your stay, it’s great to have more folks here.

Take care,

Mike

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

The following churches are identical in their theological beliefs and share full pulpit and altar fellowship. That is, they cooperate with each other fully - even to the point of exchanging clergy, just as your various sui juris churches technically can (although few do).

Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ghana (ELCG)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Kenya (ELCK)
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Liberia (ELCL)
The Lutheran Church of Nigeria (LCN)
Free Evangelical - Lutheran Synod in South Africa (FELSISA)
Lutheran Church in Southern Africa (LCSA)
Eglise Luthérienne du Togo (ELT)
China Evangelical Lutheran Church (CELC)
The Lutheran Church - Hong Kong Synod (LCHKS)
India Evangelical Lutheran Church (IELC)
Japan Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church in Korea (LCK)
Gutnius* Lutheran Church (GLC)
The Lutheran Church in the Philippines (LCP)
Lanka Lutheran Church (LLC)
Evangelisch-Lutherse Kerk in België (ELKB)
Den evangelisk-lutherske Frikirke i Danmark (ELFD)
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of England (ELCE)
Église Évangélique Luthèrienne - Synode de France (EEL-SF)
Selbständige Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche (SELK-Germany)
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia (ELCL)
Consistory of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Lithuania (CELCL)
The Lutheran Church in Norway
Igreja Evangélica Luterana Portuguesa
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ingria in Russia (ELCIR)
Siberian Evangelical Lutheran Church (SELC)
Iglesia Evangélica Luterana Argentina (IELA)
Igreja Evangélica Luterana do Brasil (IELB)
Iglesia Luterana Confesional de Chile (ILC-CHILE)
Iglesia Luterana en Guatemala (ILG)
Sinodo Luterano de Mexico (SLM)
Iglesia Evangélica Luterana del Paraguay (IELP)
Iglesia Luterana de Venezuela (ILV)
Lutheran Church - Canada (LCC)
The American Association of Lutheran Churches (TAALC)
Eglise Evangelique Lutherienne D’Haiti (ELCH)
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS)

But, depending on definitions, it may or may not be entirely correct to say they are all the same denomination, as they do use slightly differing forms of church governance and/or particular liturgies. This is part of the reason the “35,000 Protestant splinter groups” argument is absurd. These 37 legally incorporated bodies are, effectively, identical and entirely fraternal.

That’s a good point. If we reckoned the Catholic Church according to the same standards, it would be 23 (?) distinct denominations for each of the sui-juris churches! So to be fair to Protestants, we ought to divide 35,000 by at least 23. See, there are only 1,521 Protestant denominations!

I’m kidding of course, but the reason figures like that are thrown about in apologetics is not the precise number, but to point out that there are many different Protestant groups that diverge significantly in teaching.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The following churches are identical in their theological beliefs and share full pulpit and altar fellowship. That is, they cooperate with each other fully - even to the point of exchanging clergy, just as your various sui juris churches technically can (although few do).

Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ghana (ELCG)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Kenya (ELCK)
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Liberia (ELCL)
The Lutheran Church of Nigeria (LCN)
Free Evangelical - Lutheran Synod in South Africa (FELSISA)
Lutheran Church in Southern Africa (LCSA)
Eglise Luthérienne du Togo (ELT)
China Evangelical Lutheran Church (CELC)
The Lutheran Church - Hong Kong Synod (LCHKS)
India Evangelical Lutheran Church (IELC)
Japan Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church in Korea (LCK)
Gutnius* Lutheran Church (GLC)
The Lutheran Church in the Philippines (LCP)
Lanka Lutheran Church (LLC)
Evangelisch-Lutherse Kerk in België (ELKB)
Den evangelisk-lutherske Frikirke i Danmark (ELFD)
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of England (ELCE)
Église Évangélique Luthèrienne - Synode de France (EEL-SF)
Selbständige Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche (SELK-Germany)
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia (ELCL)
Consistory of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Lithuania (CELCL)
The Lutheran Church in Norway
Igreja Evangélica Luterana Portuguesa
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ingria in Russia (ELCIR)
Siberian Evangelical Lutheran Church (SELC)
Iglesia Evangélica Luterana Argentina (IELA)
Igreja Evangélica Luterana do Brasil (IELB)
Iglesia Luterana Confesional de Chile (ILC-CHILE)
Iglesia Luterana en Guatemala (ILG)
Sinodo Luterano de Mexico (SLM)
Iglesia Evangélica Luterana del Paraguay (IELP)
Iglesia Luterana de Venezuela (ILV)
Lutheran Church - Canada (LCC)
The American Association of Lutheran Churches (TAALC)
Eglise Evangelique Lutherienne D’Haiti (ELCH)
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS)

But, depending on definitions, it may or may not be entirely correct to say they are all the same denomination, as they do use slightly differing forms of church governance and/or particular liturgies. This is part of the reason the “35,000 Protestant splinter groups” argument is absurd. These 37 legally incorporated bodies are, effectively, identical and entirely fraternal.

SO why are all these denominations not one, why have so many splinters? And in a place like the USA, have versions of each one for each country of origin?

 

[SyroMalankara]

For starters, the Episcopal Church and ELCA are in full communion. That means that they fully recognize each other as holding true doctrines and as members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It does not mean that they are identical theologically, but then, Eastern Catholics have frequently assured me that they aren’t the same as Latins theologically either. There is legitimate diversity within the Church, right? To be in full communion means recognizing that each other’s differences fall within that diversity.

Except some Episcopalians are not in full communion with themselves, let along any ELCA.

The Episcopal Church is also in full communion with the Moravians and with several “Old Catholic” churches. You can find the full list here:

I’m aware of the list, however I question the accuracy. The Marthoma Syrians are on that list, and although ‘in full communion’, do not accept women clergy as ordained (at least not yet) the same as men, nor do they accept the recent innovations. The Church of South India doesn’t even accept themselves - one entire diocese refuses women clergy while the majority do.

To be fair, the Lutherans are in full communion with some people we’re not in full communion with, and certainly that raises some questions about the meaning of full communion.

You’ve made my point.

But I believe the Melkites have at least tried to do something like that (establish full communion with the Orthodox even though the Orthodox and Rome aren’t in full communion).

The Melkites agree with it in principle, but haven’t necessarily claimed it is true yet.

One could even make a case that all the NAE denominations are, functionally, a single “Church.” That is to say, they all accept that all the other denominations hold to the same core convictions, and they claim to have “unity in diversity.”

So why not have real unity, why waste the members money and time on frivolous things that overlap?

 

[steido01]

SO why are all these denominations not one, why have so many splinters?

Well, they believe they are all part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. They’d also include Roman Catholics in that count.

And in a place like the USA, have versions of each one for each country of origin?

Lutheranism is similar to Orthodoxy in that respect. America has an interesting history - different people and cultures immigrated at different times and places. Different overseas bodies started separate missions in different parts of the country. The Germans in the North, East and South, the Scandinavians more in the Upper and Western Midwest. Kind of like how Irish Catholics own Boston, while the Italian Catholics populate New York City. Those insular, cultural communities still profess the same faith, but they were incorporated differently at different times. Yes, there is some overlap between jurisdictions, but can one ever have too much Gospel being preached? And especially when cooperation between the official bodies happens anyway? In civic life, we have city police, park police, state police,etc. They all cooperate just fine - and because of their specializations, they are more effective. Same with the cultures within the 37 orthodox “Old Lutheran” bodies. Who did Paul preach to when he was in Rome?

 

[fhansen]

Why does the Catholic Church view us as non Catholics , the Protestants , Lutheran , reformed , Adventist ,Anglican , etc , are seperate , distinct denominations ( as they shouldn’t unite ) within a Evangelical Catholic branch of the catholic church stripped of errors, I would also argue the eastern, and oriental churches to be distinct denominations of an Orthodox Catholic branch . This is the veiw of the reformers , and the church fathers , and the creeds , the denominations shouldn’t unite because truth cannot be compromised, but the Catholic Church should be defined as three branches , made of multiple distinct churches .

How could they not be united if they’re defined as three branches; why wouldn’t God want His Church united? Who says they’re stripped of errors? Luther certainly didn’t think that about Calvin, and vice versa. The RCC cannot view those groups as true church, only as imperfectly united to the true Church, or else she would be compromising the truth.

 

[Belshazzar]

There are 23 sui juris churches in your Communion.

You may not call them “branches,” but that’s semantics.

Edwin

All 23 or so rites are in full communion with Rome.

 

[Contarini]

All 23 or so rites are in full communion with Rome.

Of course.

But the correct term for what I’m talking about is “sui iuris churches,” not “rites.” There are, I think, considerably fewer rites, since for instance several sui iuris churches use the Byzantine Rite

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Except some Episcopalians are not in full communion with themselves, let along any ELCA.

I’m not sure what you mean by that. Are you talking about the existence of alternative episcopal oversight? Or are you confusing ACNA with Episcopalians?

I’m aware of the list, however I question the accuracy. The Marthoma Syrians are on that list, and although ‘in full communion’, do not accept women clergy as ordained (at least not yet) the same as men, nor do they accept the recent innovations. The Church of South India doesn’t even accept themselves - one entire diocese refuses women clergy while the majority do.

These are attempts to have unity within diversity. They are, of course, not perfect.

So why not have real unity, why waste the members money and time on frivolous things that overlap?

One could ask the same of Catholics: why have so many religious orders? Why have 23 sui iuris churches?

Again, I’m a hardliner on unity. I’d like to see one bishop per city and all Christians in a given locality gathered around one altar on a Sunday.

But there’s a double standard that goes on here, often, which prevents Catholics from making the effective points they could be making about real Protestant disunity.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

I’m not sure what you mean by that. Are you talking about the existence of alternative episcopal oversight? Or are you confusing ACNA with Episcopalians?.

Edwin

I almost posted a similar reply. But, possibly, one might look at +Lawrence and the Diocese of SC, as arguably, at this point, Episcopalians not in communion with Episcopalians. But I decided not to.

 

[SyroMalankara]

These are attempts to have unity within diversity. They are, of course, not perfect.

To those of us on the outside, it looks like diversity and disunity, especially when they contradict themselves.

One could ask the same of Catholics: why have so many religious orders? Why have 23 sui iuris churches?

Different animal. The orders and sui iuris church clergy are all subject to one bishop, that one bishop is united to his fellow bishops. In the US, they all meet at the USCCB together as one college, one body. They are all united to the Pope and each other completely.

But there’s a double standard that goes on here, often, which prevents Catholics from making the effective points they could be making about real Protestant disunity

Even the Eastern Orthodox and/or Oriental Orthodox Churches with their own overlapping parallel bishops and clergy are more united within their own Synodality than these protestant denominations are - it seems more like, leave us alone mostly and we’ll leave you alone - except for the occasional one-off. Why else can the Church of South India claim 2 sacraments and 5 other ‘ordinances’, the Church of England claim 7; the Marthoma 7, excluding women’s ordination, divorced clergy, remarried clergy and gay marriage; the Old Catholics 7 including women’s ordination, divorced clergy, remarried clergy and gay marriage; the Episcopalians claim 7 except when they claim 2 including women’s ordination, divorced clergy, remarried clergy, gay marriage, transexuality, and fill-in-the-next-thing…

 

[pablope]

Ok , first I suggested it , not demanded, second , I wasn’t suggesting Union , but that Catholicism is composed of branches which are composed of denominations , the Catholic Church is a true part of Christ s church , we just believe it has errors to correct , that’s what we did , but just because we disagree with each other doesn’t make us heretical, nor less catholic , it means our denominations belong to different branches . Impaired cummunion , each keep its own distinct doctrines, and beliefs as part of the One Holy Catholic Church.

Well…then if you have stipped the errors of the CC in Lutheranism…then you Lutherans then are the one infallible Church.

Do you agree then with the infallibility of your Lutheran Church?

And do you think, then, that in your confession, you claim the Pope of Rome as the anti-Christ…so do you think then that there is no error in your claiming the pope to be anti-Christ?

 

[jlhargus]

Ok , first I suggested it , not demanded, second , I wasn’t suggesting Union , but that Catholicism is composed of branches which are composed of denominations , the Catholic Church is a true part of Christ s church , we just believe it has errors to correct , that’s what we did , but just because we disagree with each other doesn’t make us heretical, nor less catholic , it means our denominations belong to different branches . Impaired cummunion , each keep its own distinct doctrines, and beliefs as part of the One Holy Catholic Church.

To be Catholic one must be in union with the holder of the keys. Otherwise they are schismatic or in heresy.