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MrS
Guest
Well, the Church does see a need to assign the label… so that all may have a confidence not of themselves that those books are inspired, are useful, and are inerrant if correctly interpreted.
Question… do you know of any Church of Christ pastors who use both the OT and NT, in one book, as they instruct their flock? I only know a handful… and they use only the NT. So what do they do when studing Jesus or St Paul for that matter, when references are made to the OT?
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MrS
Guest
Ah, therein lies the “problem”
What is the Real Presence?
Where do we find Him?
How is the Real Presence confected? (that is, how is He transubstantiated?)
Yes I believe that Jesus is everywhere. But that is not the Real Presence. I will not go outside, fall down, and worship a tree.
Jesus is, however, truly present in the Catholic Eucharist because of the power handed down to the validly ordained.
Lutherans, for example, can say they have a Real Presence, but without valid ordination they have nothing but bread and wine. (regardless of their understanding that their real presence ceases after their service is over)
This point would underscore the difference between what God does in the Catholic Consecration, and what man does in the Luthern service. BIG diff.
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MrS
Guest
Not sure what you mean.
The words of Consecration??
The action of the Celebrant (first the High Priest Jesus Himself, and now the ministerial priests in Persona Christi)??
The shape or size of the unleavened bread?
The “potency” for want of a better word, of the wine?
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TriuneUnity
Guest
That’s all irrelevent and has to do with the concept of sacramental holy orders; What we’re discussing is “new doctrines,” and in this instance, Rome’s dogma of transubstantiation. Which it makes binding on the conscience of all Catholic adherents without any evidence from either Scripture or Apostolic witness. Scripture and the early church both teach the Real, physical, true body and blood of the Lord in the Sacrament; it doesn’t teach philosophical concepts.
M
MrS
Guest
Then where does your confidence come from if the OT is not inerrant?
The other choice would have to be your pastor… who can not trace his authority to teach back to the Apostles. HHmmmmm.
by the way… even though our priests and bishops have the “authority” to teach, I readily admit we have many “stinkers” who either teach with doubt, with ignorance, or even with malice.
Thankfully, as Scripture says, when we have a problem with our “brother”, the final authority is the Church.
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ckempston
Guest
C
ckempston
Guest
My confidence, much like yours, comes from a statement of Faith. You believe the Catholic Church to be the “bulwark of truth” (I think I’ve got that phrase right). I believe the Bible to be the “bulwark of truth.” Therefore, anything it says, I believe, insofar as my limited human capacity can understand it.
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MrS
Guest
The ability to bind and loose was very HIGHLY respected by the people of those days for what it meant.
Perhaps the following translation helps put it in prospective"
…whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall have been (be) bound in heaven…
Catholics teach (and not all understand) that all Truth is in heaven. There is nothing but Truth in heaven. Further, Truth is not just something, but somebody, and His Name is Jesus the Christ.
Thus, when the Church on earth declares, or defines a Truth, it is NOT something new. It already exists in Heaven. The Church does not change Truth.
Additionally, this Truth is for all men, in all times, in all places. The “reality” of Truth is that it is eternal.
It is then up to the man with the free will to accept or reject, or even replace it with something taught from a man who does not have this protection of the Holy Spirit.
These graces were given by Jesus to His one Church ("… I will build MY Church" - singular). They were never abrogated.
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MrS
Guest
Well, then why does the Bible not agree with you?
1 Tim 3:15
15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth
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MrS
Guest
My confidence may be expressed in one or more statements of faith, like the Creeds of the Catholic Church.
My confidence does not come from them,.
My only confidence is in He Whom I love, and Who loves me without limits. He Who did not leave me an orphan. He Who promised to be with me till the end of time. He Who IS the Real Presence.
I used to wonder how anyone could say no to the Eucharist. But time and patience has helped me understand that God is God, and His plan that we all be ONE will happen in His way, even if the paths are different. It is the man, or woman, who must seek the Truth, whereever the Truth may lead them.
Catholics, me, know that the Truth will lead them, like Paul, to the Catholic Church, the Eucharist, the Lord Himself.
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C
ckempston
Guest
Poor word choice on my part, and this will quickly turn into a semantic argument, which is pretty useless. But, I can’t deny the truth of what you’re saying either. However, my point still stands that the Word is truth. All I was trying to say is that the Bible is true and I accept this on Faith. I laid myself a nice little word trap for you to catch me in.
John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
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MrS
Guest
Your civility and openness is most refreshing. Thank you for that.Poor word choice on my part, and this will quickly turn into a semantic argument, which is pretty useless. But, I can’t deny the truth of what you’re saying either. However, my point still stands that the Word is truth. All I was trying to say is that the Bible is true and I accept this on Faith. I laid myself a nice little word trap for you to catch me in.
John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
We agree. If all of Scripture could be reduced to just one word, that word would be Jesus. For He is the Truth.
Out of interest (because this is just something I read recently), I refere to Malachi 3:3
The Church has taught that the “silver” refined by the silversmith are meant to be the Church, and God. And by extension, the individuals in the Church.
It talks of the the “job” of the silvermith to sit and watch while the silver is refined.
If you ask a silversmith to explain further, he/she would say that the flame has to be perfect, the silver has to be placed at the hottest part of the flame, and you can’t “over or underdo the heat”
So, one might ask, when do you know that the Church, or the individual is fully refined?
God, I mean the silversmith, might then reply…
“…it is perfect when all I look at it, and only see My image.”
How true of the Church He founded. It contains the fullness of the faith and is perfect.
Those in it however, have lots of “refining to go”
But if I want to someday have only His image (eternity in Heaven without sin), I thank God for the means to get there with all the graces He can provide.
Why settle for less (a “cooler” flame)?
C
ckempston
Guest
Agreed. John 1:1
So, I guess you’re equating Protestantism, or anything non-Catholic, as the “cooler” flame…Out of interest (because this is just something I read recently), I refere to Malachi 3:3
The Church has taught that the “silver” refined by the silversmith are meant to be the Church, and God. And by extension, the individuals in the Church.
It talks of the the “job” of the silvermith to sit and watch while the silver is refined.
If you ask a silversmith to explain further, he/she would say that the flame has to be perfect, the silver has to be placed at the hottest part of the flame, and you can’t “over or underdo the heat”
So, one might ask, when do you know that the Church, or the individual is fully refined?
God, I mean the silversmith, might then reply…
“…it is perfect when all I look at it, and only see My image.”
How true of the Church He founded. It contains the fullness of the faith and is perfect.
Those in it however, have lots of “refining to go”
But if I want to someday have only His image (eternity in Heaven without sin), I thank God for the means to get there with all the graces He can provide.
Why settle for less (a “cooler” flame)?
Ok, but I still think Transubstantiation is a new and unnecessary doctrine.
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MrS
Guest
Perhaps… a cooler flame… but by less I guess I mean that one settles for less when they settle for living without the Real Presence in the Eucharist.So, I guess you’re equating Protestantism, or anything non-Catholic, as the “cooler” flame…
Ok, but I still think Transubstantiation is a new and unnecessary doctrine.
But, by admission, their trinitarian baptism makes them part of the silver.
If God chooses to use a cooler flame first, that may be the case.
I was infering (I think) to the idea that the image of God is only seen - perfectly - in that which He has refined perfectly. So far that would be only the True Church He founded, and those in Heaven.
I understand, (I think) what you say about Transubstantiation being new in your eyes. But the word (some word) is necessary if we even hope to have discussions like this.
God Bless You Always.
A
allischalmers
Guest
How can you call the truth funny?
/QUOTE]
I never called the truth funny - just your funny joke.
C
ckempston
Guest
I can see how the concept could be implied because if the Bread and Wine at some point become Jesus’ body, it has to happen in some way shape or form. But haven’t doctrines regarding even the Eucharist changed? At one time, wasn’t it “necessary” to take both the bread and wine, and now Catholics only take the bread? Doesn’t that directly contradict what Jesus said?
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
M
MrS
Guest
Catholics are taught that you cannot “separate” the Body and Blood of Christ
Hence both the Host and the Wine are confected to His whole Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
Tough to understand, I grant you… but that is the beauty of the whole mystery.
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