Protestantism Today

[andrewstx]

I’m not sure whether or not this “rates” as response to the previous comments, but thought it might be a good place to place a question. In the past couple of months I have attended 2 Protestant Churches – a Presbyterian Church for a Memorial service for a husband of a good friend – the other, a Lutheran Church for a musical program. The Lutheran church was more like a Catholic Church – an altar, Stations of the Cross, etc. BUT the one thing that was missing in both were kneelers-- I can’t help wondering when and why the Protestant Churches removed the kneelers – it was all I could do NOT to genuflect, particularly when I attended the Memorial service – anyone have an answer to this one???

There are Lutheran churches with kneelers, just as some Catholic churches have removed their kneelers.

What confuses me more about Lutheran churches is that none of them have tabernacles but everyone I have seen has a sanctuary lamp. What are they for?

 

[JonNC]

There are Lutheran churches with kneelers, just as some Catholic churches have removed their kneelers.

What confuses me more about Lutheran churches is that none of them have tabernacles but everyone I have seen has a sanctuary lamp. What are they for?

To signify Christ’s presence. But then, I’d welcome the use of an aumbry to store the reliquae, and in some places, this is beginning to happen.

Jon

 

[miztyzo562]

Why do I have to tell you anything about what anything means in Greek. Do you speak Greek?

Cattle farmers brand their animals. I believe that the cattle feel something. I believe they react. I believe that the temple that was destroyed where bulls were slaughtered in the Old Covenant is gone and that the Bulls made noise when slaughtered. They don’t do that anymore.

Do you celebrate Christmas and Easter?

I Peter 3:15-17. You attacked me for using the name Yeshua in spite of “Jesus”, so it would only be right of you to give reason why I’m wrong. Now your posing a question with a question and again concerning as to whether I speak Greek as you’ve done when you questioned my family life. For you to say there is nothing insulting concerning what was said even though I voiced other wise and take the question into another tangent, you now bring up Christmas and Easter?? To answer that, no I don’t. Whats your point?

You post a blog that attacks people who have a different belief than they do and yet say “We Love Jews”, they also interpret peoples intentions of trying to be more “Jewish” instead of realizing that people just want to walk as the Lord did. It really should be renamed storm front as opposed to storm harvest.

 

[Roy5]

Coptic Christian

** When I referred to young Catholics** - and you questioned that - I was thinking of various reports on Catholic youth and their growing alienation from the Church.

** Just today the latest issue of *America*, the magazine published by the Jesuits arrived, and it includes the review of a new book that discusses this very topic**. As I recall (the magazine is in a distance place at the moment - you may want to check it out) the book makes the point that Catholic youth are questioning their faith, asking questions, doubting doctrines, rejecting various practices, etc. - and leaving.

** I know that zealous Catholics strive to look on the bright side, and there are bright spots here and there**. I see them trumpeted regularly on EWTN. However, in Europe and North America (certainly Canada and the USA) millions have drifted from the Church, some to nothing, others to mainline and evangelical Protestant groups. If it weren’t for the millions of Latinos who have come here over the past 30 years, the Catholic population would have fallen dramatically. And even many of the Latinos are being attracted to Pentecostal-type Protestant churches.

** If the Church would only open up more**, not insist upon absolute belief in all the doctrines (like transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception) many of these same young Catholics would feel welcome to remain in the Church. It would help, too, especially among married couples, if that strong condemnation of artificial birth control were lifted. How does such birth control differ from hundreds of other advances in medicine that assist humans to live fuller and happier lives? After all, the church-approved method is aimed at precisely the same goal - to avoid pregnancy. Why is it wrong when a loving and responsible mother and father believe they can best provide, financially and in other ways, for, say, only 3-4 children? The days of farm families, when there was food nearby to feed 10-15 youngsters, are gone. Children no longer drop out of school early but need costly college educations. Nor do half of babies today die young, Nor do their parents need large families to help them during their old age if necessity, before the days of social security. Etc. 

  **I know my 'advice' means nothing to most postings,** Fine. Just wanted to sound the alarm.

 ** God bless everybody.**

 

[hn160]

So, Jim, are you saying that the only time Catholics kneel is in the presence of His body and blood? You mean you don’t kneel to pray at home? You wouldn’t find it appropriate to kneel in the confessional? (I honestly don’t know if Catholics kneel for confession or not, though I do.) Is it your belief that Christ is only present in the Eucharist?

Jim, I have on occasion posted Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger’s expressed opinion that the salvation granting presence of Christ is in a Lutheran Eucharist. Perhaps your view is different.

As a Lutheran, Barb, it is distressing to me, at times that there are not kneelers. I was raised with the idea - stand to praise, kneel to pray, sit to listen. But I have a question regarding the Lutheran parish you were in; was there a kneeling rail at the altar? Most Lutherans do kneel to receive the Eucharist.

In closing, Barb, I have indeed witnessed Catholics genuflect in our parish, recognizing Christ’s presence within our midst, their view of our sacrament nowithstanding. It is an act of piety, respect and love for our Lord, and you are welcome to genuflect in our parish anytime.

Jon

When it comes to kneelers in Lutheran churches, that varies by parish, I have been in LC-MS and ELCA churches that have kneelers. Our church doesn’t have them, but the pastor would like to install them. Every Lutheran Church that I have been to for Communion, eveyone kneeled at the altar rail except ones that had a problem. We always bow to the altar before receiving Communion. Most at our church take the common cup.

 

[pablope]

When it comes to kneelers in Lutheran churches, that varies by parish, I have been in LC-MS and ELCA churches that have kneelers. Our church doesn’t have them, but the pastor would like to install them. Every Lutheran Church that I have been to for Communion, eveyone kneeled at the altar rail except ones that had a problem. We always bow to the altar before receiving Communion. Most at our church take the common cup.

Hn…and Jon…just to clarify, and out of curiosity…when you say kneelers…do you mean kneelers at the pews? Aside from kneelers for communion?

 

[hn160]

Coptic Christian

** When I referred to young Catholics** - and you questioned that - I was thinking of various reports on Catholic youth and their growing alienation from the Church.

** Just today the latest issue of *America***, the magazine published by the Jesuits arrived, and it includes the review of a new book that discusses this very topic. As I recall (the magazine is in a distance place at the moment - you may want to check it out) the book makes the point that Catholic youth are questioning their faith, asking questions, doubting doctrines, rejecting various practices, etc. - and leaving.

** I know that zealous Catholics strive to look on the bright side, and there are bright spots here and there**. I see them trumpeted regularly on EWTN. However, in Europe and North America (certainly Canada and the USA) millions have drifted from the Church, some to nothing, others to mainline and evangelical Protestant groups. If it weren’t for the millions of Latinos who have come here over the past 30 years, the Catholic population would have fallen dramatically. And even many of the Latinos are being attracted to Pentecostal-type Protestant churches.

** If the Church would only open up more**, not insist upon absolute belief in all the doctrines (like transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception) many of these same young Catholics would feel welcome to remain in the Church. It would help, too, especially among married couples, if that strong condemnation of artificial birth control were lifted. How does such birth control differ from hundreds of other advances in medicine that assist humans to live fuller and happier lives? After all, the church-approved method is aimed at precisely the same goal - to avoid pregnancy. Why is it wrong when a loving and responsible mother and father believe they can best provide, financially and in other ways, for, say, only 3-4 children? The days of farm families, when there was food nearby to feed 10-15 youngsters, are gone. Children no longer drop out of school early but need costly college educations. Nor do half of babies today die young, Nor do their parents need large families to help them during their old age if necessity, before the days of social security. Etc. 

  **I know my 'advice' means nothing to most postings,** Fine. Just wanted to sound the alarm.

 ** God bless everybody.**

The Church is not a democracy, The Church is not of the world but in the world. Once you change doctrine, then the Churches’ theology will change and worship will change. Just look at the liberal mainline churches and the Rick Warrens and the Joel Osteens. A good book on the subject is The Fire and The Staff by Pastor Kiemel I. Preus.

 

[hn160]

Hn…and Jon…just to clarify, and out of curiosity…when you say kneelers…do you mean kneelers at the pews? Aside from kneelers for communion?

Yes.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

So, Jim, are you saying that the only time Catholics kneel is in the presence of His body and blood? You mean you don’t kneel to pray at home? You wouldn’t find it appropriate to kneel in the confessional? (I honestly don’t know if Catholics kneel for confession or not, though I do.) Is it your belief that Christ is only present in the Eucharist?

Genuflect: to bend the knee or touch one knee to the floor in reverence or worship.

Kneel: to go down or rest on the knees or a knee.

Catholics genuflect (touch one knee to the floor momentarily and immediately rise to an upright posiiton) upon entering or leaving a Catholic Church in recognition of Christ Himself, who is truly present in the Blessed Sacrament reserved in the Tabernacle. At other times, in the Church or elsewhere, they may kneel. In the confessional, Catholics may choose to kneel behind a screen and remain anonymous or sit face to face with the priest. Christ is present in His Word; and in His people; and Really, Truly, Actually, and Substantially in His Eucharist.

You ask, “You mean you don’t kneel to pray at home?” No, Jon, I don’t. Nor do I genuflect or kneel at Church. My left leg has been amputated, which makes genuflecting or kneeling impossible. Instead, I kneel before God with my heart.

Jim, I have on occasion posted Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger’s expressed opinion that the salvation granting presence of Christ is in a Lutheran Eucharist. Perhaps your view is different.

Jon, I’ve read your posts containing that quote from Pope Benedict XVI about Lutheran communion several times. I think you misunderstand the Pope. The Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist can be confected only by a priest validly ordained in Apostolic Succession. The Lutherans have no such priests and therefore have never been able to confect the Eucharist since Martin Luther’s rebellion in 1517. Luther did away with the ministerial priesthood. As I recall, Benedict XVI doesn’t use the word “Eucharist” in reference to Lutheran communion. The Eucharist can only be confected in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, where a valid priesthood in Apostolic Succession has been present since the beginning of Christianity. In fact, Lutheranism has no priests at all. A priest, by definition, offers sacrifice. However, the Catholic Church (and therefore Benedict XVI) recognizes that Christ in His mercy may be present to Protestants despite the fact that they have rejected His Church. But the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ is available only to Catholics and the Orthodox. For you or anyone to think that Benedict XVI believes that Lutheran communion is equal to or the same as the Catholic or Orthodox Eucharist is folly.

My regards to you, Jon.

Jim Dandy

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jim

=Jim Dandy;8506355]Genuflect: to bend the knee or touch one knee to the floor in reverence or worship.

Kneel: to go down or rest on the knees or a knee.

Yes, I know the difference, but I’m sure there are some here that don’t, so the definitions are helpful.

Catholics genuflect (touch one knee to the floor momentarily and immediately rise to an upright posiiton) upon entering or leaving a Catholic Church in recognition of Christ Himself, who is truly present in the Blessed Sacrament reserved in the Tabernacle. At other times, in the Church or elsewhere, they may kneel. In the confessional, Catholics may choose to kneel behind a screen and remain anonymous or sit face to face with the priest. Christ is present in His Word; and in His people; and Really, Truly, Actually, and Substantially in His Eucharist.

Agreed.

You ask, “You mean you don’t kneel to pray at home?” No, Jon, I don’t. Nor do I genuflect or kneel at Church. My left leg has been amputated, which makes genuflecting or kneeling impossible. Instead, I kneel before God with my heart.

I’m sorry, Jim. I didn’t mean to offend. Let me accept a kneeling of the heart as an inward, perhaps even more powerful sign of faith and fear of the Almighty.

Jon, I’ve read your posts containing that quote from Pope Benedict XVI about Lutheran communion several times. I think you misunderstand the Pope. The Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist can be confected only by a priest validly ordained in Apostolic Succession. The Lutherans have no such priests and therefore have never been able to confect the Eucharist since Martin Luther’s rebellion in 1517. Luther did away with the ministerial priesthood. As I recall, Benedict XVI doesn’t use the word “Eucharist” in reference to Lutheran communion. The Eucharist can only be confected in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, where a valid priesthood in Apostolic Succession has been present since the beginning of Christianity. In fact, Lutheranism has no priests at all. A priest, by definition, offers sacrifice. However, the Catholic Church (and therefore Benedict XVI) recognizes that Christ in His mercy may be present to Protestants despite the fact that they have rejected His Church. But the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ is available only to Catholics and the Orthodox. For you or anyone to think that Benedict XVI believes that Lutheran communion is equal to or the same as the Catholic or Orthodox Eucharist is folly.

No, Jim, I don’t misunderstand him. If he believed that our preisthood was valid, and therefore our sacraments, one might think the Eucharistic hospitality Rome offers to Orthodox Christians might also be offered to Lutherans. Obviously, that’s not the case.
I only brought it up in response to your post, which seems to reduce the sacrament to an all or nothing. I don’t believe, by his statement, that he believes that to be the case. And to that point, if in fact in his statement he is willing to claim “a salvation granting presence of Christ” in our Eucharist, is that presence enough for a Catholic to feel moved to genuflect?

My regards to you, Jon.

And his peace with you, Jim.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

When it comes to kneelers in Lutheran churches, that varies by parish, I have been in LC-MS and ELCA churches that have kneelers. Our church doesn’t have them, but the pastor would like to install them. Every Lutheran Church that I have been to for Communion, eveyone kneeled at the altar rail except ones that had a problem. We always bow to the altar before receiving Communion. Most at our church take the common cup.

Hi Hn,
My experience, albeit anecdotal, is that older Lutheran sanctuaries have kneelers in the pews, while newer ones tend not to. Everything else you say here is my experience too. I’d like to see the individual cups go by the wayside, myself. Anf for those who fret over the common cup, intinction seems a much more acceptable alternate regarding the reliquae.

Jon

 

[JLF2011]

I’m surprised at the level of antipathy toward Protestants. I’ve begun investigating Catholicism, but this makes me pause.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m surprised at the level of antipathy toward Protestants. I’ve begun investigating Catholicism, but this makes me pause.

Explain what you mean by antipathy. Help me understand what it is that makes you pause?

 

[domandcarols]

Roy5’s comments are a testament to relativism, which is the inevitable legacy of Protestantism. It can’t claim to be “true” in any objective sense.

Jim Dandy
Former Protestant

Thank you. I was thinking the same thing.

 

[domandcarols]

There is so much to comment on when it comes to Protestantism. I will tackle just one aspect.

** Coming from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage myself, I always have been interested in ecumenism, getting the two traditions together**, not necessarily as one church but one in spirit, advocating the same Christ and Christian faith. It has never troubled me all that much that there are differences, since I’m inclined to think that all humans ‘see through a glass darkly…’ I would suggest that none of us understand this mammoth, miraculous, magnificent and mysterious universe. With maybe a thousand or a million solar systems, how could we? I am content to go along with an old gospel hymn which begins: “Farther along we’ll know all about it, farther along we’ll understand why…”

 **Sadly - well, in my view - the form of Protestantism that is most attractive is losing ground**. That is mainline Protestantism: Methodism, Episcopalianism, the UCC, Presbyterianism, etc. I admire the freedom these groups allow to think and let think, considerable freedom to believe or not believe, yet with a strong faith in God and a desire to imitate Christ in daily life. Apparently, millions either reject religion altogether or they are attracted to evangelical groups that have plenty of charisma but are inclined to be fundamentalist, not open to varying points of view.

** I worry, too, that Catholicism may be more and more authoritative since the time of John XXIII, my favorite Pope.** John Paul II and Benedict XVI certainly are capable and devout men, but I wonder if they are throw-backs to earlier times. This is being cheered by some, but in the long haul will injure the church, certainly in Europe and North America, where reasonable religion is important to millions of the faithful. I have read the Church Fathers and find them brilliant for their era but full of assumptions based on a time when telescopes were primitive and microscopes were yet to be invented. So, they often taught the three-tier view of the universe with no knowledge of the vastness of space and such false concepts as demons or God’s punishment being the main causes of disease.

** One particular event troubled me**: when Hans Kung was no longer permitted by the Church to teach in Catholic universities. He was one of my favorite theologians. he wanted to make Catholicism broader and less restrictive when it came to matters of doctrine. He elevated respect for the individual and his/her mental ability to think, to weigh, to investigate, to ponder. I personally need the right to do this.

  **So, time will tell. If Catholicism can 'loosen up' **and if church members are permitted to have serious conversations about such matters as marriage of priests, ordaining women as deacons, allowing 'artifical' birth control, etc., it may thrive. Otherwise, I think it will continue to lose ground. The young people want to go forward, not backward. Even the little changes we will have at Mass soon strike me as a move backwards, More like the Latin, the priest here assured the faithful? When will the hierarchy wake up?

  **But God bless all people of faith**, whatever their creed, color, culture or country. May religion become a bridge rather than a barrier.

I completely disagree. People that I know of my generation want age-old tradition. We want Catholicism. I love Gregorian chant and incense, the rosary, Latin mass, kneeling to receive communion (I would never receive Him in any other way), Theology of the Body. I love Lives of the Saints, they give me hope and I strive to follow in their footsteps. God gave me free will and the right to think, investigate, ponder and weigh and it always leads me back to all the things I just mentioned. People who want what you’re describing can feel free to join a church that allows or has no opinion on those issues, no ones stopping them, but they do not represent what young Catholics desire on a whole.

 

[JLF2011]

“It is a sadness and a disgrace to Christianity,” when referring to Protestantism is probably where I began to wonder.

My son attended Catholic school as a Protestant through the end of middle school, and I didn’t encounter this attitude there. It was an incredibly inclusive place.

My daughter attended through middle school what was then the only ecumenical Sacred Heart School in the US. I can’t imagine Catholics we knew there considering Protestants non-Christians.

Perhaps I’m misreading posters on this thread. I hope so.

 

[joe370]

Hey Roy5…

1. Catholicism limits free investigation and expression…

Nah…

Sadly, Protestantism cannot limit free investigation and expression because the bible is the Christians only rule of faith, as opposed to any church leadership, with a few exceptions, and to me that spells disaster on so many levels, but if it works for you…

1. I think that non-Catholic scholars would disagree that the entire Church was united under Rome at the outset.

And they would be right. The 4th century Non-Chalcedonian churches were considered schismatics to the CC in the east because of their take on the 2 natures of Christ.

4

. It comes as no surprise that when one challenges the Church’s policy on this or that, one is called relativistic, egotistic, etc.

I hope I don’t fit either category. Yes, perhaps I am influenced by the democratic climate in the USA which can endow us with a spirit of individual freedom. I treasure that freedom. For those who accept whatever the Church teaches, fine.

Many choose to trust their own decision, judgment and interpretation as opposed to the decision, judgment and interpretation of any one church. Probably why sola scriptura is so appealing to you. I too enjoy individual freedom but also understand the church’s authoritative role as the rightful custodian and dispenser of doctrinal truth.

I was reading a study recently that one of the major reasons young people have left the Church in large numbers is because they feel that their natural curiosity is stifled and they are hesitant to automatically rubber-stamp whatever the church teaches.

Just the opposite for me:

Excerpt - "We’re seeing the first signs of an avalanche of conversions and reconversions. In 1998, more than 88,000 Protestants were received into the Catholic Church (and more than 73,000 adults were baptized, many of them from Protestant backgrounds) and the Protestants [now] coming into the Church are the most devoted Protestants, people deeply committed to Scripture and prayer. What accounts for this Protestant exodus at the twilight of the 20th century…?

** God bless everybody!.**

God bless my friend…

 

[pablope]

I’m surprised at the level of antipathy toward Protestants. I’ve begun investigating Catholicism, but this makes me pause.

Hmmm…antipathy? You should read more posts…some protestants here have over 3000 posts…look at the top right so see date of membership.

Discussions do get heated…but what would you expect when defending our beliefs…both sides.

On some occassions where some discussions get out of hand…we are warned by the moderators…and offer apologies.

Anyway, enjoy your stay here…and welcome.

 

[pablope]

“It is a sadness and a disgrace to Christianity,” when referring to Protestantism is probably where I began to wonder.

Pardon me…but where did you get this statement/qoute?

I can’t imagine Catholics we knew there considering Protestants non-Christians.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

“It is a sadness and a disgrace to Christianity,” when referring to Protestantism is probably where I began to wonder.

My son attended Catholic school as a Protestant through the end of middle school, and I didn’t encounter this attitude there. It was an incredibly inclusive place.

My daughter attended through middle school what was then the only ecumenical Sacred Heart School in the US. I can’t imagine Catholics we knew there considering Protestants non-Christians.

Perhaps I’m misreading posters on this thread. I hope so.

Christ established one Church with one religion in A.D. 33 in Jerusalem. He promised to be with this Church until the end of time (Mt 28:20 KJV) and sent the Holy Spirit to be with her and to guide her always (Jn 14:16-18, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-15). This Church wrote what became the New Testament during the first Christian century and selected the contents of the NT and formed the Bible at the end of the fourth century. The NT consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings.

Protestantism is a rebellion against the Church founded by Christ and her God-given doctrines and practices. It has splintered into thousands of denominations with thousands of different interpretations of the same incomplete 66-book Bible, reduced after Martin Luther rejected seven of the Old Testament writings, plus parts of Daniel and Esther, from the canon of his German translation.

The shattering of Christendom is indeed sad and a disgrace to Christianity. Christ intended that there be one Church. Unity is the theme throughout the NT, especially in the writings of St. Paul, and it was Jesus’s prayer in John 17. He prayed that all His followers be one so that the world might believe in Him. Christianity with its multitude of divisions is a hard sell to the non-Christian world.

Christianity is a revealed religion. It was revealed by Christ to His Apostles through His Church. Protestantism implies that there was no revelation; every individual is free to decide what he thinks the Bible means for himself. The result is chaos.

Catholics and their Church love Protestants, but not Protestantism.

Jim Dandy