Protestantism Today

[JonNC]

=LilHomemaker;8624938]My question is, my thought is, that if Luther was the great reformer as protestants claim he is, why do not all protestants follow his teachings?

Not all protestants beleive he was a great reformer. Many think he was too Catholic.

As an ex-protestant I have read some of his teachings. Much of what he said, as we all know was in protest of the Catholic church but there was much he did not want to throw out. That is what the continual protesting of the protestant movement has done, though. Protesting to the point where in many churches there isn’t much left except entertainment.

Let’s first talk about what the protest was. The protest that brought about the term protestant was not against the Church or its teachings. See the Second Diet of Speyer of 1529. You are right that there was much he wanted to retain. That others did not is not Luther’s doing, unless one believes they were simple lemmings following a lead. I agree with you; I wish they had followed Luther - reconciliation might then be a lot easier.

Truths are very difficult to find. Even prayer is very shallow and a minute at the most. Game shows, skits, tootsie roll pops, popcorn, m&m’s, making fun of Jesus and the apostles, soccer, hoola hoops, Elvis Presley and so much more are now big in mainline and evangelical churches. These things I list because these things I saw in both mainline and evangelical churches. I have a feeling this is not what Luther intended.

While I think you’re overstating your point with hyperbole, in general I agree. That is not what he would approve of.

Also, just because someone was once part of truth doesn’t mean once they splinter or leave they are still part of the truth. They may take some truths with them but they have left truth behind. Just because people have left the Catholic church and started their own church doesn’t mean the true Catholic church is not still there as it has been since Jesus started it. He promised it would always be.

Maybe its in Orthodoxy. Certainly it is in the Church Triumphant. But if you make the point that disunity is a sign of lack of truth, then all of us, including Catholics, need to look in the mirror.

Also, I should put that I should have stated it different. Protestantism does have some truths of Christianity but unfortunately when you don’t know ALL the truth then lies and falsehoods creep in and you find yourself moving farther and farther away from what is true. The Catholic Church, because of the wonderful grace of our Lord, holds the fullness of truth.

That is perhaps a better statement of the Catholic POV.

Jon

 

[joe370]

LilHomemaker

Agree. I understand that there were protestants that came along after and not all protestants think ML was that great. I also, understand there were other reformers who all thought that they knew, as ML thought he knew, what the scriptures said. All so, so very many. As time went on the Restoration movement came along and then other movements some of which are around today, like the evangelical movement.

I see this as showing my point. If protesting was providing truths, truths would be held instead of tossed out.

I agree that it definitely advances your point!

 

[LilHomemaker]

N

Maybe its in Orthodoxy. Certainly it is in the Church Triumphant. But if you make the point that disunity is a sign of lack of truth, then all of us, including Catholics, need to look in the mirror.

That is perhaps a better statement of the Catholic POV.

Jon

The Catholic Church holds the truth. We don’t need to look in the mirror to decide if the Catholic Church is holding truths. We need to look to the Church to find the truth.

It is not just a point of view for Catholics. God’s truths aren’t just true because Catholics believe it. Truth is truth. Truth doesn’t become a lie just because some one doesn’t believe it. It is still truth. And the more a truth is filled with lies and falsehoods the less it becomes a truth. Protesting did nothing to reform the church as it continually through out truths and brought in confusion.

If your child or any one told you part of a truth and the rest filled in with falsehoods and led you down the wrong path in a decision you needed to make that would influence the rest of your life and those lies or falsehoods kept you from making the right decision, you would not find contentment in your decision.

 

[joe370]

LilHomemaker;8625436]
It is not just a point of view for Catholics. God’s truths aren’t just true because Catholics believe it. Truth is truth. Truth doesn’t become a lie just because some one doesn’t believe it. It is still truth. And the more a truth is filled with lies and falsehoods the less it becomes a truth. Protesting did nothing to reform the church as it continually through out truths and brought in confusion.

As a former protestant, I came to believe that the protestant reformation did nothing to reform the catholic church, but rather assisted in the advancement, if only indirectly, of vying churches and doctrinal disunity, and the reason for both, in my humble opinion, is the fact that scripture alone, for most, is the protestants only authority.

 

[LilHomemaker]

As a former protestant, I came to believe that the protestant reformation did nothing to reform the catholic church, but rather assisted in the advancement, if only indirectly, of vying churches and doctrinal disunity, and the reason for both, in my humble opinion, is the fact that scripture alone, for most, is the protestants only authority.

I agree.

 

[CopticChristian]

joe370;8624992:

Agree. I understand that there were protestants that came along after and not all protestants think ML was that great. I also, understand there were other reformers who all thought that they knew, as ML thought he knew, what the scriptures said. All so, so very many. As time went on the Restoration movement came along and then other movements some of which are around today, like the evangelical movement.

I see this as showing my point. If protesting was providing truths, truths would be held instead of tossed out.

Protestants say that the Catholic Church “veered”…ask any Protestant to dileneate the veering.

Protestant thought is unified by

When you say “Reformer” what did they reform? They changed doctrine. Calvinism is the God of good and God of Evil. They invented doctrine. Restore? What did they restore? When your computer has corrupt files and you restore it you get a computer that was as it was and not some other machine like an adding machine.
Sola Scriptura, doesn’t work and impossible to prove
Sola Fide, Catholic Church says by grace alone, by Faith alone working in love
Extrinsic Justification outwardly just but not truly just, Catholic Church says justified internally and externally as a child of God.
Denial Church Authority, Church says Magesterium/Tradition/Scripture

Protestant thought is Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Methodist, Anabaptist, Baptist. Anabaptists are the Menonites and Amish and are pretty quiet. Baptists are of several types and do not see themselves as Protestants.

Many Fundamentalists deny evolution. Ok. What about the evolution of thought. Anglican to Methodist to Holiness movement to AOG, Church Nazarene, Pentacostal…and then of course the Fundamentalists at Niagra and the Dispensationalists and now the Evangelicals.

The Protesting is not done in thought and deed but in action based on lack of knowledge from whence they came, ie “I’m just a Christian”…those that are further from the denominational tree are less likely to know or see that they are Protestant and therefore do not see themselves as “protesting”…

There is no one Protestant form of thought just as there is no such thing as “The Protestant Church” with any authority over all Protestant thought.

 

[Roy5]

** What many Catholics find confusing and a weakness - namely, differences of opinion among Protestants - others see in a positive light.** I come from a mixed background and feel that I appreciate much in both traditions. There is considerable beauty and tradition in Catholicism, but I personally need the intellectual freedom to weigh, ponder, examine, doubt and even disagree with the catechism on this or that matter. The thought that I must accept everything the church hands down strikes me as diminishing my freedom. Catholicism can seem fearful of this sort of freedom and it is so criticized and mocked here on CAF.
**
When I attended Mass this morning I noticed, as I regularly do, how many people who are present seem so passive.** Few sing the hymns and many do not participate in the responses. They just sit or stand or kneel without showing any emotion… When I have been at Protestant churches the congregation, in most cases, seems much more involved. They certainly sing out, and that makes an impression.

 **Let me add that Catholics always seemed better church-goers than Protestants.** That certainly was true when and where I grew up. Not as sure of that today. The priests here in town estimate that attendance averages about 20-25% of Catholics living here.

** Mainline Protestantism - to me the more reasonable variety - seems to be losing ground to the evangelicals.** The evangelicals appear to have more in common with Catholicism in two respects: both are quicker to accept miracles, visions, etc., than mainline Protestants, and both are more authoritative in what they believe. The very strength I like in mainline Protestantism - true freedom of belief - isn't what lots of searchers apparently are looking for. They seem to prefer to be instructed as to what they should believe.

** God bless 'em all.**

 

[Tony888]

Maybe the signers of the DOI were Protestants becuase they all came from the UK. Catholics were heavily persecuted in the UK at the time, and in the colonies as well.

Thanksgiving reminds me of this truth so much, we have it pounded into our heads that the Pilgrims came here to establish religous freedom. But what is neglected in our public schools is the came here to establish freedom for themselves only.

As soon as the Puritans came into power they started persecuting everyone else. Not only Catholics but Anglicans, Quakers and even Baptists.

It took the Baptists in Rhode Island and the Catholics in Maryland along with the Friends (Quakers) to estabish religious freedom in pockets of the colonies.

It is sad how the persecuted minority easly become the autocratic majority. It’s more about human nature and group dynamics than religion.

 

[LilHomemaker]

** What many Catholics find confusing and a weakness - namely, differences of opinion among Protestants - others see in a positive light.**

I had a rare opportunity in my life. I worked in a Christian setting where there were 10-20 different denominations trying to come together. Talk about confusion and disagreements, arguments, people walking out, or just plain old conversations about the differences in belief. People don’t think there are many different beliefs among protestants that are that big of a deal but oh my gosh there were so many and it can be very emotional. Here I was a searching Christian. Listening to this I wanted to pull my hair out. Not many people have that opportunity but I did and I am glad I am out of it.

When I attended Mass this morning I noticed, as I regularly do, how many people who are present seem so passive.

Few sing the hymns and many do not participate in the responses. They just sit or stand or kneel without showing any emotion… When I have been at Protestant churches the congregation, in most cases, seems much more involved. They certainly sing out, and that makes an impression.

There have been many threads about this but I think the big difference is, in a Catholic church it is not about the singing. In a protestant church singing is a big moment. People get all prepared for the songs. I remember as a protestant we used to get all our bookmarks ready in the hymnal before service began. In a Catholic Church the big moment is the Eucharist. Singing is good but certainly not the focus. Prayer and contemplating where you are and who you are with are important. I’m there to pray the mass, meditate and look forward to the Eucharist not the singing.

Let me add that Catholics always seemed better church-goers than Protestants. That certainly was true when and where I grew up. Not as sure of that today. The priests here in town estimate that attendance averages about 20-25% of Catholics living here.

I think Catholics are better church goers because it is a sin to miss. My protestant friends don’t see it as any big deal to do something else on Sunday if they should so desire because it is not considered a sin to them. (there are some denominational exceptions to that, though) I need to try to get to Mass early because if I don’t, it is standing room only. I haven’t seen too many Masses with low attendance, on a Sunday at any parishes I have attended. There has been many who have left the church in the last 40 years but I believe that is changing. There are more and more reverts and converts and even if attendance did drop the Catholic church will still be there and God will still be there protecting it, guiding it and bringing people home. With the age of knowledge people have opportunity to seek out the truth in a way they never could before.

** The very strength I like in mainline Protestantism - true freedom of belief **

As I said earlier, just because you believe it doesn’t make it true. People spend more time trying to find someone or someplace that agrees with their beliefs than trying to find the truth, thus becoming their own pope and working very hard on their own. Been there, done that. Protestantism was a wild ride and I am glad to finally be home where there the truth is.

 

[CopticChristian]

** What many Catholics find confusing and a weakness - namely, differences of opinion among Protestants - others see in a positive light.** I come from a mixed background and feel that I appreciate much in both traditions. There is considerable beauty and tradition in Catholicism, but I personally need the intellectual freedom to weigh, ponder, examine, doubt and even disagree with the catechism on this or that matter. The thought that I must accept everything the church hands down strikes me as diminishing my freedom. Catholicism can seem fearful of this sort of freedom and it is so criticized and mocked here on CAF.
**
** When I attended Mass this morning I noticed, as I regularly do, how many people who are present seem so passive.**** Few sing the hymns and many do not participate in the responses. They just sit or stand or kneel without showing any emotion… When I have been at Protestant churches the congregation, in most cases, seems much more involved. They certainly sing out, and that makes an impression.

 **Let me add that Catholics always seemed better church-goers than Protestants.** That certainly was true when and where I grew up. Not as sure of that today. The priests here in town estimate that attendance averages about 20-25% of Catholics living here.

** Mainline Protestantism - to me the more reasonable variety - seems to be losing ground to the evangelicals.** The evangelicals appear to have more in common with Catholicism in two respects: both are quicker to accept miracles, visions, etc., than mainline Protestants, and both are more authoritative in what they believe. The very strength I like in mainline Protestantism - true freedom of belief - isn't what lots of searchers apparently are looking for. They seem to prefer to be instructed as to what they should believe.

** God bless 'em all.**

Come to my Church. We all sit and stand and sing really loud and everyone is involved. My priest has long hair and looks like Jesus. You are going to the wrong church. We do not kneel for there are no kneelers and yet there are those that after communion kneel on the ground. Can you imagine people loving their faith so much. You should find another Catholic Church.

 

[Protestant_Me]

Many Protestants also know little about the history of the Bible they profess to live by. They don’t know that the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings and that the Catholic Church compiled the Bible at the end of the fourth century. The Bible is a Catholic book.QUOTE]

So the Catholic Church added their two cents in? How is this the true word of God then???

 

[Protestant_Me]

Protestants feel compelled to explain why they aren’t Catholic, but few know or understand Catholicism. What is said on those websites joe370 describes is the product of ignorance.

Many Protestants also know little about the history of the Bible they profess to live by. They don’t know that the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings and that the Catholic Church compiled the Bible at the end of the fourth century. The Bible is a Catholic book.

When I was a Protestant, I was also ignorant of the Truth. It never occurred to me to ask where we got the Bible. I guess I thought it fell out of heaven. But God chose to make the Catholic Church the agent of the Holy Spiirt to produce the Bible. Every Protestant has his/her own personal interpretation (i.e., opinion) of the Bible – or they accept someone else’s personal interpretation. But only the Church who wrote the NT knows what it means. The Church is not based on the NT; rather, the NT is based on the Church.

OH Yeah!

And people wonder why Catholics are so protested against. This attitude has to stop.

 

[JustaServant]

 When I attended Mass this morning** I noticed, as I regularly do, **how many people who are present seem so passive. Few sing the hymns and many do not participate in the responses. They just sit or stand or kneel without showing any emotion..

Herein lies the difference between how Catholics and Protestants worship.
When I go to Mass my attention is in prayer, the Tabernacle, the liturgy.
What others are doing, wearing, or saying is really none of my business. My focus is on the Presence of Christ, not on the skimpy outfit the lady in front of me has, disruptive children, or whether or not that guy in the second pew seems to be going through the motions.
Again, none of my business.
I am there to focus on God, not man.
Sounds like an attention problem.

 

[CopticChristian]

And people wonder why Catholics are so protested against. This attitude has to stop.

Your posting is typical in my opinion of Protestant thought, Protestant writing, selectively stringing things together to make a point. I protest this. Your posting suggests that LilHomemaker is putting a thumbs up to Jim Dandy and that is not the way it went down.

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy
Protestants feel compelled to explain why they aren’t Catholic, but few know or understand Catholicism. What is said on those websites joe370 describes is the product of ignorance.

Many Protestants also know little about the history of the Bible they profess to live by. They don’t know that the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings and that the Catholic Church compiled the Bible at the end of the fourth century. The Bible is a Catholic book.

When I was a Protestant, I was also ignorant of the Truth. It never occurred to me to ask where we got the Bible. I guess I thought it fell out of heaven. But God chose to make the Catholic Church the agent of the Holy Spiirt to produce the Bible. Every Protestant has his/her own personal interpretation (i.e., opinion) of the Bible – or they accept someone else’s personal interpretation. But only the Church who wrote the NT knows what it means. The Church is not based on the NT; rather, the NT is based on the Church.

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker
The Church may be battled but never defeated. I dont care how smart you or others think you all are, in the end Christ and His Church will win.

Originally Posted by LilHomemaker
OH Yeah!

LilHomemaker was giving the thumbs up to Wisdomseeker.

What do you object to? I see Jim Dandy has generalized however I notice that Jim Dandy was once Protestant. This give Jim a perspective I do not have. It is said that Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorance of Christ. Are you offended that we, you and many others may be ignorant?

Ignorance is lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant.

I do not claim not to be ignorant on some things. I lack some knowledge, some information and I am educated.

The Bible is a Catholic Book produced by the Church. Facts are facts. Are you protesting truth. Read my post on why Protestants can’t read Scripture and tell all where you believe the Bible had it’s origin. Tell all why the deuterocanonicals were taken out by Protestants and the authority that did it. Clear this mess up.

Jim Dandy states his position as when a Protestant and he believes he was ignorant. Do you not agree that Christ and the Church of Christ however you see it regardless of you paradigm will prevail? Revelation says it will.

What attitude did you see here that I don’t see?

 

[Roy5]

Justaservant
It seemed to me that few were involved in worship. Many appeared to be there because that was expected, a family tradition, whatever. The attitude more likely was apathy or indifference than one of devotion. Sorry. Just my observation - and often. I don't doubt for a moment that some, like you, were focusing on the Tabernacle and the liturgy. Many never even consulted the Missal even though yesterday the historic changes were made in the Mass.

 

[JustaServant]

Justaservant

It seemed to me that few were involved in worship. Many appeared to be there because that was expected, a family tradition, whatever. The attitude more likely was apathy or indifference than one of devotion. Sorry. Just my observation - and often. I don't doubt for a moment that some, like you, were focusing on the Tabernacle and the liturgy. Many never even consulted the Missal even though yesterday the historic changes were made in the Mass.

So you were’nt there to worship then, you were doing some sort of sociological survey.
I go to Church to worship…

 

[LilHomemaker]

Justaservant

It seemed to me that few were involved in worship. Many appeared to be there because that was expected, a family tradition, whatever. The attitude more likely was apathy or indifference than one of devotion. Sorry. Just my observation - and often. I don't doubt for a moment that some, like you, were focusing on the Tabernacle and the liturgy. Many never even consulted the Missal even though yesterday the historic changes were made in the Mass.

Only God can see what’s in a person’s heart. I do find when I am looking around at other people and trying to figure out why aren’t you using a missal or why aren’t you kneeling correctly or why don’t you look happier to be here, I find I am missing out on Mass myself and I get irritable. I can’t judge peoples hearts and neither can you. That is not fair to those people. You don’t know their stories or their hardships. You don’t know how hard or how little they are praying. I believe we all know the story in the Bible of the man who looked around at everyone else while praying. I am not saying you are not going to notice people, I do myself, but you can’t compare Mass, a place of prayer and Eucharist to a protestant worship service where singing is one of the main focuses.

As far as using the missal, our parish had cue cards. I, at first thought I was going to follow along with the missal and not use the cue cards. I had a hard time and switched to the cue cards. Most people I saw were using the cue cards and not the missal.

The best thing I have found to help me at Mass is to focus on what is going on up at the altar. Maybe that is what the others there are doing when you think they look passive. They are focusing on the miracle happening.

One other thing is I have noticed it makes a difference where I sit at Mass. I am not putting people down who choose to sit in the back, I have at times myself, but at our parish it is usually the people in the front or middle that are more focused on what is going on and stay at the end until the song is over. I have noticed that people who sit in the back do tend to step out a little quicker and focus a little less. I say that lightly because at times during the week I had been sitting in the back but since have been moving forward.

 

[JustaServant]

Only God can see what’s in a person’s heart. I do find when I am looking around at other people and trying to figure out why aren’t you using a missal or why aren’t you kneeling correctly or why don’t you look happier to be here, I find I am missing out on Mass myself and I get irritable. I can’t judge peoples hearts and neither can you. That is not fair to those people. You don’t know their stories or their hardships. You don’t know how hard or how little they are praying. I believe we all know the story in the Bible of the man who looked around at everyone else while praying. I am not saying you are not going to notice people, I do myself, but you can’t compare Mass, a place of prayer and Eucharist to a protestant worship service where singing is one of the main focuses.

The opposite happens in many fundamentalist/evangelical churches. They jump, they dance, the sing, wave their hands and Bibles in the air, scream AMEN PREACHA’!!!
And these same people leave thier enthusiasm at the church door and you wouldn’t know they beleived ANYTHING the rest of the week. In fact, your jaw drops to the floor when they tell you their ‘testimony’.
I know, I’ve been there. I pastored them, I worked with them, I’ve lived around them.
Your enthusiastic performance in church does not tell me a thing about your spirit.

 

[LilHomemaker]

And people wonder why Catholics are so protested against. This attitude has to stop.

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker
The Church may be battled but never defeated. I dont care how smart you or others think you all are, in the end Christ and His Church will win.

Originally Posted by LilHomemaker
OH Yeah!

I am sorry if my OH Yeah offended you but I was not Oh yeahing Jim Dandy but Wisdomseeker. She was commenting on a post that referred to people being smarter today and able to think things differently and didn’t need the Church. Even as a protestant you must know that God doesn’t always choose the wise and being smart doesn’t always mean wise in God’s ways.

It does make me want to rejoice to know that Our Lord’s promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church is solid.

God Bless
Sue

 

[CopticChristian]

Justaservant

It **seemed to me** that few were involved in worship. Many appeared to be there because that was expected, a family tradition, whatever. The attitude more likely was apathy or indifference than one of devotion. Sorry. Just my observation - and often. I don't doubt for a moment that some, like you, were focusing on the Tabernacle and the liturgy. Many never even consulted the Missal even though yesterday the historic changes were made in the Mass.

Often what seems to me to be something is often the contrary or different than what it seems to be. Jesus was the Lord of Lords, King of Kings and there were those that did not see that. It seems that to them he should be murdered and they did. No one can read minds. Your observations and statements are filtered by your thinking.

Attitude. You can discern that? Wow. I know this big Italian guy that would scare the heck out of you. When he attends mass you would think he is thinking anything but devotion. When you get to know him, he smiles, he gives hugs, he acknowledges my daughter and after some time what I thought him to be is not what he is.

Apathy. How can you judge that? I have a cold right now and many would think I am sad. I am just sick. I may look apathetic however it is caused by a virus.

Many don’t consult the missal. I have not consulted one in ages. I practically know it by heart. I have the new one and I will incorporate that slowly. Our priest in fact stated that there would be time for education and catechesis. Do you expect less or more?

Try seeing things through a positive light. Recall the issue of Australia being 24% Catholic. That is a positive. Australia was founded in 1788. I would bet that the number of Catholics in Australia at its founding was less than it is now. In fact as you celebrate the USA, the number of Catholics was far less than it is now and that is a positive. This is a cup half full.