Protestantism in 15, 20 + years?

[JonNC]

No, I will quote yours:“It holds that the eating of the body and the drinking of the blood of Christ, though truly done with the mouth of the body, is not Capernaitic, or natural, but supernatural. It affirms that this real presence is effected, not by any human power, but by the omnipotent power of Christ in accordance with the words of the institution of the Sacrament.”

However, it does not admit “Transubstantiation” - the the bread and wine has been transubstaniated into Jesus, the Christ’s ACTUAL body and blood. This come from Capernaitic describes something characterised by materialistic conceptions like those of the Capernaites. A Capernaite is a native or inhabitant of Capernaum or one who believes in transubstantiation."

Your quote proves that you and Luther rejected the teachings of Jesus, the Christ’s teachings in John 6. This teachings created the Church’s first heretic, Judas, who could not accept Transubstantiation, as taught by Jesus in Capernaum, and cause him to betray Jesus to Priests of the Temple.

Please see John 6, in context!

I’ve read John 6, thank you. There is no rejection of Jesus teaching here. Even Catholic theologians recognize such.

Catholic and Lutheran Christians together confess the real and true presence of the Lord in the Eucharist. There are differences, however, in theological statements on the mode and therefore duration of the real presence.

In order to confess the reality of the eucharistic presence without reserve the Catholic Church teaches that "Christ whole and entire"34 becomes present through the transformation of the whole substance of the bread and the wine into the substance of the body and blood of Christ while the empirically accessible appearances of bread and wine (accidentia) continue to exist unchanged. This “wonderful and singular change” is “most aptly” called transsubstantiation by the Catholic Church.35 This terminology has widely been considered by Lutherans as an attempt rationalistically to explain the mystery of Christ’s presence in the sacrament; further, many suppose also that in this approach the present Lord is not seen as a person and naturalistic misunderstandings become easy.

The Lutherans have given expression to the reality of the Eucharistic presence by speaking of presence of Christ’s body and blood in, with and under bread and wine�but not of transsubstantiation. Here they see real analogy to the Lord’s incarnation: as God and man become one in Jesus Christ, Christ’s body and blood, on the one hand, and the bread and wine, on the other, give rise to a sacramental unity. Catholics, in turn, find that this does not do sufficient justice to this very unity and to the force of Christ’s word “This is my body”.

The ecumenical discussion has shown that these two positions must no longer be regarded as opposed in a way that leads to separation. The Lutheran tradition agrees with the Catholic tradition that the consecrated elements do not simply remain bread and wine but by the power of the creative Word are bestowed as the body and blood of Christ. In this sense it also could occasionally speak, as does the Greek tradition of a “change”.36 The concept of transsubstantiation for its part is intended as a confession and preservation of the mystery character of the Eucharistic presence; it is not intended as an explanation of how this change occurs37 (see the appendices on “Real Presence” and “Christ’s Presence in the Eucharist”).

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

I would contend that your thinking regarding Lutheran / Catholic relations is dated.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

And you point is what? That Luther was lost and couldn’t make up his mind? The bottom line is his own words on justification. How do you (he) reconcile his heretic theory of Antinomianism (See: Antinomianism at: newadvent.org/cathen/01564b.htm with the plan words of the Epistle of James?

The point is Luther’s translation included all the books of the typical western Bible, plus 1.

On topic again, I don’t see the LCMS, or the ILC (International Lutheran Council) slipping toward the liberal modernist direction of much of mainline Protestantism. In fact, on the issue of morals, while there are differences, I see the LCMS and USCCB becoming rather like allies over the next few years. Perhaps the Spirit will use this alliance to move us into deeper dialogue on the theological side, as well.

Jon

PS: Oh, and Luther spoke out rather strongly against Antinomianism.

 

[movwater]

I’ve read John 6, thank you. There is no rejection of Jesus teaching here. Even Catholic theologians recognize such.

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

I would contend that your thinking regarding Lutheran / Catholic relations is dated.

Jon

So you admit that the Church’s teaching on Transubstantiation is the Truth. I am not so sure your Lutheran Brothers and Namesake founder would agree with you. I suggest that if the present Lutheran Church reject the teachings of Martin Luther, it might be proper for them to change their name to something more appropriate. “Catholic Light” perhaps! Where do you stand on Reconciliation, Confession, Absolution and Penitence? If you agree with the Church’s teaching on this Sacrament, than you belong in the Real One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[JonNC]

So you admit that the Church’s teaching on Transubstantiation is the Truth. I am not so sure your Lutheran Brothers and Namesake founder would agree with you. I suggest that if the present Lutheran Church reject the teachings of Martin Luther, it might be proper for them to change their name to something more appropriate. “Catholic Light” perhaps! Where do you stand on Reconciliation, Confession, Absolution and Penitence? If you agree with the Church’s teaching on this Sacrament, than you belong in the Real One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - the Roman Catholic Church.

May I suggest a new thread, since this further leads us off topic. If you start it, I will participate, assuming a level of charity and good will abide.

Jon

 

[movwater]

May I suggest a new thread, since this further leads us off topic. If you start it, I will participate, assuming a level of charity and good will abide.

Jon

Hi, Jon,

I did! See “How Old is Your Church” on Apologetic Form. Meet you there and we can continue our discussion.

Regards, and God Bless,

Neal

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Lutherans seek unity. Our prayer and active commitment is reunification of holy Church. The ELCA has accords with Reformed/ Methodist celebrating an acceptance of confessional Lutheranism as a means for the broad return to Rome of as many Christians as possible.

 

[movwater]

Lutherans seek unity. Our prayer and active commitment is reunification of holy Church. The ELCA has accords with Reformed/ Methodist celebrating an acceptance of confessional Lutheranism as a means for the broad return to Rome of as many Christians as possible.

Amen!

 

[Pedro_1987]

I honestly don’t see Protestantism going anywhere anytime soon. If the churches reunite into Catholicism, it won’t be within our lifetime. Protestantism is easy to pick up, easy to learn, and easy to follow (easier than catholicism anyway). That means it appeals to masses. It especially appeals to those who don’t want to go all the way into atheism, but don’t want the strictness of Catholicism. All some denominations require is a proclamation of Jesus, and that’s it. In short, Protestantism is far too user friendly to die out.

If anything, Catholicism might be in danger. How many more popes can we go through before we hit a liberal one? And the fact that so many people are Catholics only because their parents forced them, and this generation is rapidly getting away from that, going as far as letting children make their own mind up (because leaving a person who literally knows nothing answer complicated philosophical decisions on their own is such a good idea). And how much the world hates us, and the sex scandal, many dont want to be part of us anymore.

 

[JonNC]

=Pedro_1987;11156869]I honestly don’t see Protestantism going anywhere anytime soon. If the churches reunite into Catholicism, it won’t be within our lifetime. **Protestantism is easy to pick up, easy to learn, and easy to follow (easier than catholicism anyway). **That means it appeals to masses. It especially appeals to those who don’t want to go all the way into atheism, but don’t want the strictness of Catholicism. All some denominations require is a proclamation of Jesus, and that’s it. In short, Protestantism is far too user friendly to die out.

Easy, huh? I give the Christian book of Concord.
www.bookofconcord.org

If anything, Catholicism might be in danger. How many more popes can we go through before we hit a liberal one? And the fact that so many people are Catholics only because their parents forced them, and this generation is rapidly getting away from that, going as far as letting children make their own mind up (because leaving a person who literally knows nothing answer complicated philosophical decisions on their own is such a good idea). And how much the world hates us, and the sex scandal, many dont want to be part of us anymore.

The CC is 1.2 billion living souls. I don’t see the CC going away anytime soon. And anyway, that would NOT be a good thing for Christianity.

Jon

 

[KEP1983]

I was having a talk the other day with my mom who I am trying to get to become Catholic, and I started talking about the future of protestantism, and I have been thinking about it a lot more. Having grown up in the very heavy protestant, South I’ve noticed trends within the different churches in that area and wanted to know other peoples thoughts.

Where do you think protestantism will be in 15-20+ years? I am not only talking about the mainline churches which I know are dying, but I’m talking about the baptists, non-denom’s and that type. Would be interested in seeing if other peoples opinion match up with mine, which I will post a little bit later when people have responded.

I just emailed with a Protestant minister a week or two ago and was on this subject a little bit. He’s very very anti-Catholic. He’s associated with a large Evangelical tv/radio ministry, though not on air himself.

We were discussing Church authority. I said that many Protestant denominations are beginning to accept homosexuality and/or gay marriage-- and not just the liberal mainline ones either.

I think that charge is hard to defend. Even big name Protestant ministers recognize that the Evangelical churches are starting to accept liberalism more and more.

I suspect that the majority of Protestant churches will accept homosexuality and gay marriage in one way or another. They’ll simply do a little Scriptural twisting and a “fresh understanding” of the Biblical texts that discuss homosexuality. “Paul isn’t really about homosexuality, he’s talking about pagan worship practices” or the like.

So I predict the majority of Protestants will look like the liberal mainline denominations in another 20 years.

 

[Brandall]

I just emailed with a Protestant minister a week or two ago and was on this subject a little bit. He’s very very anti-Catholic.

We were discussing Church authority. I said that many Protestant denominations are beginning to accept homosexuality and/or gay marriage-- and not just the liberal mainline ones either.

I think that charge is hard to defend. Even big name Protestant ministers recognize that the Evangelical churches are starting to accept liberalism more and more.

I suspect that the majority of Protestant churches will accept homosexuality and gay marriage in one way or another. They’ll simply do a little Scriptural twisting and a “fresh understanding” of the Biblical texts that discuss homosexuality. “Paul isn’t really about homosexuality, he’s talking about pagan worship practices” or the like.

So I predict the majority of Protestants will look like the liberal mainline denominations in another 20 years.

I emphatically disagree with you. There will be factions of liberal mainline denominations that accept homosexual marriage in 20 years but nowhere near a protestant majority.

 

[KEP1983]

I emphatically disagree with you. There will be factions of liberal mainline denominations that accept homosexual marriage in 20 years but nowhere near a protestant majority.

I think it’s already close to a majority. Most Christians in the USA now accept civil unions similar to marriages. A few of the churches have officially accepted gay marriage; but once the masses within the churches have accepted it, so will their leaders. All it takes is a way to reinterpret the passages in the Bible so that verses discussing homosexuality are “really” talking about pagan worship practices or something else. This is already being done in Protestant circles-- and not just the mainline denominations.

Protestantism can change their beliefs on doctrines at will. There’s no reason Protestants couldn’t have a newer understanding of these passages. Once the masses accept it, this will be the majority interpretation.

Catholicism is different. Even if the majority of Catholics accept gay marriage, the Church still can’t change its teaching, since the Church has already infallibly defined that homosexual behavior is a grave sin and that marriage is only between a man and a woman. (In fact, the majority of Catholics in America DO accept gay marriage-- and the Church still isn’t budging to change its teachings. Though most of these people are ignorant Catholics who don’t know their faith and/or aren’t practicing)

Protestantism used to be opposed to contraception, now nearly all of them accept it. I suspect gay marriage will be the same.

 

[Pedro_1987]

The CC is 1.2 billion living souls. I don’t see the CC going away anytime soon. And anyway, that would NOT be a good thing for Christianity.

Jon

Yes, we have 1.2 billion claiming to be catholic. But how many are actual followers? How many are just going through the motions, and won’t pass it down? How many are cafeteria?

Of course, it won’t go anywhere in 15-20 years, that’s way too short of a timescale for everything to change like that. In 100 years though? Catholicism will definitely be around, but it probably won’t be as big as it is, assuming the hedonistic liberal philosophy continues to grow and shape the world.

And you’re absolutely right. That isn’t a good thing for Christianity or the world. But the rapid decline of this world is a different discussion for a different time.

 

[Aramis]

I think it’s already close to a majority. Most Christians in the USA now accept civil unions similar to marriages. A few of the churches have officially accepted gay marriage; but once the masses within the churches have accepted it, so will their leaders. All it takes is a way to reinterpret the passages in the Bible so that verses discussing homosexuality are “really” talking about pagan worship practices or something else. This is already being done in Protestant circles-- and not just the mainline denominations.

Protestantism can change their beliefs on doctrines at will. There’s no reason Protestants couldn’t have a newer understanding of these passages. Once the masses accept it, this will be the majority interpretation.

Catholicism is different. Even if the majority of Catholics accept gay marriage, the Church still can’t change its teaching, since the Church has already infallibly defined that homosexual behavior is a grave sin and that marriage is only between a man and a woman. (In fact, the majority of Catholics in America DO accept gay marriage-- and the Church still isn’t budging to change its teachings. Though most of these people are ignorant Catholics who don’t know their faith and/or aren’t practicing)

Protestantism used to be opposed to contraception, now nearly all of them accept it. I suspect gay marriage will be the same.

Looking at Pew Research’s data.

Given that the mainlines account for less than 19% of the US, but evangelicals run just over 26%, and Catholics at 23%.

But of the mainlines, none exceeds 5.4% of the US (the Methodists)
Anglicans (including the extremely liberal ECUSA) are under 1.4%
Lutherans are 2.8%, with the liberal ELCA at 2% of the US… 70% of US lutherans
Traditional Baptists are under 2%.

Evangelical baptists are 10.8%… but they’re a clade, not an organization. About as united as a shotgun blast through a the bars of a jungle-gym…

Over time, they will continune to splinter and separate.

 

[Deana83]

Hi, Jon,

My twin grandsons were baptized in the Lutheran Church. I remark to the Pastor, at the time, how similar much of the service was like that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Pastor me that Lutheran was RC Light. Perhaps some day my grandsons and my son-in-law will come home with me in the Roman Catholic Church. As for the Orthodox Church, you may as well shoot for the “real deal!”

Regards, and God Bless,

Neal

I knew it was similar but never heard it called “RC Light.” I have 2 sons who are college age and they were baptized and confirmed Lutheran. I considered myself Methodist at the time but started going there because I couldn’t get their dad to go anywhere else and I was fine with it, mostly due to liking the pastor so much. Even though they don’t actually attend church now, they are still both really turned off to the whole mega church and non denominational religions because of the lack of tradition and ritual.

 

[exnihilo]

Where do you think protestantism will be in 15-20+ years? I am not only talking about the mainline churches which I know are dying, but I’m talking about the baptists, non-denom’s and that type. Would be interested in seeing if other peoples opinion match up with mine, which I will post a little bit later when people have responded.

I’ll confine my comments to the US. It would seem to me that both church membership and striving to live an orthodox Christian life will be less common in the future. The mainline denominations seem to be in rapid decline and very dependent on the dying generation. I can see the Baptists staying somewhat strong in faith and practice. They may well absorb refuges from other denominations. The non-denominationals are a mixed bag. There are many such Christians with a deep and abiding faith. But within this group it seems to me is also plenty of shallow faith. I don’t see the mega churches in this group as having much a future. The smaller churches might. The mega churches may well continue to exist but as less of an orthodox church and more of a social club. Considered as a group one problem they face is what defines them, their independence. If the trend continues these Christians lacking unity will find it harder to resist the pressures of our degraded society and a government increasingly hostile to Christianity.

I would point out that it is easy to romanticize the past. There have been several revivals or awakenings in the past. This could happen again. It seems part of human nature to fall away from faith and return to it.

 

[Brandall]

It seems part of human nature to fall away from faith and return to it.

“Faith, in the sense in which I am here using the word, is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods… That is why Faith is such a necessary virtue: unless you teach your moods ‘where they get off’, you can never be either a sound Christian or even a sound atheist (p. 140-141).” Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

 

[SuperLuigi]

I was having a talk the other day with my mom who I am trying to get to become Catholic, and I started talking about the future of protestantism, and I have been thinking about it a lot more. Having grown up in the very heavy protestant, South I’ve noticed trends within the different churches in that area and wanted to know other peoples thoughts.

Where do you think protestantism will be in 15-20+ years? I am not only talking about the mainline churches which I know are dying, but I’m talking about the baptists, non-denom’s and that type. Would be interested in seeing if other peoples opinion match up with mine, which I will post a little bit later when people have responded.

Various denominations that are not based on logic that people can relate to will lose membership. Also, ones that don’t see a difference between the denominations and think it doesn’t matter will lose out.

I’d say that non-denominational churches have an advantage over mainstream Protestants.

One of the fundamental problems with Abrahamic religions since Catholicism is that many of them are founded on some kind of personal selfishness.

So, it really is not surprising that a lot of religious denominations are blowing with the wind as far as Western & East Asian secular trends go.

And one of those trends is smaller families, and of some of those families, I assure you their kids are getting bombarded with all kinds of secular nonsense in the education system as educrats and administrators think only of themselves and their benefits first in all too many cases.

I also think a lot of parents are too busy working or making the grave mistake of assuming that funding education left and right is necessary and that maybe they themselves are making a noble sacrifice for the children.

No doubt they will continue to beat the drum of “worshiping statues and Mary”: as their Bible-alone arguments are laughed at by the secular elite and elite wannabes to keep people not so much in their camp but away from our Church.

Ultimately, people will only find the Truth with peace and it seems like they will either reject religion altogether or find a more solid faith such as non-denominational or the Catholic faith.

*Tip: If you really want to glimpse the future, check out this documentary film about a small Lutheran Church in Minnesota called “Delafield”. *

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Easy, huh? I give the Christian book of Concord.
www.bookofconcord.org



Jon

I knew you’d pick up on that, lol.

Yes, LCMS and Orthodox Presbyterians, and I think some Pentecostals are definitely an exception to the group.

 

[rng1929]

"

Maybe not in the next 15 years, but in the next 25-50 years or so I think they will just go away as “churches” altogether. Most of their pastors are now the ‘self-help’ type with very little reference to Jesus anyway. I was invited to a non-denominational church here in Texas. I went one time (still went to mass that week!) and was impressed…with the doughnuts and coffee shop. There was no talk about Jesus, but there was a lot of talk about how prosperous God wants us all to be.

I read somewhere the other day that everyone talks about the fact that Catholics are leaving the church in huge numbers. Apparently (according to what I read), the Catholic church has declined by about 5% over the last decade. Wow. That sounds like a lot of people…until you read that Protestant churches have declined by 48% in the same time period.

It seems to me like “thinking” Protestants (the kind who actually read, study theology, pray and think about their faith) should end up Catholic by defualt."

As the overall Protestant and mainline Evangelical churches continue to move farther away from Sola Scriptura, they will inevitably move towards a more man-centered perspective. This will become evident in the culture and spiritual expressions of those churches. And I think that many will inevitably fall into ecumenism and outright apostasy.

“It seems to me like “thinking” Protestants (the kind who actually read, study theology, pray and think about their faith) should end up Catholic by defualt.”

I don’t know how you can quantify this. I am Protestant and obviously hang out with Protestants. The individuals I know and hang out with read heavily, and are constantly engaged in exegesis of the Scriptures, and as we grow in our knowledge of the Scriptures, Church History (the academic discipline, not a reference to the Roman Catholic Church), etc., we actually continue to see the great gulf between the Roman Catholic Church and the Christianity of the Apostles and the early church.