Protestant with questions!!!

[jmcrae]

My Jesus saved me from what I was. He does require something that goes far beyond anything I could have imagined before I got to know Him… He requires my all. He requires my heart, my soul, my life.
Because of Him I am not getting what I deserve and I am exceedingly grateful for that.
He requires me to live only for Him, every day. I am dead to myself and alive in Him.
My Lord is not imaginary and He will not condemn me for not believing the Catholic teaching of transubstantiation. Jesus of course said the words in John 6… just like what He said in John 6:35 and John 6:63

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Right. He then describes to us how we can come to Him, which is by means of Holy Communion.

John 6:59-65
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Right again! We get spiritual strength from Holy Communion - it is not the ordinary bread that is served at dinner. It is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. It gives us eternal life; not mortal life.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

This tells us that without Holy Communion, it is not even possible to come to Jesus.

 

[Janet1983]

Right. He then describes to us how we can come to Him, which is by means of Holy Communion.

Right again! We get spiritual strength from Holy Communion - it is not the ordinary bread that is served at dinner. It is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. It gives us eternal life; not mortal life.

This tells us that without Holy Communion, it is not even possible to come to Jesus.

I read it rather differently. Jesus did not tell us to eat Him literally, but He used the symbols for sustenance to tell us that we need to come to Him and believe Him.
His words are not literal, but spiritual and we can only find Him if the Father draws us near to Him.

 

[PJM]

=LaurAsh988;6446192]Hello there,

I am a confirmed member of the Methodist church, although I rarely attend church. I am here because my best friend is Catholic and my boyfriend is as well, which brings some interesting discussions. Unfortunately as of right now I do not have a good opinion of the church. I know they do good and I know they are very tradition based but a lot of what I hear turns me off.

From both of them I get the term the “true” or “right” church and no other church is correct in their teachings. Frankly this upsets me and makes me feel as if my church and every other church has something wrong with them. I have never felt one church is better or more true than another and that the main thing that should be focused on is God and the love and celebration of Jesus Christ.

I guess I am wondering why this has been taught and why is the word of the church held to the same standard as what is written in the Bible? It has always been my personal belief that what is in the Bible is what a person is to follow, not what man says.

I’m sure I have many misconceptions about the church. While I understand their belief system for some things, such as prohibiting birth control, I do not understand not allowing priests to marry and making them take a vow of celibacy. I have heard the myriad reasons for it and it still just makes me feel like it’s about money and land. I feel a lot of the traditions the church has are unnecessary for entrance into Heaven and are made up rules.

Sorry for rambling on, I would like everyone to know that I am not really “anti” Catholic but I do have major issues with the church. I really just want to understand the teachings better and the reasoning behind things to better connect spiritually to my boyfriend. His faith is important to him so it is important to me to connect better on that level to him.

I wish I could think of a gentler way to explain this BUT

Mt. 16: “15 He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered Him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [ROCK = Foundation of you Peter] I will build my [SINGULAR] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you [SINGULAR] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph.2 Verses 19 to 22: “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,[SINGULAR] ** built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, ****Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, **[21] in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;[SINGULAR] [22] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

**John 14: 16 **And I [JESUS] will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, [The Holy Spirit also God] to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."

John.17 Verses 14 to 19: I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [19] And for their sake I [Jesus] consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

Friend, if you beleive the Bible, this is why. Further it’s in your KJ Bible too.

I’d be happy to address any other question you may have?

Love and prayers,
Pat
PJM

 

[jmcrae]

I read it rather differently. Jesus did not tell us to eat Him literally, but He used the symbols for sustenance to tell us that we need to come to Him and believe Him.
His words are not literal, but spiritual and we can only find Him if the Father draws us near to Him.

“Spiritual” is not a synonym for “non-physical.” Many spiritual things are manifested physically - human beings being the first and most important example. We are spiritual beings who are made of physical matter, and occupy physical space.

The bread of Holy Communion is spiritual bread, and the wine of Holy Communion is spiritual wine - not in the sense that they don’t exist physically, but rather, in the sense that, when they become Jesus at the time of the Consecration, they have the power to give us eternal life, and are not meant to be eaten in the way that we normally would eat a meal. (This is why we stand or kneel for Holy Communion, rather than sit, and why we receive from the priest’s hand, rather than help ourselves.)

Jesus made it absolutely clear that we must eat His body and drink His blood in the same way that the Jews ate the lamb of Passover - by consuming it with our teeth and tongue. I am told that St. John actually uses the word for “gnaw” in that passage, although it is translated as “eat” in English. He is not referring to some kind of ethereal, imaginary event, but rather, to an actual spiritual event that takes place in the physical realm, just like the Passover.

 

[bookgirl32]

I read it rather differently. Jesus did not tell us to eat Him literally, but He used the symbols for sustenance to tell us that we need to come to Him and believe Him.
His words are not literal, but spiritual and we can only find Him if the Father draws us near to Him.

Interpretations (the way you or I read it) are funny things aren’t they? They can change the entire meaning of the text. Geesh, you would’ve thought God put a plan in action when it came to His revelation so that thousands of different interpretations didn’t mislead thousands of people.

 

[Janet1983]

Interpretations (the way you or I read it) are funny things aren’t they? They can change the entire meaning of the text. Geesh, you would’ve thought God put a plan in action when it came to His revelation so that thousands of different interpretations didn’t mislead thousands of people.

What makes you so sure that you found the right one then? People have a tendency to be fallible and even memory can be deceiving the individual.
Eye witnesses in court sometimes tell fabricated things without knowing that they are making up for things they did not see. Their brain is playing a trick on them. How would you know that what you think is right is the truth?

 

[jmcrae]

What makes you so sure that you found the right one then? People have a tendency to be fallible and even memory can be deceiving the individual.
Eye witnesses in court sometimes tell fabricated things without knowing that they are making up for things they did not see. Their brain is playing a trick on them. How would you know that what you think is right is the truth?

Because we get it from the teaching of the Apostles, in a direct line through the leadership of the Church.

And before you bring up the game of “telephone”, keep in mind that in this particular game of “telephone” there was lots of repetition, there were some things put in writing, there were endless explanations of what was going on, and hundreds, even thousands, of people were hearing the same sermons at the same time. We have clear evidence that the whole Church believed in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ from a very early time. St. Peter and some of the other Apostles were saying Mass in the Roman Catacombs; the Mass was not a “later invention” and no, they were not doing Bible study down there.

 

[Bookcat]

What makes you so sure that you found the right one then? People have a tendency to be fallible and even memory can be deceiving the individual.
Eye witnesses in court sometimes tell fabricated things without knowing that they are making up for things they did not see. Their brain is playing a trick on them. How would you know that what you think is right is the truth?

Exactly…which is why Jesus did not set up things this way…

he did not give us a book and say…ok just read it and figure out what works for you…

Jesus founded a Church…and gave that Church the authority to teach in his name…and this Church teaches such.

It all rests on Jesus and his authority.

Even the very Bible which is the written Word of God was identified and said to be such by the Church that Jesus founded…

otherwise how would one know the Bible is the Bible? Cause it is in the Bible section of Barnes and Noble ??? Some are even trying today to go and add things like the gnostic gospels to the Bible…

Jesus gathered around him 12 men and sent them out…and formed a Church…giving them authority and one particular authority…and they in turn laid hands on others…and thus the Church has continued to this day…

this is how we know…

and it has been handed on from the beginning…and was celebrated in the Eucharist from the beginning…the lived life of the Church …

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as to the Eucharist

some of course some would not accept Jesus’s words about eating his flesh…and they walked away… he did not call them back and say you misunderstood me but let them go…and turned and asked the others…are you too going to leave me…

---

we are not saying that you are not a Christian…we very much recognize other Christians as Christians…and hope that one day full union can be restored and that you will be able to them partake of the Eucharist which has been celebrated from the very beginning…

For example:

Justin Martyr

“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration * and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).*

 

[bookgirl32]

What makes you so sure that you found the right one then? People have a tendency to be fallible and even memory can be deceiving the individual.
Eye witnesses in court sometimes tell fabricated things without knowing that they are making up for things they did not see. Their brain is playing a trick on them. How would you know that what you think is right is the truth?

I’ll answer, but just to clarify: So you do think there is one clear revealed truth that God has made available to us? You’d agree with that statement?

 

[Janet1983]

I’ll answer, but just to clarify: So you do think there is one clear revealed truth that God has made available to us? You’d agree with that statement?

Well, I guess we’ll end up having to agree to disagree. I believe the Bible to be the infallible, inerrant, Written Word of our Lord and God. Jesus Christ is the Living Word.
I do not believe in the authority of the Catholic Church in this, even though I once did. I am not going to submit myself to Catholic teachings, but I am always open to clarification on what the Church actually teaches. Even after being a Catholic for more than 20 years, I still might have thoughts and impressions here and there that are not taught in the Church but were taught to me like that.
I know you wish to break out the sword now and storm into my positions. I do not deem that necessary. I have heard the arguments before and I still disagree with them.
Go ahead and try to slay what you perceive to be the dragon and may you come out of this discussion as the winner.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

 

[crazzeto]

Well, I guess we’ll end up having to agree to disagree. I believe the Bible to be the infallible, inerrant, Written Word of our Lord and God. Jesus Christ is the Living Word.
I do not believe in the authority of the Catholic Church in this, even though I once did. I am not going to submit myself to Catholic teachings, but I am always open to clarification on what the Church actually teaches. Even after being a Catholic for more than 20 years, I still might have thoughts and impressions here and there that are not taught in the Church but were taught to me like that.
I know you wish to break out the sword now and storm into my positions. I do not deem that necessary. I have heard the arguments before and I still disagree with them.
Go ahead and try to slay what you perceive to be the dragon and may you come out of this discussion as the winner.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

This is a rather logically inconsitant post, how can you believe in the infallibility of the bible but not the Church? With out that authority, you can’t even know for sure what books are supposed to be in the bible! For instance why not the Didache? Or the Acts of Andrew? Acts of Philip? Apocalypse of Moses?

The best you can say, is you have an fallible list of books you presume are infallible. But you really can’t be sure, can you?

 

[Janet1983]

This is a rather logically inconsitant post, how can you believe in the infallibility of the bible but not the Church? With out that authority, you can’t even know for sure what books are supposed to be in the bible! For instance why not the Didache? Or the Acts of Andrew? Acts of Philip? Apocalypse of Moses?

The best you can say, is you have an fallible list of books you presume are infallible. But you really can’t be sure, can you?

I believe the Bible to be the infallible, inerrant, Written Word of our Lord and God. Jesus Christ is the Living Word.
I do not believe in the authority of the Catholic Church in this. I am not going to submit myself to Catholic teachings.
I do not have a problem with adhering to a doctrine contradictory to a point of faith clearly defined by the Church.

 

[crazzeto]

I believe the Bible to be the infallible, inerrant, Written Word of our Lord and God. Jesus Christ is the Living Word.
I do not believe in the authority of the Catholic Church in this. I am not going to submit myself to Catholic teachings.

How do you come to believe this? When did Jesus institute the bible? Where’s it written what books should be in the bible? Can you make a valid case that any one of the books I listed shouldn’t be in the bible? Can you make a valid case that Revelation, or Hebrews should be in the bible? Both were hotly disputed you know, in fact I highly recommend you read “History of the Church” written by Eucebeus of Ceaserea’s History of The Church (310 AD), it’s available as paper back. In that book, he discusses at some length the contraversy surrounding Revelation. I also highly recommend you read:

Where we got the bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

Written by a (former) protistant at the turn of the Century.

 

[Janet1983]

How do you come to believe this?

I believe the Bible because it is the Written Word of God. I do not believe however that the Catholic Church today is representing this accurately. In parts this is because I doubt Marian dogmata.
I do not have a problem with adhering to a doctrine contradictory to a point of faith clearly defined by the Church.
Even though I used to be obedient to the Catholic Church, I am not following that teaching anymore. I am obedient to my Lord alone.

 

[crazzeto]

I believe the Bible because it is the Written Word of God. I do not believe however that the Catholic Church today is representing this accurately. In parts this is because I doubt Marian dogmata.
I do not have a problem with adhering to a doctrine contradictory to a point of faith clearly defined by the Church.
Even though I used to be obedient to the Catholic Church, I am not following that teaching anymore. I am obedient to my Lord alone.

Have you noticed how you haven’t directly addressed any single point I’ve made, doesn’t that give you pause?

 

[Janet1983]

Have you noticed how you haven’t directly addressed any single point I’ve made, doesn’t that give you pause?

No, it doesn’t.

 

[OraLabora]

Have you noticed how you haven’t directly addressed any single point I’ve made, doesn’t that give you pause?

It’s because she can’t. Otherwise her whole house of cards will come crashing down.

Bless her soul, but she is one of these Bible-only Christians who believe that fully canonical copies of the Bible started raining down from the Celestial Printing Press Inc. on Day One of Christianity.

I used to believe in Santa Claus too. I grew out of it when I was about 7 years old and realized that the fact that Santa and dad had identical tastes in midnight snacks was more than a mere coincidence.

I don’t mean to be uncharitable but I think it’s a lost cause arguing with her. There is obviously some deep-seated emotional, and not rational, reason for her apostasy. What that is, only she and God knows. May God have mercy on her soul.

 

[Janet1983]

It’s because she can’t. Otherwise her whole house of cards will come crashing down.

Bless her soul, but she is one of these Bible-only Christians who believe that fully canonical copies of the Bible started raining down from the Celestial Printing Press Inc. on Day One of Christianity.

I used to believe in Santa Claus too. I grew out of it when I was about 7 years old and realized that the fact that Santa and dad had identical tastes in midnight snacks was more than a mere coincidence.

I don’t mean to be uncharitable but I think it’s a lost cause arguing with her. There is obviously some deep-seated emotional, and not rational, reason for her apostasy. What that is, only she and God knows. May God have mercy on her soul.

Well I could, but I won’t. I am not going to feed my pride, but if you need it, try and tear me apart to feel as a winner.

 

[OraLabora]

Well I could, but I won’t. I am not going to feed my pride, but if you need it, try and tear me apart to feel as a winner.

I have no intention to try to tear you apart, and I apologize if I was uncharitable in my comment. But as a faithful Catholic I will defend Church doctrine, and will certainly endeavor to tear your arguments apart, should you ever elect to dignify us with real arguments. Again I apologize for having crossed the line between personal attack and attacking your points.

It is our duty to defend the Church against error and calumny, especially in light of the fact that the OP came here asking questions about Catholicism in good faith, not seeking support for her doubts, a Catholic forum being the last place where she should expect support for her doubts (there are plenty of places where she can find that if that’s what she wanted). It is our duty to properly represent the Church in these matters.

If you can’t participate constructively in the debate and only have the same tired old heretical platitudes to dish around (believe us, we’ve heard it all), have the good grace to allow us to answer her questions without the distraction of also having to refute your unsupported assertions as a sideshow, and stick to your blog for your proselytizing.

 

[Murphs10]

No, it doesn’t.

Just to clarify, do you know what they are asking you? They are asking you why it is that you believe that the Bible is the Word of God (which it is of course) and how the Bible was put together. In other words, how do you know what you have been given is in fact the correct group of writings?

Your answer has been that you believe it is the Word of God because you believe it is.