Protestantism Produces Anarchy, And Not Authentic Christian Unity in Our Lord

[Hisalone]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevDrNorth forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Protestants might argue that since scripture promises the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church…**God caused the reformation to deal with the sin in the church and ensure the continuance of biblical Christianity. ***That would be another perspective.

Thousands and thousands of different and often contradictory version of “biblical” christinaity it appears. Anarchy by another name is still anarchy.

There is no anarchy for those who are in Christ.

 

[FickleFreckled]

The purpose of Christianity in the form of organized religion - Catholic or Protestant - isn’t to exist as a religion for its own sake. It exists to promote and support holiness. Otherwise it has no purpose at all.

There’s holiness among Protestants as well as Catholics. The most truly holy person I’ve ever known (by very “Catholic” standards) was a Baptist. Hardly an spiritual anarchist.

Maybe the OP needs to get out more and get to know some actual devout Protestant Christians.

 

[MusicMan]

Part of the issue comes in when we have a body of believers, such as the larger “Christianity,” and are identified as such, but have such major differences over core believes.

All Christians believe that Jesus was the Son of God, crucified, died and rose again.

The subject of Salvation, though, is widely disagreed upon. Faith alone? Faith + Works? Faith leads to Works? Works lead to Faith? Works are necessary to wash away sin?

The Sacraments. Are there seven? Eight (Marriage and Holy Orders can be confected on a Latin Catholic who becomes a Deacon, and an Eastern Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican who becomes a Deacon or Priest – Anglicans can be married and be Bishops)? Are there two? Are there three? Could a Lutheran very familiar with the Confessions explain it? And what about Coffee Hour, you Lutherans, Episcopalians, Orthodox, and Eastern Catholoics? Is it the 3rd Sacrament, the 4th, or the 8th?

Which version of the Bible? Contrary to what some non-denoms will have you believe, God did NOT hand King James the King James Bible all neatly translated for him. There are a ton of translations out there. Some use Latin, some use Greek, some go back to the Aramaic. And then there’s the Amplified. I’m still trying to plug my copy into my Peavy amp.

Sacred Tradition?

The Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia… they finally figured out where they stood with each other a few years ago.

But then read the Church Fathers. Get some of the St. Vladimir’s Patristics Series books and read them. You’ll find that it’s been this way from the start. The church universal has always had an anarchy of sorts, going back to James and Paul arguing over the Gentiles. Going back to the formation of the original Patriarchies and who was calling the shots. Rome wasn’t in those days.

This is nothing new. Christian history has been replete with anarchy.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Did the Catholic Church reform in areas that it needed to reform because of the Protestant Reformation?

 

[MusicMan]

If you read Luther’s Catechisms and the Augsburg Confession, look at the 16th Century Church, and then look at the modern Church, you might very well wonder what Luther’s problem was in the first place.

Many of the things he wanted reformed have been reformed in the last 500 years.

 

[reteeks21]

The purpose of Christianity in the form of organized religion - Catholic or Protestant - isn’t to exist as a religion for its own sake. It exists to promote and support holiness. Otherwise it has no purpose at all.

There’s holiness among Protestants as well as Catholics. The most truly holy person I’ve ever known (by very “Catholic” standards) was a Baptist. Hardly an spiritual anarchist.

Maybe the OP needs to get out more and get to know some actual devout Protestant Christians.

That would take time, effort, and a willingness to put aside bias and engage in conversation without an agenda. Sadly, that is something too many can’t and WON’T do! That goes for caths and prots.

 

[elvisman]

Did the Catholic Church reform in areas that it needed to reform because of the Protestant Reformation?

**The Catholic Church didn’t REform so much as it REaffirmed it’s positions. This was the crux of the Counter-Reformation (remember the anathemas of Trent?). The reasons for the Protestant Reformation were spawned by what individuals within the Church were doing (like Johan Tetzel and others) - not by the Church itself.

There are still individuals within the Church that are unsavory characters - and there will be in the future - Jesus warned of this (Matt. 7:15). This is no different than the many unsavory characters within the thousands of Protestant denominations. They will all be dealt with by God.

 

[MusicMan]

I think if we look at the whole of Christian history, we will find that the Primacy of Rome has always been a contested issue, and it will continue to be a contested issue.

If Sts. James, Peter, and Paul were all in disagreement at the start, the Oriental Orthodox left in 451, the rest of the Orthodox left in the 12th Century, the Church of England left in the 15th Century, and the German Princes who followed Luther left in the 16th Century, perhaps there is something to this issue.

Catholicism points to one verse of Scripture, the one about Peter being the rock upon which the church will be built, to justify 2000 years of Primacy. What if we’ve gotten it wrong?

 

[elvisman]

I think if we look at the whole of Christian history, we will find that the Primacy of Rome has always been a contested issue, and it will continue to be a contested issue.

If Sts. James, Peter, and Paul were all in disagreement at the start, the Oriental Orthodox left in 451, the rest of the Orthodox left in the 12th Century, the Church of England left in the 15th Century, and the German Princes who followed Luther left in the 16th Century, perhaps there is something to this issue.

Catholicism points to one verse of Scripture, the one about Peter being the rock upon which the church will be built, to justify 2000 years of Primacy. What if we’ve gotten it wrong?

Sorry, friend, but you’re wrong. Petrine primacy has been contested because of pridefulness - not because there was no evidence for it.

Matt. 16:15-19 is NOT the only place in Scripture where Jesus sets Peter apart from the others to show his Primacy. Even if it were - Jesus didn’t give the keys to ANYBODY else.
Consider the following:

Luke 22:31-32:
"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith (singular) may not fail; and once you (singular) have turned back, you (singular) must strengthen your brothers."

John 21:15-17:
**When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” **
**He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” **
**He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep. **

 

[Departed_Light]

I’ve been following this thread from the beginning. Just for fun I thought I’d look up “anarchy” in the dictionary.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
© 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

an•ar•chy n.
pl. an•ar•chies

1. 
   *]Absence of any form of political authority.
   *]Political disorder and confusion.
   *]Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.
   
   Protestantism doesn’t fall into any of these definitions.

 

[elvisman]

I’ve been following this thread from the beginning. Just for fun I thought I’d look up “anarchy” in the dictionary.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
© 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

an•ar•chy n.

pl. an•ar•chies

1. 
   *]Absence of any form of political authority.
   *]Political disorder and confusion.
   *]Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.
   
   Protestantism doesn’t fall into any of these definitions.

1. 
   Webster’s 11th collegiate Dictionary adds the following:
   **2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order **
   Protestantism falls into this category.
   
   There are literally tens of thousands of splintered sects under the umbrella of Protestantism - each with their own “authority”. They all deny the God-given Authority of the Catholic Church (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:121-15, 20:21-23).

 

[Departed_Light]

**Webster’s **11th collegiate Dictionary adds the following:
2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
Protestantism falls into this category.

There are literally tens of thousands of splintered sects under the umbrella of Protestantism - each with their own “authority”. They all deny the God-given Authority of the Catholic Church (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:121-15, 20:21-23).

Since most Protestants take the bible as their authority, it is not an absence or denial of authority. It’s just not a final authority you personally recognize, for your own well stated reasons. But anarchy is an incorrect term to use.

 

[estesbob]

I’ve been following this thread from the beginning. Just for fun I thought I’d look up “anarchy” in the dictionary.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
© 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

an•ar•chy n.

pl. an•ar•chies

1. 
   *]Absence of any form of political authority.
   
   Who is the authority for Proestants
   
   2 Political disorder and confusion.
   
   How else would you describe thousands of diffrerent denominatuions holding different and often contradictory doctrines?
   1. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.
   Whats standard cohesive principal binds the thousands of different denominations?
   
   Protestantism doesn’t fall into any of these definitions.

1. 
   It would appear it falls into all of them

 

[estesbob]

Since most Protestants take the bible as their authority, it is not an absence or denial of authority. It’s just not a final authority you personally recognize, for your own well stated reasons. But anarchy is an incorrect term to use.

They take their own personal interpreation of scriputre as the auhtority-interpreations that are varied as those doing the interpreting. Everyone is their own authority-texbook anarchy

 

[allischalmers]

We must look at who God is. Jesus is the King, who is ruler of a Kingdom. The King has authority over His Kingdom, and has established a hierarchical structure with authority to rule and teach to the group of subjects in His Earthly Kingdom. The King didn’t have to, but did establish a Prime Minister (foreshadowed in the OT) in His earthly Kingdom, and desires that all His people be one in His teachings, each believing the same teachings as the truth. This is an ordered Kingdom. The Kingdom has a Queen, for whom a place had been reserved and protected. The King has rules and proclamations and ways to bestow grace and bind His people to Him. We must know without error what these proclamations teach. We must know as much as we can about the authentic truth of our Lord, Jesus the King of Heaven and Earth.

Jesus established an authority on earth before ascending to His throne in Heaven, and this was recorded in the NT Scriptures written years afterward. This authority was bestowed first on His Apostles, of which he also established one as Head Apostle, a Prime Minister to whom he alone was given the keys of authority for God’s earthly Kingdom, which would be ruled as it is ruled in Heaven. Jesus said that the Authority (Magisterium) would be guided to all truth. Jesus also said this Church He built would never be prevailed over by the gates of Hell. His Bride, the Church was created as He hung on the holy cross, and then with the Holy Spirit began to carry out its worldwide mission beginning on Pentecost Sunday, where Peter’s preaching brought 3,000 into the Church, Jesus’ earthly Kingdom that day. The Church Baptized, confirmed, performed marriages, forgave the sins of men, performed remembrance of Jesus’ Body and Blood in what appears to be bread and wine, anointed the sick, and ordained other Bishops and helpers to continue this mission as the Church spread to fulfill the great commission given by Christ.

Approximately 1,500 years after God’s Church was created, the foundations of Protestantism were laid which include rejection of the idea of pope, rejection of the sacramental priesthood in general, rejection of five of the seven Sacraments, acceptance of Bible alone as complete and sufficient rule of faith, belief in Salvation by one’s faith alone, etc. Applying these foundational principles leads to each man and his Bible being considered as a completely sufficient faith system. No actual outside authority is present to guide the believer to all truth, settle doctrinal questions and differences, and make sure what they’re believing is accurate as Christ intended. Protestants disagree with each other at every turn of the page of the Bible, and who is there to reconcile them into God’s truth… no one is. Beliefs taught within Protestant faiths can vary not just by local custom, but in serious matters of doctrine, so as to deny each other and be irreconcilable. These fractured groups teach different and conflicting things about our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ, based on their own personal interpretations of the Bible. With Protestantism, there is a fragmentation of the body of believers which continues like a ripple in a pond. This is the basis for anarchy and not a basis for unity.

So in the Protestant ecclesial communities, we see no authentic link to the Apostolic authority established by Christ, and so these have no final authority on matters, and do not resemble a kingdom, but rather are unassociated adhocracies where individuals and groups compete with each other, each teaching some truth but some falsehood about the King Jesus. These individuals all reading the King’s proclamations for themselves and deciding what they want to believe about them leads to moral relativity of each having their own “truth,” and there is chaos among believers. Since they reject the office of Prime Minister of King Jesus, they have no office of final authority in matters regarding the King. A terrible casualty in this is a weak relationship with our Lord, and lack of authentic truth about Him. This can’t be underestimated. There is also a weak or nonexistent relationship with the mother Jesus gave to the Disciple He loves (which includes all of His faithful), His mother the Queen Mother at His right hand in Heaven. This is not done by disobedience to the model of Protestantism, but by deliberate adherence to the model of Protestantism. We say rightly that Protestantism is the pillar and foundation of anarchy. Protestantism is a method by which men create and adhere to their own doctrines, as long as they can claim that it is related somehow to their interpretations of the Bible. They have no assurance of being correct, and therefore have no assurance of actually following God. Why? It’s simply because these separated and separate ecclesial communities were started primarily on men’s pride, and not by God. God would never and in fact did not give us a Church that cannot provide assurance of His truths, and cannot provide unity as He asked. Individually, Protestants will vehemently disagree with me, but collectively they clearly and overwhelmingly illustrate this point about Protestantism’s anarchy and lack of unity in teachings, which are in grave opposition to that which Christ asked of us.

One needs only to look honestly and truthfully at the Catholic Church, which built by Christ, has faithfully been His Earthly Kingdom for almost 2,000 years now, ruled by the King and protected by the Holy Spirit. The order and unity of God’s Kingdom is found in His one Catholic Church, which teaches consistent truth about Christ, ministers the Covenant made by Christ, and serves the earthly Kingdom so we can be united with the King in His Heavenly Kingdom. The Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church is in the model of the Kingdom that Christ established and is able to provide truth and unity for the people who seek the God.

Has anyone ever noticed that all the threads stated by MDK are solely for the propose of attacking protestants
This proves to me that he is insecure in his faith and spiritually immuture.

 

[MusicMan]

Unfortunately, many of you are so convinced that the Pope must be the authority over all, that you neglect to understand that other could recognize a different authority. Furthermore, “Protestant” is not the name of a denomination, it is the quantifier for a group of denominations that are Christian but have left the Roman Authority over the years because they were protesting something.

For the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the parish has its councilar hierarchy and a pastor. That is a political authority. Each area is divided into Synods, not unlike Diocese or Eparchies. The Synods are headed by a council and a Bishop. Again, a political authority. The larger ELCA is headed by a General Convention and a Presiding Bishop. Again, a political authority.

Just like the Methodists aren’t subject to the political authority of the Catholic Church, neither are they subject to the political hierarchy of the ELCA. They have their own.

The Episcopal Church has a similar political hierarchy, and then they fit into the larger Anglican Communion, of which the Archbishop of Canterbury is the political head. The Queen of England is the head of the Church of England.

Protestanism doesn’t produce anarchy, but perhaps non-denominational Christianity does. Don’t mistake them for the same thing, they are different.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Catholic Church didn’t REform so much as it REaffirmed it’s positions. This was the crux of the Counter-Reformation *(remember the anathemas *of Trent?). The reasons for the Protestant Reformation were spawned by what individuals within the Church were doing (like Johan Tetzel and others) - not by the Church itself.

There are still individuals within the Church that are unsavory characters - and there will be in the future - Jesus warned of this (Matt. 7:15). This is no different than the many unsavory characters within the thousands of Protestant denominations. They will all be dealt with by God.

Do you think several of the Popes were unsavory characters?

 

[elvisman]

Since most Protestants take the bible as their authority, it is not an absence or denial of authority. It’s just not a final authority you personally recognize, for your own well stated reasons. But anarchy is an incorrect term to use.

Anarchy IS a perfect word for this confusion.

Most Protestants will say that the Bible is their sole authority, but it’s the hierarchy of their denominations that call the shots - based on their particular interpretation of Scripture.
Hardly the unity Jesus so fervently prayed for in John 17.

No, anarchy IS more like it . . .

 

[elvisman]

Do you think several of the Popes were unsavory characters?

Yes, some of them were unsavory. Why?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, some of them were unsavory. Why?

If that’s true, Jesus said will will know them by their fruits. I’m not sure how Catholics reconcile unsavory vicars with the doctrine of apostolic succession. Please tell me what the word “vicar” means?