Protestantism in 15, 20 + years?

[Brandall]

An interesting trend in my part of the country (Georgia USA) is the rise of the protestant mega church. They tend to seat 5000+ on any given Sunday and are growing like crazy.

My wife and daughter attend one of these and it is divided into 4 different campuses that, I believe, all fall under the same administration. I’ve been there twice for services and while it’s not for me, many people tend to enjoy that. They aren’t under any banner of a typical denomination but the senior pastor is the son of a somewhat famous Baptist minister so they probably slant that way.

I’ve seen some of the smaller denominational churches become extinct but I don’t really know if that is a trend. It might just be that the areas these churches have existed can no longer support these smaller (600 seat sanctuary of less) denominational churches.

I have no idea where protestant denominations will be in 20 years. In my little corner of the country, they’re not going away. It’s unlikely these mega churches or the smaller denominational churches will either convert to Catholicism in mass, all fall away or become extinct.

My daughter is 12 and is very happy in the mega church. I’m okay with that because she is learning about god. 12 year old girls are horrible to each other and it’s good to have an oasis that is safe and peaceful. For that I’m grateful. I grew up in a baptist church and I’m sure what she is learning is very close to what I’ve learned. Therefore I have a basis to discuss what she is learning and to help her with it.

 

[Gullveig]

An interesting trend in my part of the country (Georgia USA) is the rise of the protestant mega church

Yeah, I’m from the same general area and those things are everywhere. I can’t even believe how big some of them are, they’re like Christian malls.

I don’t have a really good reason for it, but I’ve been to one of them to pacify a friend once and there was just something “off” about it, but then again I don’t have much to compare it to. If I was forced to go to a Christian church, I’d rather go to the tiny country baptist church with like 100 people down the road from my house than one of the huge mega churches.

Also, Catholics, if you do re-absorb all the protestants sometime in the next 50 years, can you convince them to stop sending me junk mail? I get the weirdest mail from the pentacostal church across town.

 

[Brandall]

Yeah, I’m from the same general area and those things are everywhere. I can’t even believe how big some of them are, they’re like Christian malls.

I don’t have a really good reason for it, but I’ve been to one of them to pacify a friend once and there was just something “off” about it, but then again I don’t have much to compare it to. If I was forced to go to a Christian church, I’d rather go to the tiny country baptist church with like 100 people down the road from my house than one of the huge mega churches.

Also, Catholics, if you do re-absorb all the protestants sometime in the next 50 years, can you convince them to stop sending me junk mail? I get the weirdest mail from the pentacostal church across town.

I think I had mentioned that I had been “twice” to my wife and daughter’s mega church. There are reasons that it was only twice. I would go back to the baptist church where I grew up than to be a mega church member.

 

[TK421]

Mainline Protestantism (Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican) will all continue to decline. Evangelical churches will continue to grow.

Protestant churches that tend to be stubbornly faithful to sound doctrines also tend to be simple-minded. Protestant churches that tend to be more open to inquiry also tend to bend their spines to secular culture. It’s difficult within protestantism to find groups that embrace both things without compromising on one or the other. It’s what I craved for and well… I stumbled into Catholicism.

Conservative evangelical churches, such as Pentecostals, will experience robust growth. 7th Day Adventist will experience robust growth. Mormons and JW’s will experience robust growth. All of the more traditional protestant churches will suffer decline.

That’s my guess.

 

[ufamtobie]

I was having a talk the other day with my mom who I am trying to get to become Catholic, and I started talking about the future of protestantism, and I have been thinking about it a lot more. Having grown up in the very heavy protestant, South I’ve noticed trends within the different churches in that area and wanted to know other peoples thoughts.

Where do you think protestantism will be in 15-20+ years? I am not only talking about the mainline churches which I know are dying, but I’m talking about the baptists, non-denom’s and that type. Would be interested in seeing if other peoples opinion match up with mine, which I will post a little bit later when people have responded.

NorthTexan,

33,000 protestant churches X 1.5 = to many man made churches not of God and all stating they have the authority to bind and loose.

There are thousands of protestant churches today, 15 or 20 years from now, I hope all have come Home.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Skye_Ariel]

I don’t think the protestant church will go away, it may change and shift a lot because it’s not stable, but it won’t go away. And like the other poster said, protestants are not bad people, they are just misinformed. They mean well, and truly love God and think they have found the right path. As long as there’s a hunger for God, there will always be those who are drawn to the protestant church. I wish they would **all **come back home to the Catholic church, but you can’t put that Genie back in the bottle unfortunately.

 

[Cat]

I think it depends on what Catholics do with the New Evangelization.

 

[JonNC]

“Source, please, where Luther says this.”

Read his works. His entire creed was “faith alone” and “predestination” with no room for works and free will. Hence John Esp

His position on Revelations was: "In the 16th century, Martin Luther initially considered it to be “neither apostolic nor prophetic” and stated that “Christ is neither taught nor known in it,” and placed it in his Antilegomena (his list of questionable documents), though he retracted this view in later life.

“Luther himself took the liberty of criticizing some of these books in a polemical manner which few Lutherans today would find completely acceptable. He had a low view of Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Revelation, and so when he published his New Testament in 1522 he placed these books apart at the end. In his Preface to Hebrews, which comes first in the series, he says, “Up to this point we have had to do with the true and certain chief books of the New Testament. The four which follow have from ancient times had a different reputation”.” From: Luther’s Treatment of the ‘Disputed Books’
of the New Testament at: bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html

“The undue importance he had placed on his own strength in the spiritual process of justification, he now peremptorily and completely rejected. He convinced himself that man, as a consequence of original sin, was totally depraved, destitute of free will, that all works, even though directed towards the good, were nothing more than an outgrowth of his corrupted will, and in the judgments of God in reality mortal sins. Man can be saved by faith alone. Our faith in Christ makes His merits our possession, envelops us in the garb of righteousness, which our guilt and sinfulness hide, and supplies in abundance every defect of human righteousness.”

James 2

"14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?

17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead."

This makes Martin Luther’s creed of Faith Alone (Soli Fidelis) look rather silly, don’t you think?

If one understands sola fide, no. In fact, it looks rather compelling. But you said he wanted to purge the NT Antilegomena. Considering that his first published NT contains them all, it seems an odd way to purge them.

Jon

 

[Stilldreamn]

This is a possibility for some Lutherans, particularly if they/we/I see the communion swerve away from confessions. For example, the LCMS is, for me, the last bastion of confessional Lutheranism in America. Were it to succumb to the liberal trend that has swallowed up the ELCA, I might find Rome the only viable alternative, as there are no Orthodox churches nearby.

Jon

This is very much how I feel as well. The thought that troubles me is this - IF Rome is a viable alternative and I have confidence that she will be there to pick up the pieces, why is this choice acceptable in the future, but not now?

I feel like I’m hedging my bets.

 

[steido01]

This is very much how I feel as well. The thought that troubles me is this - IF Rome is a viable alternative and I have confidence that she will be there to pick up the pieces, why is this choice acceptable in the future, but not now?

I feel like I’m hedging my bets.

Maybe my optimistic youth is showing, but I do not see the LCMS wandering from the Confessions and Holy Scripture anytime soon. We are now far removed from the upheaval that plagued the church (both protestant and Roman Catholic) in the 1960’s and 1970’s. If anything, we’ll continue to purge our pastoral ranks of pietist, charismatic and new age influences and strengthen our resolve to catechize properly. The emphasis we Missourians have put on traditional, Lutheran education at all levels - Sunday school, confirmation, our school systems and the Concordia University system - will ensure the survival (no, the growth!) of Confessional Lutheran doctrine for the foreseeable future.

I do not envision a day when the least-offensive alternative is Rome. “Lutheran Catholicism” will always endure. However, I do see our renewed focus on the Confessions as the catalyst for closer relations with our orthodox brethren in Rome and Orthodoxy. Fruit is already beginning to grow in Canada, where our sister church (Lutheran Church - Canada) has entered into real, formal dialogue with the RCC.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

15/ 20 years is a very short period of time. Not a lot will happen but continuing trends should become more evident.

I think Christianity overall will continue to shrink especially in “Western” countries [North America/ Europe]. Even in South America, conservative “Catholic” nations are passing gay marriage laws as an example of the diminishing influence of the Church. On the other hand, Pope Francis has major appeal and if he maintains his focus on the poor and young, we will see a re-emergence of the Catholic faith but it will also mean change that some Catholics may not want to see.

Among the “Catholic” early Reformation churches, especially Anglican and Lutheran, the closer ties will only become stronger. The Provoo Communion has embraced nearly all Lutherans and Anglicans in their “national” homeland. This is the center of Lutheranism with considerable dialogue with Rome that will only get stronger, as well.

In the U.S./ Canada, Lutherans & Episcopal/ Anglicans are following the Provoo Communion which has already re-established episcopacy/ Apostolic Succession for both churches. More merged parishes and eventual church-wide union between Lutherans [other than LCMS] and Anglicans but this may not be fully realized within 15-20 years.

Some Calvinists churches [Presbyterian/ Methodist] will follow Lutherans into a more ‘catholic’ expression though the full communion between the ELCA and these 2 Christian denominations will be slower than the Episcopal Church. The fact that both TEC & ELCA have female presiding bishops the Lutheran is married to an Episcopal priest] was not an accident; we will see even more mutual eucharistic hospitality/ combined parishes]. The Anglican Church of Canada & the Lutheran Church of Canada even held their assemblies together a month ago.

 

[andrewstx]

I was having a talk the other day with my mom who I am trying to get to become Catholic, and I started talking about the future of protestantism, and I have been thinking about it a lot more. Having grown up in the very heavy protestant, South I’ve noticed trends within the different churches in that area and wanted to know other peoples thoughts.

Where do you think protestantism will be in 15-20+ years? I am not only talking about the mainline churches which I know are dying, but I’m talking about the baptists, non-denom’s and that type. Would be interested in seeing if other peoples opinion match up with mine, which I will post a little bit later when people have responded.

I live in Texas as well, and I see things in much the same way. The mega-churches are growing like mad in Texas and apparently nationwide. The biggest church in the city I used to live in was Baptist, the built a new auditorium style church and changed their name to “non-denominational” but only changed the name and continue to be Baptist. I see this nearly everywhere, churches changing names only.

I really have the impression that these people in “non-denominational” denominations think they are the only Christians and all others will go to hell. Witness the proliferation of “Christian” schools, “Christian” bookstores. “Christian” media. It is defineatly a major trend. But just try and find a Catholic bible or any Catholic book in one of those generic “non-denominational” book stores like Mardel, it is impossible. It is exasperating.
Near to me there is a “non-denominational” cowboy church. I toy with the idea of asking them since they are “non-denominational” to baptize my month old child, and listen to the screams. You see this “non-denominational” church is really part of the Southern Baptist Convention hiding under the “non-denominational” label.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I was having a talk the other day with my mom who I am trying to get to become Catholic, and I started talking about the future of protestantism, and I have been thinking about it a lot more. Having grown up in the very heavy protestant, South I’ve noticed trends within the different churches in that area and wanted to know other peoples thoughts.

Where do you think protestantism will be in 15-20+ years? I am not only talking about the mainline churches which I know are dying, but I’m talking about the baptists, non-denom’s and that type. Would be interested in seeing if other peoples opinion match up with mine, which I will post a little bit later when people have responded.

Many chuckles

:manvspc:

 

[Aelred_Minor]

15/ 20 years is a very short period of time. Not a lot will happen but continuing trends should become more evident.

I think Christianity overall will continue to shrink especially in “Western” countries [North America/ Europe]. Even in South America, conservative “Catholic” nations are passing gay marriage laws as an example of the diminishing influence of the Church. On the other hand, Pope Francis has major appeal and if he maintains his focus on the poor and young, we will see a re-emergence of the Catholic faith but it will also mean change that some Catholics may not want to see.

Among the “Catholic” early Reformation churches, especially Anglican and Lutheran, the closer ties will only become stronger. The Provoo Communion has embraced nearly all Lutherans and Anglicans in their “national” homeland. This is the center of Lutheranism with considerable dialogue with Rome that will only get stronger, as well.

In the U.S./ Canada, Lutherans & Episcopal/ Anglicans are following the Provoo Communion which has already re-established episcopacy/ Apostolic Succession for both churches. More merged parishes and eventual church-wide union between Lutherans [other than LCMS] and Anglicans but this may not be fully realized within 15-20 years.

Some Calvinists churches [Presbyterian/ Methodist] will follow Lutherans into a more ‘catholic’ expression though the full communion between the ELCA and these 2 Christian denominations will be slower than the Episcopal Church. The fact that both TEC & ELCA have female presiding bishops the Lutheran is married to an Episcopal priest] was not an accident; we will see even more mutual eucharistic hospitality/ combined parishes]. The Anglican Church of Canada & the Lutheran Church of Canada even held their assemblies together a month ago.

Small clarification, with the exception one small (extinct?) Irish branch of Methodism the Methodists are emphatically not Calvinist. Indeed, growing up in the United Methodist Church there was considerably more anti-Calvinism than anti-Catholicism or anti-anything else. Classically Methodists are Wesleyan Arminians, and where there has been a shift in this it has generally been towards the Pelagian side of the spectrum rather than the Calvinist side. In two extreme examples (not characteristic except as caricatures), back in the day some Methodist pastors (not John Wesley himself) would deny divine foreknowledge of human choices because it was too much like predestination. More recently, I read an article in a Methodist magazine in which a female United Methodist minister praised the teachings of Pelagius and criticized the Augustinian idea of Original Sin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

sigh
Source, please, where Luther says this.

…

There is a web page with some information on Luther’s Treatment of the ‘Disputed Books’
of the New Testament. Click here to see it.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Small clarification, with the exception one small (extinct?) Irish branch of Methodism the Methodists are emphatically not Calvinist. Indeed, growing up in the United Methodist Church there was considerably more anti-Calvinism than anti-Catholicism or anti-anything else. Classically Methodists are Wesleyan Arminians, and where there has been a shift in this it has generally been towards the Pelagian side of the spectrum rather than the Calvinist side. In two extreme examples (not characteristic except as caricatures), back in the day some Methodist pastors (not John Wesley himself) would deny divine foreknowledge of human choices because it was too much like predestination. More recently, I read an article in a Methodist magazine in which a female United Methodist minister praised the teachings of Pelagius and criticized the Augustinian idea of Original Sin.

Me excuse my broad-brush w/ your wonderful clarification

 

[chero23]

It will be blessing in the sky if les denominations exist and more start coming to the Catholic Church which has the Truth.

 

[movwater]

If one understands sola fide, no. In fact, it looks rather compelling. But you said he wanted to purge the NT Antilegomena. Considering that his first published NT contains them all, it seems an odd way to purge them.

Jon

He knew that he couldn’t. If he thought he could get away with it. I’m pretty sure he would have. Please note that his main theology was based only of Faith Alone. Obviously John’s Epistle takes exception directly to such a theology. Poor Father Martin Luther was a torn soul as he approached his rendezvous with death:

"Luther’s rugged health began to show marks of depleting vitality and unchecked inroads of disease. Prolonged attacks of dyspepsia, nervous headaches, chronic granular kidney disease, gout, sciatic rheumatism, middle ear abscesses, above all vertigo and gall stone colic were intermittent or chronic ailments that gradually made him the typical embodiment of a supersensitively nervous, prematurely old man. These physical impairments were further aggravated by his notorious disregard of all ordinary dietetic or hygienic restrictions. Even prescinding from his congenital heritage of inflammable irascibility and uncontrollable rage, besetting infirmities that grew deeper and more acute with age, his physical condition in itself would measurably account for his increasing irritation, passionate outbreaks, and hounding suspicions, which in his closing days became a problem more of pathological or psychopathic interest, than biographic or historical importance.

It was this “terrible temper” which brought on the tragedy of alienation, that drove from him his most devoted friends and zealous co-labourers. Every contradiction set him ablaze. “Hardly one of us”, in the lament of one of his votaries, “can escape Luther’s anger and his public scourging” (Corp. Ref., V, 314). Carlstadt parted with him in 1522, after what threatened to be a personal encounter; Melancthon in plaintive tones speaks of his passionate violence, self-will, and tyranny, and does not mince words in confessing the humiliation of his ignoble servitude; Bucer, prompted by political and diplomatic motives, prudently accepts the inevitable “just as the Lord bestowed him on us”; Zwingli “has become a pagan, Œcolampadius . . . and the other heretics have in-devilled, through-devilled, over-devilled corrupt hearts and lying mouths, and no one should pray for them”, all of them “were brought to their death by the fiery darts and spears of the devil” (Walch, op. cit., XX, 223); Calvin and the Reformed are also the possessors of “in-deviled, over-devilled, and through-devilled hearts”; Schurf, the eminent jurist, was changed from an ally to an opponent, with a brutality that defies all explanation or apology; Agricola fell a prey to a repugnance that time did not soften; Schwenkfeld, Armsdorf, Cordatus, all incurred his ill will, forfeited his friendship, and became the butt of his stinging speech.

“The Luther, who from a distance was still honoured as the hero and leader of the new church, was only tolerated at its centre in consideration of his past services” (Ranke, op. cit., II, 421). The zealous band of men, who once clustered about their standard-bearer, dwindled to an insignificant few, insignificant in number, intellectuality, and personal prestige. A sense of isolation palled the days of his decline. It not alone affected his disposition, but played the most astonishing pranks with his memory. The oftener he details to his table companions, the faithful chroniclers who gave us his “Tischreden”, the horrors of the papacy, the more starless does the night of his monastic life appear. “The picture of his youth grows darker and darker. He finally becomes a myth to himself. Not only do dates shift themselves, but also facts. When the old man drops into telling tales, the past attains the plasticity of wax. He ascribes the same words promiscuously now to this, now to that friend or enemy” (Hausrath, op. cit., II, 432).

It was this period that gave birth to the incredibilities, exaggerations, distortions, contradictions, inconsistencies, that make his later writing an inextricable web to untangle and for three hundred years have supplied uncritical historiography with the cock-and-bull fables which unfortunately have been accepted on their face value. Again the dire results of the Reformation caused him “unspeakable solicitude and grief”. The sober contemplation of the incurable inner wounds of the new Church, the ceaseless quarrels of the preachers, the galling despotism of the temporal rulers, the growing contempt for the clergy, the servility to the princes, made him fairly writhe in anguish. Above all the disintegration of moral and social life, the epidemic ravages of vice and immorality, and that in the very cradle of the Reformation, even in his very household, nearly drove him frantic. “We live in Sodom and Babylon, affairs are growing daily worse”, is his lament (De Wette, op. cit., V, 722). In the whole Wittenberg district, with its two cities and fifteen parochial villages, he can find “only one peasant and not more, who exhorts his domestics to the Word of God and the catechism, the rest plunge headlong to the devil” (Lauterbach, “Tagebuch”, 113, 114, 135; *Döllinger, “Die Reformation”, I, 293-438). "

From: Martin Luther at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Some churches will continue to remain conservative, standing by traditional protestantism, some churches will gradually accept more and more liberal doctrines (Anglicans are the most susceptible to this) and will gradually become something different than what they once were/

 

[bill99]

they will be another 200 denamtions that know one has heard about