Protestantising the sanctuary

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InnocentIII

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Recently while I was taking photos of Catholic churches for my website I came across a new horror. I am not sure if this is unique to us here in Australia or if others have seen it also. If so let me know as I feel this is the last gasp of arrogance of those who hope to succeed where Martin Luther failed.

In two of the churches I entered the altar had been moved to the side of the sanctuary. One of the Parish cleaning ladies explained it was to symbolise the EQUALITY of word and sacrament. I bit my tongue on this as she was obviously sincere and an argument would have been pointless.

To say however that I was horrified is putting it mildly. To make matters worse, the Priests throne (there is no other word for it) was placed dead centre in the sanctuary IN FRONT OF the Tabernacle. In the words of Alexander Pope “new presbyter is but old priest writ large”. The arrogance of this was quite breathtaking, the disrespect for Our Lord’s Body beyond belief, yet here was this woman telling me how lovely it all was.

What has happened to the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament when a priest can sit undisturbed in front of the Tabernacle and treat the sacrifice of the mass as a side issue?
 
usccb.org/liturgy/livingstones.shtml#chaptertwoc

There are specific guidelines in the building and construction of a church as outlined inthe US Catholic council of bishops link provided above. I don’t know if this is standardized world-wide but I would think this was approved through the Vatican offices. Check it out.
 
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InnocentIII:
Recently while I was taking photos of Catholic churches for my website I came across a new horror. I am not sure if this is unique to us here in Australia or if others have seen it also. If so let me know as I feel this is the last gasp of arrogance of those who hope to succeed where Martin Luther failed.

In two of the churches I entered the altar had been moved to the side of the sanctuary. One of the Parish cleaning ladies explained it was to symbolise the EQUALITY of word and sacrament. I bit my tongue on this as she was obviously sincere and an argument would have been pointless.

To say however that I was horrified is putting it mildly. To make matters worse, the Priests throne (there is no other word for it) was placed dead centre in the sanctuary IN FRONT OF the Tabernacle. In the words of Alexander Pope “new presbyter is but old priest writ large”. The arrogance of this was quite breathtaking, the disrespect for Our Lord’s Body beyond belief, yet here was this woman telling me how lovely it all was.

What has happened to the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament when a priest can sit undisturbed in front of the Tabernacle and treat the sacrifice of the mass as a side issue?
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That’s old news here in the USA
What’s funny is the posters, who will come on here and give you all of the “Guidelines” from the USCCB.
As if anyone listened too, or followed, that bunch of “mini pope wannabes”
Including the Bishops themselves!
All of the high flown rhetoric, all of the official documents.
Means nothing at all, We are living in the “feel good” Church.
If it feels good do it! If the GIRM, doesn’t forbid it, then that means it must allow it! (Whatever “It” may happen to be)
THE EMPORER HAS NO CLOTHES
 
Find and read Ugly as Sin by Michael S. Rose. It explains a lot.

My old parish was set up like that once, and when I visited for Mass, I was appalled. I asked the pastor why his chair was in the center and the altar off to the side, and his lame response was, “To show that the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist are equally important.” Never having been known for being subtle, I retorted, “But YOU are not the WORD.” Two weeks later the altar was back where it belonged.
 
Detroit Sue:
Find and read Ugly as Sin by Michael S. Rose. It explains a lot.

My old parish was set up like that once, and when I visited for Mass, I was appalled. I asked the pastor why his chair was in the center and the altar off to the side, and his lame response was, “To show that the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist are equally important.” Never having been known for being subtle, I retorted, “But YOU are not the WORD.” Two weeks later the altar was back where it belonged.
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Good for you! Detroit Sue!
Thats what we need.
More lay people to stand up and resist them to their face.
 
It could always be worse, my friend…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Detroit Sue:
Find and read Ugly as Sin by Michael S. Rose. It explains a lot.

My old parish was set up like that once, and when I visited for Mass, I was appalled. I asked the pastor why his chair was in the center and the altar off to the side, and his lame response was, “To show that the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist are equally important.” Never having been known for being subtle, I retorted, “But YOU are not the WORD.” Two weeks later the altar was back where it belonged.
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That’s a very, very good book. If you have problems with your parish, its a good read to ‘suggest’ to your priest. If he gets offended, then you know its time to find a new parish…
 
Happily, my pastor moved our tabernacle to its proper place when he was installed nearly 4 years ago. The parish has thrived ever since, in attendance, confessions, and converts.

If I am raised up, I will draw all men to myself.
 
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InnocentIII:
Recently while I was taking photos of Catholic churches for my website I came across a new horror. I am not sure if this is unique to us here in Australia or if others have seen it also. If so let me know as I feel this is the last gasp of arrogance of those who hope to succeed where Martin Luther failed.

In two of the churches I entered the altar had been moved to the side of the sanctuary. One of the Parish cleaning ladies explained it was to symbolise the EQUALITY of word and sacrament. I bit my tongue on this as she was obviously sincere and an argument would have been pointless.

To say however that I was horrified is putting it mildly. To make matters worse, the Priests throne (there is no other word for it) was placed dead centre in the sanctuary IN FRONT OF the Tabernacle. In the words of Alexander Pope “new presbyter is but old priest writ large”. The arrogance of this was quite breathtaking, the disrespect for Our Lord’s Body beyond belief, yet here was this woman telling me how lovely it all was.

What has happened to the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament when a priest can sit undisturbed in front of the Tabernacle and treat the sacrifice of the mass as a side issue?
Click to expand...
Hey, at least in that parish, the tabernacle was still in the center of the sanctuary. 😉 In many NO parishes here in America, the tabernacle is off in a corner, if not in a different room.
 
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mpav:
Happily, my pastor moved our tabernacle to its proper place when he was installed nearly 4 years ago. The parish has thrived ever since, in attendance, confessions, and converts.

If I am raised up, I will draw all men to myself.
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Where is the tabernacle located? Is it located in such a way that the celebrant (and perhaps others) have their BACKS to Jesus Christ when they are at the altar?
 
Scotty PGH:
Hey, at least in that parish, the tabernacle was still in the center of the sanctuary. 😉 In many NO parishes here in America, the tabernacle is off in a corner, if not in a different room.
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Including ground zero of Catholicism – Saint Peter’s Basilica
 
“The Case of the Disappearing Altar”

I know what you mean about altar placement. My church has the normal arrangement – normal-sized altar, placed where it’s supposed to be (and we still have the original altar from when the priest used to stand with his back to the congregation). I did attend Mass once at a very new parish, though, and I had to struggle to even see the altar. It was so tiny, it was barely visible, and it looked almost like a card table. It was off to the side of the priest’s chair, which was also hard to see. The most visible thing up there was the podium (like the kind you would see in a conference center, only larger). I’m not too sure what kind of statement was being made there, but I found it confusing, to say the least.
Crazy Internet Junkie Society
****Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
 
The new Parish I attend has the Tabernacle off in a little Seperate Worship area… I honestly don’t know why…
The Altar was off to the side with an organ in the middle back and the Priest’s chair in the middle… It’s also built so as
…Raised Area
\ \ \ \ \ \ – – –
\ \ \ \ \ \ – – –
\ \ \ \ \ \ – – –
I honestly don’t know what the builder was trying to accomplish…
But a younger Priest there moved the Altar to the Middle and place the podium and Priest chair to the sides.
The Tabernacle area also has a big hangling Sanctuary Candle infront of the entrance and has another Sanctuary next to the nice looking Tabernacle surrounded by seats for reflection.
I don’t know how it looked before this was done, but I like it now.
 
I feel bad for the pastor of my old parish, who has worked hard to restore some decency to it over many years. While the Tabernacle is visible and behind the altar (but behind a “grated” wall, the only place the priest can sit, is behind the altar with his back to the tabernacle. I just don’t see anyplace he could move the chair the way the church is built, so that he is off to the side.

I was at a funeral a couple weeks back and I had to ask the guy next to me if he could find the tabernacle. I did not genuflect when I went into the pew and neither did anyone else. I could find nothing to genuflect to. The, I watched as the co-pastor left through some glass doors and went into a side chapel, where I later found the tabernacle.

:rolleyes:

I’ll say this much, it wasn’t until recently when I started attending a more traditional parish that I ever seen a priest sit off to the side. I’m not use to that so it struck me. After several weeks it finally occured to me that all of the lack of external dynamics on the part of the priest, including his sitting off to the side, are signs that he is not making himself the center of attention. Eureka!

This may come as a shock to those who have remained in Tradtional parishes most of their life, but what else do you expect from someone who is the product of 1970’s “Jesus Loves Me” Catechism.

Oh, and one question: Did Bozo and Happy make those appearances on the altar recently? Do these clown masses still happen out there? God help us. The priests stole or whatever you call it, is just too much.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
I feel bad for the pastor of my old parish, who has worked hard to restore some decency to it over many years. While the Tabernacle is visible and behind the altar (but behind a “grated” wall, the only place the priest can sit, is behind the altar with his back to the tabernacle. I just don’t see anyplace he could move the chair the way the church is built, so that he is off to the side.

I was at a funeral a couple weeks back and I had to ask the guy next to me if he could find the tabernacle. I did not genuflect when I went into the pew and neither did anyone else. I could find nothing to genuflect to. The, I watched as the co-pastor left through some glass doors and went into a side chapel, where I later found the tabernacle.

:rolleyes:

I’ll say this much, it wasn’t until recently when I started attending a more traditional parish that I ever seen a priest sit off to the side. I’m not use to that so it struck me. After several weeks it finally occured to me that all of the lack of external dynamics on the part of the priest, including his sitting off to the side, are signs that he is not making himself the center of attention. Eureka!

This may come as a shock to those who have remained in Tradtional parishes most of their life, but what else do you expect from someone who is the product of 1970’s “Jesus Loves Me” Catechism.

Oh, and one question: Did Bozo and Happy make those appearances on the altar recently? Do these clown masses still happen out there? God help us. The priests stole or whatever you call it, is just too much.
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I too have been fortunate. Things have not yet come to such a pass here in Ozland. That does not mean there aren’t individual parishes that go over the edge. My “life work” is a guide to Australian Catholic Churches (www.cathchurch.net) and I collect pictures of the churches here. Some are truly protestant - no crucifix, no tabernacle, no altar - but thanks to a few strong bishops its rare here to find a sanctuary without a tabernacle.

My fomer parish church however had gutted the sacntuary, moved the organ into the it, then built a three tiered platform eith the priests chair highest then the lectern then the altar and finally the font. The tabernacle was to one side but at least large and noticeable. A new priest has however moved the chair to the side.

In my present parish the saintly priest has to deal with the same issues. A church built in the 70’s that just won’t fit orthodox Catholicism (and I think that says it all as far as whether the “spirit of Vatican II” was orthodox or not) but he does sit to the side and we kneel on the step to receive communion. And he has filled one side of the sanctuary with a lovely huge old fashioned statue of Our Lady that he rescued.

It is telling I think that I have seen traditional churches that have been converted to NO with minimal change (altar pulled forward, an ambo to one side and celebrant’s chair on the other) but I have never seen an NO church that could be converted to orthodoxy without a radical reworking of the whole interior.

One sign of hope though - I was talking to a parish priest about a new church he is planning and of the determination of the Parish Council to build a “timeless” church like the old ones. It is in the nature of heresy that it is ephemeral because it does not have the truth of ages.

PS If I may ask - is it a long standing US thing to call the Parish Priest “Pastor” or is that a post Vatican II thing. Here he is and has alwasy been the PP.
 
As long as I’ve been alive we’ve always called the head of the parish, the Pastor, and the next one in line, the co-pastor. But that is dwindling now to only Pastor

😦
 
Originally posted by Innocent III
If I may ask - is it a long standing US thing to call the Parish Priest “Pastor” or is that a post Vatican II thing. Here he is and has alwasy been the PP.
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Pastor refers to the senoir/lead priest at a parish. He is in charge and should stand behind all the actions of his parish.

Christ’s Peace
 
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TJD:
Pastor refers to the senoir/lead priest at a parish. He is in charge and should stand behind all the actions of his parish.

Christ’s Peace
Click to expand...
Thank you for clearing that up. Here in Ozland only Baptists and Pentecostals have Pastors, Methodists et al have Ministers, Anglicans have Rectors or Vicars and Catholics have Parish Priests. It is very confusing to hear Catholic Priests called Pastors :eek:
 
Mike182d,
lol, that’s from the Episcopal Church in NY, right? That was sick. I never got to see the pictures of it.
 
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