Protestantism and works-salvation

[KEP1983]

Hello all,

I’ve been having a discussion with a Protestant I know. Of course, he “really understands Catholicism,” and insists that I don’t.

He believes that the Church teaches that we do good works, and these good works merit justification/sanctification which merits us salvation.

I said that everything first comes from the Holy Spirit. Man on his own is incapable of repentance, faith, and meritorious good works. Man can only truly believe and do good works by the Grace of God, and by His Grace alone.

The Holy Spirit first draws us in, and we have the free will to either choose or reject Him. If we cooperate with Him, we receive the justification of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which normally occurs at baptism, though the Holy Spirit can also give someone the fruits of baptism without the physical water through Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood). This is justification, where we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Afterwards the Holy Spirit continues to change us, which we call “increased justification” or “sanctification.” Again, none of the good works we do even after being justified come from ourselves. All of our good works come from Christ through the Holy Spirit. We have the ability to accept or reject the movement of the Holy Spirit.

Throughout our lives as we cooperate with God’s grace and do works of agape (love) we receive “increased justification” or “increased righteousness”-- that is, we don’t EARN justification; but rather, we increase in our relationship to God and draw closer and closer to Him.

The difference between the Protestant and I seems to really lie in “irresistible grace” vs “resistible grace.” As Catholics we believe that we can reject God’s grace and walk away from Jesus.

Am I right or wrong? He insists that what I’m saying isn’t really Catholic.

 

[Remember_Me]

Protestants believe that you can reject God’s grace and walk away from Jesus too. Well, I can’t say all do, but I agree with your post. In my opinion, you did a good job defending Catholicism.

 

[4love2God]

Kep 1983 says :"None of the good works we do even after being justified come from ourselves. All of our good works come from Christ through the Holy Spirit."

I certainly do NOT agree.

The Holy Spirit does NOT have that much power over very many people.
The Holy Spirit is there to inspire us, and give us energy.
We are not robots, who act out our lives according to the Will of God.
In fact, VERY few people know what God’s Will is most of the time.

I am the one who ACTS on that inspiration, to do Good Works.

Kep, I think you are trying to steal-away any possible merits I might receive from God for performing Good Works.
If you want to say that about how you are, that is fine with me.

 

[KEP1983]

Kep 1983 says :"None of the good works we do even after being justified come from ourselves. All of our good works come from Christ through the Holy Spirit."

I certainly do NOT agree.

The Holy Spirit does NOT have that much power over very many people.
The Holy Spirit is there to inspire us, and give us energy.
We are not robots, who act out our lives according to the Will of God.
In fact, VERY few people know what God’s Will is most of the time.

I am the one who ACTS on that inspiration, to do Good Works.

Kep, I think you are trying to steal-away any possible merits I might receive from God for performing Good Works.
If you want to say that about how you are, that is fine with me.

Interesting 4love2god, so you believe you can do good works on your own without the grace of God?

Then what is your opinion of catechism 2007 and 2008?

2007 With regard to God,** there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man.** Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

 

[empther]

If you stop reading at paragraph 2008 of the CCC,
it seems that we can’t earn our way to Heaven.
But Jesus said, “Great is your reward in Heaven.”

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven
– Matt 5, 12

If Jesus said we merit something, that settles it.

Let’s move on in the CCC.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm#III

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

Sounds to me like we have some merit.

Otherwise,
if we can’t merit anything then it seems God is not just to condemn anyone since they couldn’t do anything to save themselves.

 

[Gorgias]

Hello all,

I’ve been having a discussion with a Protestant I know. Of course, he “really understands Catholicism,” and insists that I don’t.

He believes that the Church teaches that we do good works, and these good works merit justification/sanctification which merits us salvation.

Stop him right there. Catholics don’t believe that good works merit justification. Justification is a free gift from God; we don’t ‘merit’ it in any way.

Am I right or wrong? He insists that what I’m saying isn’t really Catholic.

As long as you say that his interpretation of the Catholic perspective on justification is off-base, then what you’re saying is in no way “not really Catholic.”

 

[KEP1983]

I called into the Catholic Answers radio show today, and it should be up on podcast today or tomorrow. I explained my view on faith and works, and Tim Staples very much agreed with me.

It seems that the Catholics on here who want to discuss merit aren’t understanding the distinction between a reward and a wage, and aren’t understanding the order of grace and works. When Protestants discuss “works righteousness” and claim that Protestants believe we earn salvation, they typically mean that Catholics believe we do good works by our own accord, and then God gives us salvation in response to our good works.

The Catholic understanding is that all faith and good works come from God’s grace. We can’t do good works by our own nature, but can only do so by cooperating with the Holy Spirit. That is, the Holy Spirit moves us to have faith and works, and our free will either cooperates with the graces given or rejects them. The merits we receive come from Christ, and we simply cooperate with the graces given. We don’t conjure up our own merits.

If you don’t believe me, listen to today’s episode from Tim Staples on Catholic Answers Live, from 6-7 pm. My call was around 6:45ish.

If you stop reading at paragraph 2008 of the CCC,
it seems that we can’t earn our way to Heaven.

I’ll continue on from 2008 if you’d like. All of the CCC discussion of merit agrees with what I’m saying.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. **Moved by the Holy Spirit **and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

But Jesus said, “Great is your reward in Heaven.”

Correct. Reward. Not wage.

Otherwise,
if we can’t merit anything then it seems God is not just to condemn anyone since they couldn’t do anything to save themselves.

Actually, God only condemns someone if they resist the grace of the Holy Spirit. So He’s just to condemn someone if they’ve received the grace of God and then reject it.

He’s not just to condemn someone if they haven’t received His grace, and thus are not culpable for rejecting His grace.

 

[KEP1983]

Stop him right there. Catholics don’t believe that good works merit justification. Justification is a free gift from God; we don’t ‘merit’ it in any way.

As long as you say that his interpretation of the Catholic perspective on justification is off-base, then what you’re saying is in no way “not really Catholic.”

Correct Gorgias. Thank you

 

[4love2God]

kep1983 quotes from the Catechism"2008 :** “The merit of good works is to be attributed
(1) in the first place to the grace of God, then
(2) to the faithful.
Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.”**

Man does NOT have the Power to force God to give him Grace.
So (according to Item #1) we know that any Merit we earn, is allowed by the Grace we receive from God the Father.
Then (according to #2) the Merit that I receive for my Good Works is attributed to me.
This means to me : I performed the Good Work, for which God graced me with Merit;
therefore, God then granted me Merit, in the abundance God chooses for me to receive. (Thanks God)

Then, the other part :** “Man’s merit… itself is due to God, for [man’s] good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.”**
This means to me : a Christian can perform his Good Works (and ask Jesus Christ to bless his efforts), and Christ will bless those Good Works.
And, the Holy Spirit gives us the energy and inspiration to perform Good Works.
If it was any other way, then NO non-Christian could EVER perform Good Works in this World.

As I said before : “I performed the Good Work, for which God graced me with Merit;
therefore, God then granted me Merit, in the abundance God chooses for me to receive.”
This tells me that I am NOT some robot who is blindly following Jesus or the Holy Spirit (nor could very many other people, unless they have a telephone line direct to God).
I get some inspiration from the Trinity, I get some support in my efforts, I get the Merit.

 

[empther]

We can’t get to Heaven without God’s help,

but God can’t get us to Heaven without our help.

 

[KEP1983]

kep1983 quotes from the Catechism"2008 :** “The merit of good works is to be attributed
(1) in the first place to the grace of God, then
(2) to the faithful.
Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.”**

Man does NOT have the Power to force God to give him Grace.
So (according to Item #1) we know that any Merit we earn, is allowed by the Grace we receive from God the Father.
Then (according to #2) the Merit that I receive for my Good Works is attributed to me.
This means to me : I performed the Good Work, for which God graced me with Merit;
therefore, God then granted me Merit, in the abundance God chooses for me to receive. (Thanks God)

Then, the other part :** “Man’s merit… itself is due to God, for [man’s] good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.”**
This means to me : a Christian can perform his Good Works (and ask Jesus Christ to bless his efforts), and Christ will bless those Good Works.
And, the Holy Spirit gives us the energy and inspiration to perform Good Works.
If it was any other way, then NO non-Christian could EVER perform Good Works in this World.

As I said before : “I performed the Good Work, for which God graced me with Merit;
therefore, God then granted me Merit, in the abundance God chooses for me to receive.”
This tells me that I am NOT some robot who is blindly following Jesus or the Holy Spirit (nor could very many other people, unless they have a telephone line direct to God).
I get some inspiration from the Trinity, I get some support in my efforts, I get the Merit.

What you’ve said here sounds good. The problem when discussing merit with a Protestant is that they understand it as “merit vs faith alone.” That is, it’s either my good works-- I do good works which earns me a wage of salvation-- or I just believe and have faith alone (and trust only in Jesus merits). It’s a false dichotomy set up in most Protestant’s worldview.

The truth is that we don’t do anything from our own nature, but any good we do first comes from God’s grace.

I think what you’re arguing against is the idea of irrestitible grace (hence your comment about not being a robot forced to cooperate with God’s grace). I agree with you-- this is what Calvinists believe. God’s grace is most certainly resistible. But our good works still can only be done by cooperating with God’s grace, and not from ourselves.

But yes, we receive merit as a reward-- not a wage-- and only after we’re already in a state of justification; not to get INTO a state of justification.

When Protestants accuse us of works-righteousness or Pelagianism, they typically think we’re doing good works to get INTO a state of justification; rather than doing good works AFTER justification.

Anyways, I’ve had mixed comments on here. I’ll send my brother the snippet from me and Tim Staples.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

In Matthew 25 we find Christ teaching us the necessity and the power of works. He invites us to perform them, and warns that if we do not accept his invitation, we perish. His invitation is grace, our obedience is salvation.

Faith without works is dead. The devils also believe in God … but they perish.