Protestant wants to understand Catholic position on Birth Control

[clem456]

Waiting and having sex when a woman isn’t fertile is getting “their pleasure without consequence” as well. They don’t get pregnant but get to have sex. That is how it’s the exact same thing. It accomplish the same thing.

A man and a woman cooperate with their free will when they have sex. They participate in an act by their own choice. God respects free will. The act has an order (form). It is ordered to completion. The completed act is ordered to and open to the creation of new life. If it is used in a manner that doesn’t have a complete form, it is not ordered to it’s natural end. That’s it. You’re overthinking this.

Since God always respects human free will, in NFP the couple has free will to -not- participate in the act. Choosing not to participate in the act is not the same thing as using it in a disordered way. A hammer can be used to drive a nail, or I can choose to let it lay on the workbench and -not- use it, OR I can use it to hit someone in the head.
See the difference. The fact that I take pleasure from hammering nails really doesn’t have much to do with it.

We are not forced to have sex all the time. And not every act has a new life as the required result. New life is not forced on us. It is ok for the couple to plan a family with God.

 

[Allegra]

Waiting and having sex when a woman isn’t fertile is getting “their pleasure without consequence” as well. They don’t get pregnant but get to have sex. That is how it’s the exact same thing. It accomplish the same thing.

Not at all. Waiting involves loving sacrifice. Using a condom is corrupting the marital act because it violates the unitive and procreative aspect of the act. You are not giving yourself fully when you seperate yourself with plastic. That’s not how God designed the marital embrace to be performed. Keep in mind that Catholics believe that marriage is a sacrament. Would you wear a shower cap to a Baptism so your hair wouldn’t get wet?

 

[Robyn_p]

I don’t think it’s wrong, I just think the logic of NFP, from a moral perspective, is twisting an idea in way that supports a moral principle but doesn’t compromise the past teaching of the church and yet, allows people to live in the same way as other couples that use condoms. It’s a way of justifying your belief, while committing the same acts as others.

What you are saying would be true…if the main reason the Church opposed contraception was just because it stopped a baby from coming into existence. Then I agree, it would be twisted logic to say, “It’s a sin to avoid having a child this one way, but this other way is fine because…it’s natural.”

But that’s not what the Church is saying. Here’s what the issue really is:

When couples, by means of recourse to contraception, **separate these two meanings **[the unitive and procreative] that God has inscribed in the being of man and woman, they act as “arbiters” of the divine plan and they “manipulate” and degrade human sexuality.

When, instead, by means of recourse to periods of infertility, the couple respect the inseparable connection between the unitive and procreative meanings of human sexuality, they are acting as “ministers” of God’s plan and they “benefit from” their sexuality according to the original dynamism of “total” selfgiving, without manipulation or alteration. (Familiaris Consortio)

See, the Church’s issue with contraception isn’t so much that it prevents a baby from coming into existence, but that it distorts God’s design and fundamentally severs the two meanings of sex, the unitive and the procreative. In other words, what contraception does is say that sex and babies are not intrinsically connected. It’s primarily for adult pleasure.

NFP on the other hand fundamentally respects this connection, and says, “If we can’t have a baby right this moment, we can’t have sex.” See the difference? One recognizes and follows God’s design (including the woman’s natural cycle.) while the other tries to usurp it.

Bottom line, the Church doesn’t have a problem with avoiding pregnancy, it doesn’t even have a problem with not consciously intending to get pregnant. It’s when we try to radically alter the purpose and meaning of sex that the sin comes in. Contraception does exactly that, NFP doesn’t.

 

[Tommy999]

What you are saying would be true…if the main reason the Church opposed contraception was just because it stopped a baby from coming into existence. Then I agree, it would be twisted logic to say, “It’s a sin to avoid having a child this one way, but this other way is fine because…it’s natural.”

But that’s not what the Church is saying. Here’s what the issue really is:

When couples, by means of recourse to contraception, separate these two meanings [the unitive and procreative] that God has inscribed in the being of man and woman, they act as “arbiters” of the divine plan and they “manipulate” and degrade human sexuality.

When, instead, by means of recourse to periods of infertility, the couple respect the inseparable connection between the unitive and procreative meanings of human sexuality, they are acting as “ministers” of God’s plan and they “benefit from” their sexuality according to the original dynamism of “total” selfgiving, without manipulation or alteration. (Familiaris Consortio)

See, the Church’s issue with contraception isn’t so much that it prevents a baby from coming into existence, but that it distorts God’s design and fundamentally severs the two meanings of sex, the unitive and the procreative. In other words, what contraception does is say that sex and babies are not intrinsically connected. It’s primarily for adult pleasure.

NFP on the other hand fundamentally respects this connection, and says, “If we can’t have a baby right this moment, we can’t have sex.” See the difference? One recognizes and follows God’s design (including the woman’s natural cycle.) while the other tries to usurp it.

Bottom line, the Church doesn’t have a problem with avoiding pregnancy, it doesn’t even have a problem with not consciously intending to get pregnant. It’s when we try to radically alter the purpose and meaning of sex that the sin comes in. Contraception does exactly that, NFP doesn’t.

Thanks again to Robyn P and everyone else for your replies. It sounds like a side benefit of NFP may be that it instills sexual discipline in the couple in the same way fasting helps to discipline the soul and draws us closer to God. Just a thought.

As I previously mentioned when I started this thread, my wife and I didn’t have any background in NFP and the Catholic position at the time we got married. We aren’t Catholics and live in an area where Catholicism has a small presence for the most part.

We just wanted to avoid having kids for about 5 years and get established in our careers, do some traveling, and establish a deeper bond with each other before settling down and taking on the responsibility of children.

We just weren’t very educated on alternative means at the time and hadn’t been taught in our faith community that contraception was wrong. I wish I had do-overs but at this stage of my life (in my 50’s) I can only ask the Lord to His forgiveness and have done so.

I hope younger couples will learn from my experience.

 

[Robyn_p]

Thanks again to Robyn P and everyone else for your replies. It sounds like a side benefit of NFP may be that it instills sexual discipline in the couple in the same way fasting helps to discipline the soul and draws us closer to God. Just a thought.

As I previously mentioned when I started this thread, my wife and I didn’t have any background in NFP and the Catholic position at the time we got married. We aren’t Catholics and live in an area where Catholicism has a small presence for the most part.

We just wanted to avoid having kids for about 5 years and get established in our careers, do some traveling, and establish a deeper bond with each other before settling down and taking on the responsibility of children.

We just weren’t very educated on alternative means at the time and hadn’t been taught in our faith community that contraception was wrong. I wish I had do-overs but at this stage of my life (in my 50’s) I can only ask the Lord to His forgiveness and have done so.

I hope younger couples will learn from my experience.

God bless you, Tommy. The Lord knows your heart and knows you weren’t using contraception out of any rebellion towards him, so there was no sin on your part. Especially since you regret making that choice now that you know it is wrong.

Who knows, perhaps God can use your experience to help the young couples in your church learn what his plan for marriage originally was.

 

[pablope]

Thanks again to Robyn P and everyone else for your replies. It sounds like a side benefit of NFP may be that it instills sexual discipline in the couple in the same way fasting helps to discipline the soul and draws us closer to God. Just a thought.

We just weren’t very educated on alternative means at the time and hadn’t been taught in our faith community that contraception was wrong. I wish I had do-overs but at this stage of my life (in my 50’s) I can only ask the Lord to His forgiveness and have done so.

I hope younger couples will learn from my experience.

As Robyn said…Who knows, perhaps God can use your experience to help the young couples in your church learn what his plan for marriage originally was.

For all you know, you are being led to bring the Catholic teaching to your church, to the young couples in your church…about contraception. And this is God’s way of telling you…do not worry, but as a sort of “penance”…teach the young couples in your church…

 

[Denise1957]

Did we sin for having taken birth control? If so, was it a serious sin? We didn’t mean any disrespect to God by doing so and we were unaware it was wrong.

On the other hand, we both have been against abortion all along because we feel it is the taking of an innocent life,

Since you and your wife are not, and were not Catholic at the time when you used artificial contraception, and were also unaware that it was wrong, I don’t see how you can be guilty of serious sin. However…if you were baptized in the trinitarian formula which the Catholic church uses, and if you were to someday convert to Catholicism, you should confess it in a general confession before being received into the Church (I think that’s how it works). It would be a serious sin for a Catholic couple who uses artificial contraception when they have been fully informed of the ban on artificial contraception. Sometimes it’s the case where even Catholics are not aware of what the Church teaches on the subject.

 

[TxGodfollower]

Is Humanae Vitae the Catholic Church’s official doctrine on birth control? If not, could you please direct me to it?

 

[clem456]

Is Humanae Vitae the Catholic Church’s official doctrine on birth control? If not, could you please direct me to it?

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

 

[seanman611]

Here is something I have never been able to understand and maybe some of you on this forum can help me.

If NFP methods, when used correctly, are as successful at preventing a pregnancy as artificial birth control, then what in the world is the difference? Neither method is 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. Furthermore, those who use the NFP method vs artificial birth control have the same goals in mind and the intent appears to be the same (spacing children, for example).

With this is mind, how can NFP not be considered birth control and sinful, while artificial birth control is considered sinful? After all, both methods are used with the intent of preventing an unwanted pregnancy and neither method is 100% effective. If artificial birth control is not 100% effective, then it is not shutting the door to life.

I’ve always been confused by the whole thing.

 

[clem456]

Here is something I have never been able to understand and maybe some of you on this forum can help me.

If NFP methods, when used correctly, are as successful at preventing a pregnancy as artificial birth control, then what in the world is the difference? Neither method is 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. Furthermore, those who use the NFP method vs artificial birth control have the same goals in mind and the intent appears to be the same (spacing children, for example).

With this is mind, how can NFP not be considered birth control and sinful, while artificial birth control is considered sinful? After all, both methods are used with the intent of preventing an unwanted pregnancy and neither method is 100% effective. If artificial birth control is not 100% effective, then it is not shutting the door to life.

I’ve always been confused by the whole thing.

Sex is an act. Human beings, with their God-given free will, participate in the act. The act is naturally ordered by God (look at the anatomy) to procreation. If the act is willfully and intentionally contra-cepted from it’s natural end, then God’s natural design for the act is thwarted. Note that “ordered to” does not say anything about results necessarily (conception of children).

Not ever act -must- result in a child. The act must have the proper form and end, but does not necessarily result in a child every time. If you remember that God gives us free will and respects it, we have the freedom to participate with God in planning a family. But contra-cepting the act itself is not an acceptable way to do that. Contra-cepting the act uses the other person and their body for a purpose outside the ordered context.

If the couple refrains from sex, there is simply no act to be contra-cepted. “Not doing” is not the same thing as doing in a disordered way.

 

[SteveVH]

Here is something I have never been able to understand and maybe some of you on this forum can help me.

If NFP methods, when used correctly, are as successful at preventing a pregnancy as artificial birth control, then what in the world is the difference? Neither method is 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. Furthermore, those who use the NFP method vs artificial birth control have the same goals in mind and the intent appears to be the same (spacing children, for example).

With this is mind, how can NFP not be considered birth control and sinful, while artificial birth control is considered sinful? After all, both methods are used with the intent of preventing an unwanted pregnancy and neither method is 100% effective. If artificial birth control is not 100% effective, then it is not shutting the door to life.

I’ve always been confused by the whole thing.

In a nut shell, the end does not justify the means. Refraining from the act in order to prevent pregnancy is not the same as engaging in the act in a manner which thwarts God’s plan and purpose for the act (union and procreation) to prevent pregnancy.

 

[clem456]

A hammer has a “natural purpose”, if you will indulge a cheap analogy.
It is ordered to hammering a nail. It’s features are designed to accomplish this good end.

I can also use the hammer to bash someone over the head, or to break a window. In that case I am simply using the hammer for utilitarian purposes outside what it’s truly designed for, cause I just like the way it feels when I strike someone over the head. Is that ordered to the true and complete purpose of the hammer?

I can also make a free choice not to use the hammer, to let it lay on the table.
Is this a disordered use of the hammer?
The answer is no, it is not disordered use because it is not using at all. God respects our free will to not engage in an act.
If we are using NFP to completely avoid children, that would be another matter. Then you look at the motivations of the couple, which honestly only God knows.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Did you sin? Yes.
Was it serious? Yes.
Was is a mortal sin? Probably not.

The reason your sin was probably not what Catholics call a “mortal” sin is because you probably did not have a properly formed conscience regarding this action.

A description of how sin impacts the universe should probabłybe clarified ( help from fellow Catholics with better writing skills may help).

All sin (moral or venial) is against God. This is why we start with Reconcilliation with God first. The sin (moral or venial ) then has a ripple effect that will be against mankind; biggest ripple harming those nearest to wrong doing. Example: A carpenter makes a house and fails to a support beam because they were unaware of the necessity of the beam. Result, house collapses killing the head of the household. Here the wrong doing (not installing beam) is firstand foremost against God. The ripples of this venial sin are heaviest on the deceased, followed by their spouse, followed by their childreen, followed by their parents, friends, coworkers, and people dependent on the talents taken away from this loss of resources. Now, let’s twist the same story and state the carpenter purposely excluded the beam to save costs knowing the risks to the occupants. Here the sin becomes mortal sin and when a sin is mortal, it is much harder for the penatant to goto God with contrition. This is because of the justification factor — it’s okay because “…” Therefore I was right in doing so. Usually these people will blame the collapse of the building on the occupants.

Now to explain the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. This sacrament has two componants to it. First it repairs the relationship between God and the sinner. second, it provides divine grace to avoid future sin. The second part helps many shed light on venial sins so that theymay find true contrition for wrong doinging’s against God. The penance given by the Priest is penance to reconcile to God. This does not repair the relationship between the person who contributed to a wrong doing causing harm to others.

In the situation of using BCP’s and accepting the definition of life beginning at attachment to the womb … Well, you still have children who were create by God who were flushed out at menustration. When we meditate on this with a contrite heart, we can feel the true sorrow of our hubris and are then compelled to share the folly you fell into. May peace be with yôur spirit.

 

[tm21]

To answer the question “why is NFP not the same as contraception” I propose the following observation. I think it would be safe to say that NFP is NEVER used by those who engage in illicit sexual relationships, such as adultery or pre-marital sex…that should tell you something.
Here’s a helpful analogy: two people achieve the same end - one person steals a loaf of bread and another purchases a loaf of bread. Are they both morally equivalent? Of course not. They both achieve the same end, but one does it via illicit means.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

To answer the question “why is NFP not the same as contraception” I propose the following observation. I think it would be safe to say that NFP is NEVER used by those who engage in illicit sexual relationships, such as adultery or pre-marital sex…that should tell you something.
Here’s a helpful analogy: two people achieve the same end - one person steals a loaf of bread and another purchases a loaf of bread. Are they both morally equivalent? Of course not. They both achieve the same end, but one does it via illicit means.

So a married couple who use a condom or the pill as they do not want children just yet are stealing a loaf of bread, while a married couple who use NFP because they do not want children just yet are buying a loaf of bread?

Somehow or other, I think your analogy doesn’t fit very well.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

So a married couple who use a condom or the pill as they do not want children just yet are stealing a loaf of bread, while a married couple who use NFP because they do not want children just yet are buying a loaf of bread?

Somehow or other, I think your analogy doesn’t fit very well.

natural, Natural, NATURAL!!!

St. JP2 pointed us to the natural laws and spiritual laws. artificial, Artificial, ARTIFICIAl Birthcontrol violates natural and spiritual laws.

Artificial birthcontrol is like artificial ways to remain thin. Yes, mankind has been given the genious to bypass NATURAL laws to achieve selfish desires: gluttony in food and gluttony in sexual acts. ARTIFICIAL sweetners come with hazards like cancer, weight gain, pimples, and weight gain. Our media society is so obsessed with image (vanity) that many overlook these side effects to get what they want, only to end up hurting themselves. Now ARTiFICIAL birthcontrol follows many of the same follies that artifical means to weight control has. Women taking BCP’s will have decreaaes libedo, wight gain, acne, risk if stroke, and they pollute the water supply (forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/06/03/women-on-contraceptive-pill-should-pay-1500-a-year-more-tax/) plus other grusium effects of babies not implanting in the womb. Condums are similar to bellima in that a bellimic will vomit food eaten … If she could she would collect the food in her tummy and pull it out after eatting excessively. Well, condums aredoing the same thing, collecting life’s seed and tossing them to avoid a concequence of a NATURAL law.

(Cont. next blog: spirituality laws skewed by ARTIFICIAl vs NATURAL)

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Artificial vs Spiritual laws: (artificial means to be thin & artifical ways to control family) vs (natural ways to stay thin & to manage family size)

Artifical means of decreasing calories ( sweetners, vomiting, surgeries, ect ) ROB (yes steeling the bread!!!) the people of ways to live as God wants them to be. They fall into one of the biggest tricks of Satan … “You can be God like”. When the young use excessive artificial means to avoid weight gain, they face a greater trial of self-control as they mature into adults. Instant gratification will be sought over healthy gratification. Spiritually, they will become enslaved to food, calories, exercise, and ways to “Con” the natural laws.

Artificial means to tweek the sexual system tells he young adults that the sexual system is an illness and should be medicated, denied, and surgically controlled. It takes a healthy system and makes the person using artificial perceive themselves as unhealthy. Continued use of the artifical means to avoid pregnancy will lead the people to view life as unhealthy … That’s why they are taking the medicine (BCP), using protection (condums/spermacides), and surgery to transform their reproductive system right? Over repeat use, they look inward and will be blinded to the fact they were created in the image of God and feel that they should not procreate because they are so imperfect (medicine, tools, & surgery). Other fall outs of using ArTIFICIAl is learning to self-take vs self give. Now God is pleased when we LeArN to balance self-giving and self taking. Artifical will influence people to use sex to their satisfaction over finding balance. This leads to objectification of women, and manipulation of men.

Natural methods to control family size is similar to learning to balance eatting a healthy diesel through calorie intake and exercise vs artifical means. Natural family teaches when sexual desires peak in women, and when they wane. natural family planning should invite the husband into the process thereby giving balance to the give/take relationship they are called to in marriage.

 

[Chayla]

To answer the question “why is NFP not the same as contraception” I propose the following observation. ** I think it would be safe to say that NFP is NEVER used by those who engage in illicit sexual relationships**, such as adultery or pre-marital sex…that should tell you something.
…

I personally know cohabitating couples who use NFP. Non-Catholic and non-religious, although took course. Reason: “It’s natural.” so, NFP is not just used by married Catholic couples.

BTW, this type of mindset is very common in the circles in which I travel. (Health-concious, enviranmentalist, vegetarian, etc.)

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

I personally know cohabitating couples who use NFP. Non-Catholic and non-religious, although took course. Reason: “It’s natural.” so, NFP is not just used by married Catholic couples.

BTW, this type of mindset is very common in the circles in which I travel. (Health-concious, enviranmentalist, vegetarian, etc.)

Applause for the natural!!! I’m always surprised tha so many people obsess over what they put in and on their body but fail to apply this to medicine and other things like condums (petroleum, chemicals, ect).

However, “why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?”

Openness to the mystery of God to lead us away from selfishness. To allow love to be definitive. What good is our marriage vows if they do not cost us anything? In marriage we give what we don’t even have to give- our future. Marriage is the mystery of the limit. God ( who is love ) teaches us the limit. He embraced the limit our human nature In His incarnet limit which had a limit of suffering on the cross to brings with Him into the limitless into the horizon of eternity across the threshold of divine love.

We imitate the way He loves by follow in His footsteps with our wedding vows, “'this one for all my life”. There by in embracing the limit we find entry into the limitless.

Marriage draws us out of ourselves. Those in heaven neither marry nor are given in marriage. This does not mean that your spouse is no longer important to you because it is your spouse who helped you to grow out of that selfish love. Your love was transformed & so in fact you’ll have an even more tender, purified, & deeper love for your spouse. That love will be transformed & taken in most perfectly & completely into Divine Love."

When love seeks to be definitive to the end it embraces the limit. And God himself who is love, he comes to teach us this mystery of loving in the limit. He embraced the limit of our human nature in the incarnation. The limit of suffering on the cross. He was nailed to it died on it. All to bring us with him Into the limitless. Into the horizon of eternity across the threshold of divine love. So we imitate his way of loving we imitate the one who is love … How … By following in his footsteps to embrace the limit into the limitless.

Love and Life in the Divine Plan Family (2011)
Sister Jane Dominic O.