Protestantism in 15, 20 + years?

[NorthTexan88]

One thing that I would like to know, as I am not overly familiar with this…

Have the last 40-50 years been as bad for protestants as they have been for Catholics? Have they liberalized as much as Catholics have? It’s hard for me to tell because protestantism is so broad. But I would like to know specifically since the 1960’s

 

[SuperLuigi]

One thing that I would like to know, as I am not overly familiar with this…

Have the last 40-50 years been as bad for protestants as they have been for Catholics? Have they liberalized as much as Catholics have? It’s hard for me to tell because protestantism is so broad. But I would like to know specifically since the 1960’s

Secularism has infiltrated a lot of Churches, and as right-wing commentator Glen Beck notes, it’s been going for decades if not longer, but with Catholics it’s more of an attachment to the concept of helping the poor even at the expense of more so-called “gay marriages”, abortion, mandated contraception and turning our religious liberties into a doormat for secular progressive ideals.

The Protestants tend to vote more the way I would and don’t necessarily let “I need to help the poor no matter what” cloud their judgement, but some denominations are in this birthrate malaise. That’s going to be the real killer.

It is true of Catholics to some extent, but socially conservative families seem to be having the children in any denomination, but the problem is there are not that many wholly social conservatives left.

 

[steido01]

One thing that I would like to know, as I am not overly familiar with this…

Have the last 40-50 years been as bad for protestants as they have been for Catholics? Have they liberalized as much as Catholics have? It’s hard for me to tell because protestantism is so broad. But I would like to know specifically since the 1960’s

Speaking only for my own communion I would say yes, with an asterisk.

And the asterisk is this: yes, there has been a liberalizing across Christianity in general, but this has, necessarily, led to a firmer adherence to orthodox teaching by ‘conservatives.’ I alluded to this in an earlier post.

We Missouri Synod Lutherans suffered the terrible Seminex schism in the 1970’s, which resulted in the jettisoning of the liberal factions and a return to Confessional Lutheran teachings. The left left and went lefter, while the remainder refocused on orthodox beliefs and practices. A pruning, if you will. A brief history can be found about 3/4 of the way down the page, starting at “Between Separatism and Accomadationism”: touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=11-03-014-f

Yes, the last 40-50 years were tough, but the future has never been so bright - at least for my communion.

 

[bill99]

I’ve just seen your posts; welcome to the forums.

thanks nice to be here

 

[bill99]

I’ve just seen your posts; welcome to the forums.

thanks

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Speaking only for my own communion I would say yes, with an asterisk.

And the asterisk is this: yes, there has been a liberalizing across Christianity in general, but this has, necessarily, led to a firmer adherence to orthodox teaching by ‘conservatives.’ I alluded to this in an earlier post.

We Missouri Synod Lutherans suffered the terrible Seminex schism in the 1970’s, which resulted in the jettisoning of the liberal factions and a return to Confessional Lutheran teachings. The left left and went lefter, while the remainder refocused on orthodox beliefs and practices. A pruning, if you will. A brief history can be found about 3/4 of the way down the page, starting at “Between Separatism and Accomadationism”: touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=11-03-014-f

Yes, the last 40-50 years were tough, but the future has never been so bright - at least for my communion.

Having been a seminarian at Concordia Seminary-St Louis during those days, I have first-hand knowledge/ opinion. Just like you have an opinion. Among those who left the LCMS were many ‘catholics’ who helped the ELCA restore episcopacy/ apostolic succession and full communion with Episcopalians. These north American Lutherans are part of the much larger Lutheran presence in the world. The LCMS is isolated and unwilling to even participate with fellow Lutherans and Roman Catholics in ecumenical work.

 

[manualman]

As noted by others, there are VERY few things you can say that apply across the protestant world. Instead, I’d like to try to identify Western cultural trends and the effects they are likely to have on Christianity. The biggest trend I think I can see is one in which feelings and experience are valued higher than reason, doctrine and authority. This trend is going to have a hard effect on ALL religions that claim to be divinely revealed, not just Protestantism. Nobody, Americans especially, likes to be told what they can and cannot do. That trend is, unfortunately, accelerating, I think.

But because Protestantism is, by nature, less organized than Catholicism, I suspect that protestants in the larger culture will continue to migrate to congregations that focus on experience and feelings rather than doctrine and moral teaching. No offense to you confessional Lutherans, but this is going to be tough for you guys. Pastors who resist the “touchy feely” gospel are going to be less and less likely to keep their jobs as congregations shrink and or push for changes. Mega-churches willing to tell people what they want to hear (cheap Grace and prosperity) will continue to grow.

I suspect that, over time, we’ll see compromises from “feel good” congregations on tough moral issues of the day: abortion, euthanasia, sexual license, divorce, etc…

It’s not a terribly brave prediction: more of the same.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Having been a seminarian at Concordia Seminary-St Louis during those days, I have first-hand knowledge/ opinion. Just like you have an opinion. Among those who left the LCMS were many ‘catholics’ who helped the ELCA restore episcopacy/ apostolic succession and full communion with Episcopalians. These north American Lutherans are part of the much larger Lutheran presence in the world. The LCMS is isolated and unwilling to even participate with fellow Lutherans and Roman Catholics in ecumenical work.

They (LCMS) like us (Catholics) are not willing to compromise Truth in lieu of “unity”.

Unity without Truth = Hypocrisy.

In that regard, you must stand for the non-negotiable.

 

[steido01]

No offense to you confessional Lutherans, but this is going to be tough for you guys. Pastors who resist the “touchy feely” gospel are going to be less and less likely to keep their jobs as congregations shrink and or push for changes. Mega-churches willing to tell people what they want to hear (cheap Grace and prosperity) will continue to grow.

I suspect that, over time, we’ll see compromises from “feel good” congregations on tough moral issues of the day: abortion, euthanasia, sexual license, divorce, etc…

It’s not a terribly brave prediction: more of the same.

:sad_yes: Agreed. While the LCMS’ firm adherence to the Lutheran Confessions keep strangenesses like the “prosperity gospel” far from LCMS pulpits, we, like every communion, have our own internal issues with subversive doctrine. Every church body has its own versions of the “CCCR.”

We are living in difficult times for orthodox Christianity, in general. But this may be a blessing for His church. Traditional Christianity is, necessarily, being drawn closer together as the mainstream moves to the left. I think the firm stand against the HHS mandate is a harbinger of things to come - as Jose alluded to - a new, real, lasting ecumenism that is not based on ambiguous “agreements,” but on mutual practice and a growing understanding.

 

[tdgesq]

The Pew Research Forum’s religious research study from 2008 contains some pretty sobering statistics for Christians (Protestant and Catholic) in the United States.

The survey finds that the number of people who say they are unaffiliated with any particular faith today (16.1%) is more than double the number who say they were not affiliated with any particular religion as children. Among Americans ages 18-29, one-in-four say they are not currently affiliated with any particular religion.

The Landscape Survey confirms that the United States is on the verge of becoming a minority Protestant country; the number of Americans who report that they are members of Protestant denominations now stands at barely 51%. Moreover, the Protestant population is characterized by significant internal diversity and fragmentation, encompassing hundreds of different denominations loosely grouped around three fairly distinct religious traditions - evangelical Protestant churches (26.3% of the overall adult population), mainline Protestant churches (18.1%) and historically black Protestant churches (6.9%).

Now the bad news for Catholics:

While those Americans who are unaffiliated with any particular religion have seen the greatest growth in numbers as a result of changes in affiliation, Catholicism has experienced the greatest net losses as a result of affiliation changes. While nearly one-in-three Americans (31%) were raised in the Catholic faith, today fewer than one-in-four (24%) describe themselves as Catholic.

PewResearch

The “unaffiliated” with any particular religion category was the fastest growing demographic in the United States, particularly among young Americans. This should be a concern for all Christians.

 

[Aramis]

The Pew Research Forum’s religious research study from 2008 contains some pretty sobering statistics for Christians (Protestant and Catholic) in the United States.

The survey finds that the number of people who say they are unaffiliated with any particular faith today (16.1%) is more than double the number who say they were not affiliated with any particular religion as children. Among Americans ages 18-29, one-in-four say they are not currently affiliated with any particular religion.

The Landscape Survey confirms that the United States is on the verge of becoming a minority Protestant country; the number of Americans who report that they are members of Protestant denominations now stands at barely 51%. Moreover, the Protestant population is characterized by significant internal diversity and fragmentation, encompassing hundreds of different denominations loosely grouped around three fairly distinct religious traditions - evangelical Protestant churches (26.3% of the overall adult population), mainline Protestant churches (18.1%) and historically black Protestant churches (6.9%).

Now the bad news for Catholics:

While those Americans who are unaffiliated with any particular religion have seen the greatest growth in numbers as a result of changes in affiliation, Catholicism has experienced the greatest net losses as a result of affiliation changes. While nearly one-in-three Americans (31%) were raised in the Catholic faith, today fewer than one-in-four (24%) describe themselves as Catholic.

PewResearch

The “unaffiliated” with any particular religion category was the fastest growing demographic in the United States, particularly among young Americans. This should be a concern for all Christians.

Really, there are a number of contributing factors. Taking the 1965 30% rate… (cite)
And accepting that Catholics have tended to have more children than non-Catholics per Catholic couple, and that Catholics have traditionally been a higher percentage of the Army since the end of the Civil War era (noted by the Chaplain Corps’s own histories), thus a higher percentage of Catholic men are killed off in wars than protestants, it’s a wonder that it’s still about 24%!

2013 US population per the Census Bureau: 316M
2013 CARA Catholic Census: 66.8M
2013 Survey based respondents: 78.2M
that’s 20.8% registered, 24% self-identifying.

Either there are a lot of Catholics not registered in parishes (quite a lot, actually - more than 1 in 5 families registering kindies for CCD in 2006 at one roman parish were not registered in any parish until starting religious ed… the others were mostly younger siblings.

And, even for Catholics, the number of Children per family has dropped.

In terms of absolute numbers, the CARA data shows continuous growth, and noting that Catholic immigration isn’t the notable swell it was even into the 1950’s…

 

[MaryT777]

Having been a seminarian at Concordia Seminary-St Louis during those days, I have first-hand knowledge/ opinion. Just like you have an opinion. Among those who left the LCMS were many ‘catholics’ who helped the ELCA restore episcopacy/ apostolic succession and full communion with Episcopalians. These north American Lutherans are part of the much larger Lutheran presence in the world. The LCMS is isolated and unwilling to even participate with fellow Lutherans and Roman Catholics in ecumenical work.

The LMCS had issues with the JDDJ as well. I had never heard of the LCMS until I met a Pastor in a nursing home who was preaching there for the elderly. My only experience had been the ELCA.
They do seem pretty isolated in my opinion and the 911 Benke dispute just shows how difficult these issues remain in the LCMS for reaching out towards other Christians.
Mary.

 

[bben15]

A lot of Protestant churches will probably just dissolve. But, they won’t become Catholic. They will most likely just become atheists, due to today’s secular society.

Also, with all due respect, you said you were “trying to get your Mom to become Catholic.” Please do not proselytize your mother. If she does not want to convert, do not bother her.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The LMCS had issues with the JDDJ as well. I had never heard of the LCMS until I met a Pastor in a nursing home who was preaching there for the elderly. My only experience had been the ELCA.
They do seem pretty isolated in my opinion and the 911 Benke dispute just shows how difficult these issues remain in the LCMS for reaching out towards other Christians.
Mary.

We love our LCMS brothers/ sisters on CAF but I feel sad that they are in a church body that is so narrow to actually post a notice in parish bulletins that only Missouri Synod Lutherans can participate in the Eucharist unless speaking to the pastor beforehand.

 

[MaryT777]

We love our LCMS brothers/ sisters on CAF but I feel sad that they are in a church body that is so narrow to actually post a notice in parish bulletins that only Missouri Synod Lutherans can participate in the Eucharist unless speaking to the pastor beforehand.

That I CAN understand being Catholic of course. It seems in their minds you are not true confessional Lutherans.

I would seem to me unity between the Lutherans would be foremost on their minds. Do they
dialogue with the ELCA Church to come towards a better working definition of Lutheranism as how it is lived? The LCMS posters here state the doctrine is the same but it does not seem to be “same enough” for unity between the Lutherans so it’s somewhat difficult to understand what the real issue is precluding unity between the two bodies of Lutheranism.
It would appear the LCMS is adamant Women ordination is against the confessions.
Mary.

 

[JonNC]

=MaryT777;11178150]That I CAN understand being Catholic of course. It seems in their minds you are not true confessional Lutherans.

Not necessarily. The issue is more about doctrinal unity than individuals. Further, EC kind of overstates the point. The first time I attended my current parish, I was still ELCA. After a brief chat, our pastor welcomed us to the table. We are not closed communion, but close communion.

I would seem to me unity between the Lutherans would be foremost on their minds. Do they dialogue with the ELCA Church to come towards a better working definition of Lutheranism as how it is lived?

As much as possible, but it hasn’t stopped their leadership from drifting further away from the confessions and scripture. They ordain women. They ordain openly practicing gays. The have Eucharistic hospitality with communions that do not believe in the real presence, in direct violation of the confessions.
I love them dearly. I have family members who are ELCA. I was raised LCA/ELCA by a pastor. In 90 to 95% of things, we agree. It is the 5 - 10% that is vexing.

The LCMS posters here state the doctrine is the same but it does not seem to be “same enough” for unity between the Lutherans so it’s somewhat difficult to understand what the real issue is precluding unity between the two bodies of Lutheranism.

Hope I cleared that up.

It would appear the LCMS is adamant Women ordination is against the confessions.

It is, and we are.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

That I CAN understand being Catholic of course. It seems in their minds you are not true confessional Lutherans.

I would seem to me unity between the Lutherans would be foremost on their minds. Do they
dialogue with the ELCA Church to come towards a better working definition of Lutheranism as how it is lived? The LCMS posters here state the doctrine is the same but it does not seem to be “same enough” for unity between the Lutherans so it’s somewhat difficult to understand what the real issue is precluding unity between the two bodies of Lutheranism.
It would appear the LCMS is adamant Women ordination is against the confessions.
Mary.

There are many on CAF who can explain the LCMS, especially since I left the Missouri Synod over the dispute at Concordia Seminary, that at the time, was the largest seminary in the US besides Roman Catholic seminaries. Several district presidents [bishops in LCMS] were removed and 100,000 Lutherans left the Missouri Synod over the issue of Scripture and Holy Gospel.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Not necessarily. The issue is more about doctrinal unity than individuals. Further, EC kind of overstates the point. The first time I attended my current parish, I was still ELCA. After a brief chat, our pastor welcomed us to the table. We are not closed communion, but close communion.

As much as possible, but it hasn’t stopped their leadership from drifting further away from the confessions and scripture. They ordain women. They ordain openly practicing gays. The have Eucharistic hospitality with communions that do not believe in the real presence, in direct violation of the confessions.
I love them dearly. I have family members who are ELCA. I was raised LCA/ELCA by a pastor. In 90 to 95% of things, we agree. It is the 5 - 10% that is vexing.

Hope I cleared that up.

It is, and we are.

Jon

Jon

The difference between LCMS and the ELCA is that Missouri Synod refuses to broaden the fellowship of Christians whereas most Lutherans understand that the Church is governed by human beings who, sometimes, make mistakes, as history so clearly shows us.

Martin Luther, 3 days before his death, preached at St. Andreas Church in Eisleben the most antisemitic homily to be absolutely frightening. Yet on Luthers deathbed: “His companions, Justus Jonas and Michael Coelius, shouted loudly, “Reverend father, are you ready to die trusting in your Lord Jesus Christ and to confess the doctrine which you have taught in his name?” A distinct “Yes” was Luther’s reply.” alte-canzley.com/en/history/martin_luther_grave.html

Lutherans profess the Gospel, bringing the Good News of Christ. All Lutherans need to unite as we move to Rome.

 

[JonNC]

=EvangelCatholic;11178247]Jon

The difference between LCMS and the ELCA is that Missouri Synod refuses to broaden the fellowship of Christians whereas most Lutherans understand that the Church is governed by human beings who, sometimes, make mistakes, as history so clearly shows us.

Simply not true. By practicing close communion, no one is restricting the fellowship of Christians. Anyone can come and worship with us. Missouri Synod Lutherans can go worship anywhere. But to receive the sacrament in our communion, kneeling next to our members, we simply ask doctrinal agreement. It is consistent with the historic practice of the Church, including Lutheranism.

Martin Luther, 3 days before his death, preached at St. Andreas Church in Eisleben the most antisemitic homily to be absolutely frightening. Yet on Luthers deathbed: “His companions, Justus Jonas and Michael Coelius, shouted loudly, “Reverend father, are you ready to die trusting in your Lord Jesus Christ and to confess the doctrine which you have taught in his name?” A distinct “Yes” was Luther’s reply.” alte-canzley.com/en/history/martin_luther_grave.html

Not sure I understand the point. That we are all sinners in need of a savior? Sure, we agree.

Lutherans profess the Gospel, bringing the Good News of Christ. All Lutherans need to unite as we move to Rome.

Agreed. Return to the historic Lutheran teachings regarding clergy, morality, and Eucharistic hospitality. Regarding these issues, we are better positioned to dialogue with Rome.

Jon

 

[57Bill]

As noted by others, there are VERY few things you can say that apply across the protestant world. Instead, I’d like to try to identify Western cultural trends and the effects they are likely to have on Christianity. The biggest trend I think I can see is one in which feelings and experience are valued higher than reason, doctrine and authority. This trend is going to have a hard effect on ALL religions that claim to be divinely revealed, not just Protestantism. Nobody, Americans especially, likes to be told what they can and cannot do. That trend is, unfortunately, accelerating, I think.

But because Protestantism is, by nature, less organized than Catholicism, I suspect that protestants in the larger culture will continue to migrate to congregations that focus on experience and feelings rather than doctrine and moral teaching. No offense to you confessional Lutherans, but this is going to be tough for you guys. Pastors who resist the “touchy feely” gospel are going to be less and less likely to keep their jobs as congregations shrink and or push for changes. Mega-churches willing to tell people what they want to hear (cheap Grace and prosperity) will continue to grow.

I suspect that, over time, we’ll see compromises from “feel good” congregations on tough moral issues of the day: abortion, euthanasia, sexual license, divorce, etc…

It’s not a terribly brave prediction: more of the same.

What I have seen is something similar, however the churches that have doctrine with obedience to God’s laws and not falling into the trap of moral relativism are the ones that are thriving. The ‘loosy-goosy’ one’s that change or alter themselves and follow the whims of society are the the dying ones. Just my own observation in my own little world.

As far as non-denominational mega-churches. They will be around as long as there are charismatic leaders who have this type of vision. However in these churches, schism is inevitable because there is no doctrine other than the vision of their ‘leader’. It’s impossible IMHO to have any kind of sustained “succession” in a non-denominational setting. So my SWAG is for example Willow Creek and Saddleback won’t be around but most likely ‘replaced’ with others…(IMHO) hopefully not.

I don’t agree with the RCC on everything, but I do feel the RCC will be much stronger/better because of currently addressing probably the biggest problem the RCC has had (IMHO) of better catechizing their flock which will lead to a stronger church and better for all mankind.