Protestantization of U.S. Catholicism

[Dave_in_Dallas]

After coming back to the Catholic church last year I am surprised about how many factions there are with in the church – to the extent that many people claim that the others aren’t really Catholics. At the very least the polemics hurled from TLM/EF vs OF sure looks like most other denomination wars with in the U.S. and sure lacks love and “universality”.
The condemnation of other parishes’ sanctuaries because they don’t meet with your approval of what “holy” should look like or the music or singing is not to your style sure smells of protestantism, i.e. Baptist vs methodist vs Presbyterian, etc. or maybe even the polemics of East vs West church.
If the Catholic Church were really “catholic” shouldn’t we embrace our diversity rather than try to subversively dismantle the “style” we don’t like?

 

[Tsuwano]

After coming back to the Catholic church last year I am surprised about how many factions there are with in the church – to the extent that many people claim that the others aren’t really Catholics. At the very least the polemics hurled from TLM/EF vs OF sure looks like most other denomination wars with in the U.S. and sure lacks love and “universality”.
The condemnation of other parishes’ sanctuaries because they don’t meet with your approval of what “holy” should look like or the music or singing is not to your style sure smells of protestantism, i.e. Baptist vs methodist vs Presbyterian, etc. or maybe even the polemics of East vs West church.
If the Catholic Church were really “catholic” shouldn’t we embrace our diversity rather than try to subversively dismantle the “style” we don’t like?

I think you’re right that many opinions are often offered which seem to condemn differing opinions, but the thing to note is that these are, in the end, mainly personal opinions and do not reflect the Church itself. The Bishops hold authority in the Church and it is their opinions which should be listened to. The Bishops are in communion with one another regarding the Church and our faith and, in fact, do indeed embrace our worldwide diversity. We should perhaps be more kind towards one another in listening to the various opinions offered in this forum and elsewhere, but when push comes to shove, the true Catholic is united with his Bishop who is united with the See of St. Peter.

 

[jonpd]

I don’t think it is like Protestantism at all. What you have today is differing degrees of following the Church teachings that were handed on down to us. There is still only one set of beliefs, unlike in the Protestant world where you have a variety of individual interpretations. In today’s CC there is a variety of degrees of conformance to teachings such as Artificial Birth Control, whether or not there is a Hell, whether there is salvation outside the church, whether the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ and the Mass a re-presentation of the holy sacrifice of Jesus on the cross or just a communal meal to remember Him by, to name a few.

 

[thistle]

After coming back to the Catholic church last year I am surprised about how many factions there are with in the church – to the extent that many people claim that the others aren’t really Catholics. At the very least the polemics hurled from TLM/EF vs OF sure looks like most other denomination wars with in the U.S. and sure lacks love and “universality”.
The condemnation of other parishes’ sanctuaries because they don’t meet with your approval of what “holy” should look like or the music or singing is not to your style sure smells of protestantism, i.e. Baptist vs methodist vs Presbyterian, etc. or maybe even the polemics of East vs West church.
If the Catholic Church were really “catholic” shouldn’t we embrace our diversity rather than try to subversively dismantle the “style” we don’t like?

There are only two types of Catholics.
Those in a state of grace and those in a state of mortal sin.

 

[Hiskid1973]

There are only two types of Catholics.

I’d say there are two types of Christians…Hot and lukewarm…The lukewarm are in a scary place…Those who are cold could care less…No matter Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, He knows who are passionate in their relationship with Him…If you want to have something more protestant I wish you would be more evangelical in your witnessing…I had a powerful conversion to Christ in 1973 and I have had all kinds of bible church people, JW’s and Mormons come to my door but never a Catholic has come to talk to me about Jesus and HIs plan of salvation…A lot of churches are lacking fellowship also…

 

[Scoobyshme]

After coming back to the Catholic church last year I am surprised about how many factions there are with in the church – to the extent that many people claim that the others aren’t really Catholics. At the very least the polemics hurled from TLM/EF vs OF sure looks like most other denomination wars with in the U.S. and sure lacks love and “universality”.
The condemnation of other parishes’ sanctuaries because they don’t meet with your approval of what “holy” should look like or the music or singing is not to your style sure smells of protestantism, i.e. Baptist vs methodist vs Presbyterian, etc. or maybe even the polemics of East vs West church.
If the Catholic Church were really “catholic” shouldn’t we embrace our diversity rather than try to subversively dismantle the “style” we don’t like?

Dave,

Whether you realize it or not, we're in a war to end all wars.  Have been for quite a while.  This war, though, is far more poignant than all the other wars we have seen through the centuries combined.  This war isn't between flesh and blood, but between principalities and powers, the powers of evil vs. the powers of God.  

The Church has been under attack since it started, but most especially now. Satan has been given a long leash and has done much damage, not just from attacking the Church from the outside, but also from the inside.

Within the last century or so, we have been attacked from three main groups:  Marxists (Communists, mostly), Masons, and the Modernists.  The first two groups have attacked the Church from without; the last group from within.  Many of our priests and bishops have fallen for the heresy of Modernism.  They do the most damage.  That's why most Catholics in our country and Western affluent society have about a first or second grade understanding of their Catholic faith, i.e., they don't know their faith.  That's why a majority of Catholics in this country vote for pro-abortion candidates, support same-sex marriage as "okay," practice artificial birth control, don't attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days regularly, etc.  

You might find the talks on "Old War/New War" by Fr. John Corapi enlightening.  You can download 'em here:

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%201%20New%20War%20Old%20War.mp3

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%202%20Spiritual%20Training.mp3

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%203%20Spritual%20Weapons%20and%20Tactics.mp3

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%204%20To%20Serve,%20Not%20to%20Be%20Served.mp3

God bless!

 

[Tsuwano]

thistle;7406900:

There are only two types of Catholics.

I’d say there are two types of Christians…Hot and lukewarm…The lukewarm are in a scary place…Those who are cold could care less…No matter Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, He knows who are passionate in their relationship with Him…If you want to have something more protestant I wish you would be more evangelical in your witnessing…I had a powerful conversion to Christ in 1973 and I have had all kinds of bible church people, JW’s and Mormons come to my door but never a Catholic has come to talk to me about Jesus and HIs plan of salvation…

I think you are right to think that Catholics could be more passionate in expressing their faith. I certainly know I could be. And yet, here you are on a Catholic forum, listening to and conversing with Catholics about faith. Perhaps no Catholic has ever knocked on your door, but it could be that the Holy Spirit has led you here nonetheless. Maybe that is something worth thinking about.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Hiskid1973;7406956:

I think you are right to think that Catholics could be more passionate in expressing their faith. I certainly know I could be. And yet, here you are on a Catholic forum, listening to and conversing with Catholics about faith. Perhaps no Catholic has ever knocked on your door, but it could be that the Holy Spirit has led you here nonetheless. Maybe that is something worth thinking about.

I am in christian forums to encourage others to go deeper in Christ…I am disabled from complications for a work accident…I get a lot of time to pray and encourage other followers of Christ…I also live in a very strong Italian Catholic area so I have Catholic interaction…I don’t really see followers of Christ with labels other than christians…I was very evangelical in witnessing to hundreds the gospel message in my younger/healtier days…I just want to encourage others to share the message of Christ to those God has put in their paths…

 

[Victorious]

If the Catholic Church were really “catholic” shouldn’t we embrace our diversity rather than try to subversively dismantle the “style” we don’t like?

I get the feeling you think that those who favor traditional worship ought to just fold their tents and go home. But the Holy Father himself has lamented, and seeks to heal, the rupture from tradition that followed on the heels of Vatican II, and for which Vatican II was used as an excuse (though the council did not call for anything like what has happened).

Don’t confuse Catholicity with syncretism. Some things are proper to Catholic worship; others are not. These issues matter very much, because, as we worship, so we believe; and as we believe, so we live. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.

 

[Barbkw]

In today’s CC there is a variety of degrees of conformance to teachings such as Artificial Birth Control, whether or not there is a Hell, whether there is salvation outside the church, whether the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ and the Mass a re-presentation of the holy sacrifice of Jesus on the cross or just a communal meal to remember Him by, to name a few.

?

I believe you are correct about the ABC.

And I will conceed that if Catholics stop attending Mass and join a protestant denomination then they can not and do not understand the Mass, the Eucharist, and Reconciliation.

 

[ProVobis]

After coming back to the Catholic church last year I am surprised about how many factions there are with in the church – to the extent that many people claim that the others aren’t really Catholics. At the very least the polemics hurled from TLM/EF vs OF sure looks like most other denomination wars with in the U.S. and sure lacks love and “universality”.
The condemnation of other parishes’ sanctuaries because they don’t meet with your approval of what “holy” should look like or the music or singing is not to your style sure smells of protestantism, i.e. Baptist vs methodist vs Presbyterian, etc. or maybe even the polemics of East vs West church.
If the Catholic Church were really “catholic” shouldn’t we embrace our diversity rather than try to subversively dismantle the “style” we don’t like?

In light of the Vatican 2 documents on ecumenism, it is interesting that you should ask. I came across this article which asks how many Protestant denominations there are (33,000?) and it appears some consider each country having its own Catholic denomination as well.

philvaz.com/apologetics/a120.htm

My questions would be what constitutes Protestantism: Having liturgies in the all-vernacular? Singing the same hymns? No need to go to confession? Being able to eat meat on Friday? Using more Scripture in the liturgy? Cannot live with certain church doctrine, yet still remain Catholic, even in name only?

 

[laszlo]

In the good old times the obedience to the Magisterium was the first criterion to be Catholic.

This unity is broken now in both side.

 

[Tsuwano]

Tsuwano;7406982:

I am in christian forums to encourage others to go deeper in Christ…I am disabled from complications for a work accident…I get a lot of time to pray and encourage other followers of Christ…I also live in a very strong Italian Catholic area so I have Catholic interaction…I don’t really see followers of Christ with labels other than christians…I was very evangelical in witnessing to hundreds the gospel message in my younger/healtier days…I just want to encourage others to share the message of Christ to those God has put in their paths…

Well, I, for one, can only appreciate your ministry and your desire to encourage others to encounter Christ. Thank you for your witness. My prayer is with you this holiday season and for your own personal encounter with the Lord.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

You essentially have a situation where some Roman Catholics refuse to follow the changes made during Vatican II. They do not feel themselves bound by those changes, they reject them virtually in their entirety, and they refuse to compromise at all.

They want a total and complete return to the pre-Vatican II Church,. They forget that the traditions that they accept were also changes. That nothing that was done in the years immediately before Vatican II was even remotely similar to how things were done in the years immediately after Jesus died, or for the next several centuries. They are in love with a a liturgy that was generated over many centuries, that was not understood by the vast majority of Catholics and that was essentially dead.

Unfortunately, instead of just going to a traditional Mass, where available, they like to condemn others that do not agree with their concepts.

There is also a faction that pretends to be “holier than thou”. They do not have the slightest understanding of the injunction “Judge not, lest you be judged”. They judge everyone, and everything, according to their concepts of what is allowable.

Yes, there has been, and continues to be, a “Protestantism” of the Roman Catholic Church. Over time, the rigid traditionalists will likely go the way of the “Old Catholic Church” and others that split off from Rome. They will either begin their own church, or they will gradually accept that Vatican II had both the power, and the authority, to change many things about the church.

The essentials have not changed at all. The beliefs are the same, it is just the trimmings that have changed. But some are so threatened by such a simple change that they attack anyone that accepts it…

The fact that the Mass is no longer in Latin does not matter a whit. The original Masses were in the vernacular (which is why the Apostles were given the gift of tongues, so they could preach to each in their own language). It was only in the middle ages that the requirement that the Mass be in Latin was imposed.

The Priest facing the congregation is another of their huge bug-a-boos. Hate to tell them, but long before the Tridentine Rite, the Priest faced the people. That’s why that was the very first change made (before Latin was eliminated, etc.) to bring the Mass into conformance with the earliest practices.

I do wish that the Tridentine lovers would actually study the history of the Mass. They would discover that that version was actually an abomination of what the Mass had been before. It worshiped the ritual, instead of the essence. It was so rigid, so unbending that it meant literally nothing to the vast majority of those that went to Mass.

I expect to be attacked over this note. Doesn’t bother me, I am secure in my faith, and unlike so many of the attackers, I DO KNOW the history of my Church and of its rituals.

I also have the luxury of having converted into the “Old Ritual”, and have seen how much more participation there is today than ever existed before.

 

[ProVobis]

You essentially have a situation where some Roman Catholics refuse to follow the changes made during Vatican II. They do not feel themselves bound by those changes, they reject them virtually in their entirety, and they refuse to compromise at all.

Pointing the finger at the traditionalists again?

Vatican II, or more specifically SC, did not change much. In fact, it reinforced much of Trent. However, the “spirit of Vatican II” attempted to undo Trent, which reaffirmed the Catholic position against the Reformers. I say we have a ways to go before SC is fully or even partially, implemented.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The things that drive me BATTY about Catholicism around here are:

holding hands during the Our Father
communion in the hand
Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist trying to “bless” my kids!
kumbaya music
Spanishy music–everything has to have Spanish words in it…sigh

 

[ConstantineTG]

After coming back to the Catholic church last year I am surprised about how many factions there are with in the church – to the extent that many people claim that the others aren’t really Catholics. At the very least the polemics hurled from TLM/EF vs OF sure looks like most other denomination wars with in the U.S. and sure lacks love and “universality”.
The condemnation of other parishes’ sanctuaries because they don’t meet with your approval of what “holy” should look like or the music or singing is not to your style sure smells of protestantism, i.e. Baptist vs methodist vs Presbyterian, etc. or maybe even the polemics of East vs West church.
If the Catholic Church were really “catholic” shouldn’t we embrace our diversity rather than try to subversively dismantle the “style” we don’t like?

In a way there is some Protestant influence into practices but I think this is largely driven by the culture here in North America where its mostly Protestants, as opposed to Old Western Europe where it was mostly Catholic. Cultural practices has always been integrated into the Church since the beginning, it just so happens that in the US, the culture is mostly Protestant.

As with the infighting, I would say there’s a legitimate concern but at the same time, lack of trust in the leadership. There’s a lot of questioning going on about the direction of the Church, but who do we listen to? The lay person or the Bishop? Can you imagine if there was the internet and Facebook and forums and blogs in the first century around the time they allowed uncircumsized gentiles into the Church? Since we don’t have any written accounts of it, we can’t conclusively prove that there were many Jewish converts who were displeased with this change. But knowing human nature, many would have been.

 

[laszlo]

Pointing the finger at the traditionalists again?

Vatican II, or more specifically SC, did not change much. In fact, it reinforced much of Trent. However, the “spirit of Vatican II” attempted to undo Trent, which reaffirmed the Catholic position against the Reformers. I say we have a ways to go before SC is fully or even partially, implemented.

Did you ever meditated why do you call it 'Spirit of Vatican II" instead of what is: the secularism, the modernism, the liberalism, the humanism, or whatever anti-religious ‘ism’. I do not believe it is your fault, just the consequence of the social engineering flooded around us.

By my best knowledge the ideas described in the Sancrosanctum Concilium were implemented by 1967, allowing the active participation, removing the duplications, allowing the vernacular in the intended measure.

By now it is quite clear that the 1964 innovation the fee standing altar was a mistake, so was the optionality of the canon and other parts of the Mass.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Vatican II isn’t the problem, the problem is all the misunderstandings in the wake of Vatican II that screwed it up.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Did you ever meditated why do you call it 'Spirit of Vatican II" instead of what is: the secularism, the modernism, the liberalism, the humanism, or whatever anti-religious ‘ism’. I do not believe it is your fault, just the consequence of the social engineering flooded around us.

By my best knowledge the ideas described in the Sancrosanctum Concilium were implemented by 1967, allowing the active participation, removing the duplications, allowing the vernacular in the intended measure.

By now it is quite clear that the 1964 innovation the fee standing altar was a mistake, so was the optionality of the canon and other parts of the Mass.

Curiously though, active participation and the free standing altar are features found in the East. Indeed we are just going back to older traditions.