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dronald
Guest
That Hitler or the Nazi party attacked Protestants based on them being so weak…
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KP3243
Guest
I never said anyone was weak?
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robwar
Guest
I am going to get it now to read it. While it may be an over simplification, I think there is a connection. Hitcock’s book about Secular Humanism traces the rize in atheism etc to the reformation and the splittering of the Christian faith.I think though that a majority of Protestants don’t really know anything about Luther’s violent writings concerning the Jews. the first I learned of it was when I attended Jews for Jesus lecture and the person spoke about barriers for Jews and one of them was Luther. He then went on to say the Hilter took his six step plan from Luther himself. Honestly, there was a gasp in the audience and ther was such a silent reaction that one could hear a pin drop. This meant that almost all present didn’t know this. The speaker realizing he just shocked everyone then tried to excuse some of it as Luther was getting old and this speaker felt Luther took his anger against the Catholic church out on the Jews. I think Luther was a deeply troubled person. Growing up as a Methodist, we always looked up to and admired Luther. But in reality, most Protestants do not look closely at some of the violent writings Luther wrote concerning a number of things. He had a blunt and earthy style that made him popular but he also had a violent side which is usually ignored or glossed over by a majority of Protestants.
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KP3243
Guest
Absolutely everyone could, but being upset that Catholics get blamed more than Protestants and then pointing to Protestants only hurts Christianity in general. How stupid must I look if I blame Catholics for Nazism and then an Atheist says, “See, even Churches that believe in the NT supported Hitler.” It’s an ignorant thing to do from both sides, I believe that Protestants should defend Catholics and Catholics should defend Protestants against lies about either Church.
I don’t think Protestants will ever really defend Catholics, and isn’t that the point? I have sat in a Protestant funeral where they flat out said the departed had grown up Catholic but then she joined their church found Jesus and was saved! How am I ever supposed to believe a Protestant will defend the Catholic Church if they are saying we don’t even know Jesus?
I don’t think Protestants will ever really defend Catholics, and isn’t that the point? I have sat in a Protestant funeral where they flat out said the departed had grown up Catholic but then she joined their church found Jesus and was saved! How am I ever supposed to believe a Protestant will defend the Catholic Church if they are saying we don’t even know Jesus?
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dronald
Guest
Your premise is that the Protestant Church of Germany weakened Christianity and Hitler took advantage of it. This is a theory and there is nothing positive that comes from believing it, however if you are going to make this claim I would like something from the Nazi party themselves proving this.
Protestants are very different from Catholics in this regard. When Protestants think of horrible things Luther, Calvin, etc said they don’t say it can represent all of Christianity. If the Pope says something it always (sometimes?) represents all of Catholicism.
By being the most humble, loving, God fearing, Christ loving, Catholic ever and putting them in their place with knowledge and love.
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KP3243
Guest
The rise of Hitler had little to do with religion it had to do with horrible economics and being blamed for World War I. The Nazis were just a tad smarter than previous European dictators and realized fighting Christians backed fired every time it was tried they knew Christians would resist a ban on their faith and they would be willing to die for it so they just let them continue and only silence them if they had to. The Nazi leadership quoted scripture to make it seem like they were just regular Christians but their ultimate goal was in fact rid Christianity overtime and replace it with the Nazi faith. Alfred Rosenberg was the architect of this movement.
There is an important lesson to take away from this because of poor catechesis people didn’t know their faith well and could be manipulated and go along with these abominations. So we do have some blame here and we need to consider that this appears to be happening again now in the US.
There is an important lesson to take away from this because of poor catechesis people didn’t know their faith well and could be manipulated and go along with these abominations. So we do have some blame here and we need to consider that this appears to be happening again now in the US.
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KP3243
Guest
Your premise is that the Protestant Church of Germany weakened Christianity and Hitler took advantage of it. This is a theory and there is nothing positive that comes from believing it, however if you are going to make this claim I would like something from the Nazi party themselves proving this.
I am speaking about the whole Reformation in general. The Catholic Church claims to have the truth and are the custodians of the Christian faith, once it was accepted by people that the Church was not speaking the Truth and you did not need legitimate authority just your conscience then anything can become truth now.
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LiberalPrincess
Guest
I don’t think it’s fair to lump together an entire religion based on one example. People do this to Catholics all the time and it really annoys me.
It’s sad but Anti-Jewish sentiment was widespread in Europe during this period, not just in Germany. Everyone should share the blame in this regard.
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utunumsint
Guest
Absolutely. As I said before, I am not trying to blame other Christians.
But, what happened in Germany happened in a primarily Christian culture. That should make us all take a good long look at ourselves and make everyone a little uneasy. I will most certainly defend protestants against baseless accusations. I am glad you dismiss the stupid attacks on Catholicism regarding this subject as well. But there is that element of truth that we need to face head on, or be doomed to repeat what happened. But because Protestantism is so fragmented, I feel that it is hard for individual churches to see what happened in Germany as being part of their history. Contrarini, for example, is proving me wrong on this score. At least when it comes to educated Christians.
My point is not to attack you or any other Protestant brother and sister.
God bless,
Ut
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Sadly enough there are extremists who would at least profess loyalty to luther’s views and opinions on jews and what do to with them today.
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utunumsint
Guest
I transcribed this last part of the section on the churches:
God bless,
Ut
Maybe this is closer to the truth. Hitler had won his political victories in the Riechstag and had turned his attention to the Nazification of Germany in the 30s. People were too enthralled with his “successes” to care about a few thousand pastors and priests, and what was essentially the loss of Christianity as they had known it. Honestly, it reminds me of the prevailing culture today, where Church goers are few.
God bless,
Ut
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utunumsint
Guest
Perhaps I need to reboot the OP at this point with the question: How could the two churches have prevented the rise of Hitler? How could they have better worked together? Hind sight is 20/20, but that does not mean we can’t try to learn from the past.
God bless,
Ut
God bless,
Ut
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Cat
Guest
If you read the book Ivanhoe, set in the 12th Century, you will see that antisemitism was rampant in Europe long before the birth of the Protestant movement. Antisemitism is a disease, a curse, and all of us must be cautious that it does not infect us.
Nazism’s religious origins were only slightly “Protestant” or “Catholic.” The religion that inspired and fueled Nazism was the occult pagan ancient religion of the ancient Germans, practiced by them before they were Christianized, and still revered by many of the “modern” Germans of the early 20th Century.
If he has not yet done so, the OP will eventually discover a very fascinating discussion in Shirer’s great book about German Paganism. According to Shirer, one of the mistakes that the rest of the world made was to assume that 20th Century Germans were civilized. Shirer states that they were NOT civilized at all, and hence their willingness to embrace Nazism and its pageantry and promise of world dominance and the establishment of a “Master Race” of Aryans.
Many Germans were (and still are) stirred in their hearts over the ancient German mythology and hierarchy of Norse Gods and Valhalla. One of the best ways to learn about Hitler and his motives is to watch the Wagnerian operas, especially the Ring Cycle. Simply stated, Hitler believed these operas were true, and felt that he was divinely appointed to restore the proper German religion and Germany’s dominant place in the universe.
It is not true that eugenics was imported to Europe from the United States (America). This false science has ancient occult roots, and these occult teachings became immensely popular throughout Europe during the 19th Century well into the 20th Century.
People like Margaret Sanger helped to promote eugenics as a “science.”
In the early 20th Century, occultism was popular through Germany, with many regular folks getting involved with what we would call today “New Age” movements. Many people followed a spiritual teacher named Madame Helena Blavatsky, who is credited with promoting “theosophy,” a cult.
One of the teachings of Madame Blavatsky was about “root races,” a description of the origins of the world that had its origin in ancient occult teachings which she learned during her pilgrimage to Tibet. Hitler and many others in Germany believed that the Aryan race (one of the “root races”) was the German race.
I apologize for this rather disjointed post. I think that those who are interested in religion and Nazism need to read a wide variety of books and writings. William Shirer’s book is certainly monumental and a great introduction. But much study is needed to arrive at a balanced conclusion.
I believe such study is necessary to prevent the same kind of mass “leading astray” of a people that occurred in the early 20th Century in the German-speaking countries. IMO, this could easily happen again. The influence of Christianity in Germany today is sadly, very tiny. Same here in the United States. People who worship false gods are easily led astray by monsters.
Nazism’s religious origins were only slightly “Protestant” or “Catholic.” The religion that inspired and fueled Nazism was the occult pagan ancient religion of the ancient Germans, practiced by them before they were Christianized, and still revered by many of the “modern” Germans of the early 20th Century.
If he has not yet done so, the OP will eventually discover a very fascinating discussion in Shirer’s great book about German Paganism. According to Shirer, one of the mistakes that the rest of the world made was to assume that 20th Century Germans were civilized. Shirer states that they were NOT civilized at all, and hence their willingness to embrace Nazism and its pageantry and promise of world dominance and the establishment of a “Master Race” of Aryans.
Many Germans were (and still are) stirred in their hearts over the ancient German mythology and hierarchy of Norse Gods and Valhalla. One of the best ways to learn about Hitler and his motives is to watch the Wagnerian operas, especially the Ring Cycle. Simply stated, Hitler believed these operas were true, and felt that he was divinely appointed to restore the proper German religion and Germany’s dominant place in the universe.
It is not true that eugenics was imported to Europe from the United States (America). This false science has ancient occult roots, and these occult teachings became immensely popular throughout Europe during the 19th Century well into the 20th Century.
People like Margaret Sanger helped to promote eugenics as a “science.”
In the early 20th Century, occultism was popular through Germany, with many regular folks getting involved with what we would call today “New Age” movements. Many people followed a spiritual teacher named Madame Helena Blavatsky, who is credited with promoting “theosophy,” a cult.
One of the teachings of Madame Blavatsky was about “root races,” a description of the origins of the world that had its origin in ancient occult teachings which she learned during her pilgrimage to Tibet. Hitler and many others in Germany believed that the Aryan race (one of the “root races”) was the German race.
I apologize for this rather disjointed post. I think that those who are interested in religion and Nazism need to read a wide variety of books and writings. William Shirer’s book is certainly monumental and a great introduction. But much study is needed to arrive at a balanced conclusion.
I believe such study is necessary to prevent the same kind of mass “leading astray” of a people that occurred in the early 20th Century in the German-speaking countries. IMO, this could easily happen again. The influence of Christianity in Germany today is sadly, very tiny. Same here in the United States. People who worship false gods are easily led astray by monsters.
Agreed!
Anecdotal, at best, presenting a broad brush generalization that doesn’t fit all communions. But to the point. start at about 3:00 into the video.
youtube.com/watch?v=527spTZiwBU
Jon
I’m not certain they could have. As has been pointed out, the German economy was an absolute wreck after WW I as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. It seems to me our investigation into what could or could not have been done to prevent the rise of Hitler will have more fruitful results looking there, as opposed to Christian institutions, Catholic and protestant.
Jon
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Petaro
Guest
I found an interesting subset on the debate between secular and religious influence over society in one of the posts which juxtaposed Nazism’s depreciation of religion to a personal choice having no place in secular government with America today. I found it a fascinating truth which will eventually emasculate and sideline Christianity in American society unless there is some organised action against it and its “constitutional” lawyers. Australia is one of the most secularised countries in the world, but it has nothing like the anti-christian forces working overtime to destroy the church as you have in America. Wake up!
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TertiumQuid
Guest
Well, whatever one wants to consider “church” it’s certain to me that no large scale lesson was really learned from Nazi Germany, at least here in the USA. I say this because, while the majority of those folks who call themselves “Christian” abhor the the Nazi atrocities and think if they were there- they would never allow it… how many of those same people (and I include myself) are actively trying to stop the daily murder carried out under the technical term, “abortion”? I mean, this morning, I didn’t get up, go down to the local abortion clinic, and try and stop a murder. Why? because I would probably be arrested.
The lesson here (at least as I apply it to myself), is that in society the overwhelming majority of us don’t want to stick out in society and face potential hardship for ourselves and our families.
As you say, “hind sight is 20/20.” History is tricky thing. We look back and we’re so righteous and intolerant of previous recorded evils, thinking that if it were “me” or “us” we’re enlightened enough not to engage in moral atrocities and failures. I’m not so sure we are. It seems like when a wide-spread moral evil occurs, the majority follow along like sheep, with only a few brave souls standing out.
JS
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Peter_J
Guest
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JustaServant
Guest
Has anyone considered the fact that the Nazis were more influenced by Darwin than Luther?
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Just a couple of questions to ask before buying into the above-
-Did anti-Semitism exist in what would become Germany and Europe prior to Martin Luther?
-Did anti-Semitism change dramatically between the Protestant areas of Germany/Europe and the Catholic areas of Germany/Europe after Martin Luther?
If the argument is that Martin Luther’s anti-Semitism somehow influenced the rise of Nazism in Germany, then one should be able to show a dramatic difference between the Protestant and Catholic populations of Germany in regards to the Jews. One should also be able to show how this difference can be traced back to the Reformation and a gap in views between the two populaces that increases over time.
Martin Luther is guilty of a lot of things, but trying to pin the rise of Nazism (and Fascism of which Nazism is a subset) on him is silly in my opinion.
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