Protestantization of U.S. Catholicism

[Monte_RCMS]

Dave,

Whether you realize it or not, we're in a war to end all wars.  Have been for quite a while.  This war, though, is far more poignant than all the other wars we have seen through the centuries combined.  This war isn't between flesh and blood, but between principalities and powers, the powers of evil vs. the powers of God.  

The Church has been under attack since it started, but most especially now. Satan has been given a long leash and has done much damage, not just from attacking the Church from the outside, but also from the inside.

Within the last century or so, we have been attacked from three main groups:  Marxists (Communists, mostly), Masons, and the Modernists.  The first two groups have attacked the Church from without; the last group from within.  Many of our priests and bishops have fallen for the heresy of Modernism.  They do the most damage.  That's why most Catholics in our country and Western affluent society have about a first or second grade understanding of their Catholic faith, i.e., they don't know their faith.  That's why a majority of Catholics in this country vote for pro-abortion candidates, support same-sex marriage as "okay," practice artificial birth control, don't attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days regularly, etc.  

You might find the talks on "Old War/New War" by Fr. John Corapi enlightening.  You can download 'em here:

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%201%20New%20War%20Old%20War.mp3

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%202%20Spiritual%20Training.mp3

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%203%20Spritual%20Weapons%20and%20Tactics.mp3

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%204%20To%20Serve,%20Not%20to%20Be%20Served.mp3

God bless!

This is a pretty accurate statement of the “issue”.

Complicating the problem are translation issues introduced by ICEL … the International Commission on the English Language … which many contend is responsible for problems with the English translation in current use … we always had an English translation and the previous one was “better” than the current one.

There is the aspect of the “national churches” … people from Italy or Poland or Germany or the Philippines, etc. brought their cultures with them and you often had Catholic churches almost side by side but with different cultural and linguistic approaches … and the cultural aspects sometimes took precedence over the centrality of Catholic worship.

There is the aspect of alleged heresies [Jansenism] brought in from Belgian seminaries … primarily Louvain.

books.google.com/books?id=WPB1CfX0tj8C&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=Jansenism+louvain&source=bl&ots=m8hDDtIjVW&sig=XlWPC4kMEdeTkNnkkKl6ki9-guA&hl=en&ei=0XAgTc-QFcWAlAfD4sS-DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Jansenism%20louvain&f=false

There is an encyclical on Modernism which is brief and excellent, which everyone should read.

papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm

In terms of “personal defense” against the intrusion of false teachings, the only answers I can come up with are constant prayer. CONSTANT. Continuous, all day prayer. As you go about your daily routine.

Daily Rosary.

Daily Mass if at all possible.

Eucharistic Adoration, if at all possible.

Invoking of the Holy Spirit on a daily basis.

I enjoy Bishop Sheen’s old television programs which are often broadcast on EWTN.

And “Weeds Among the Wheat” by Fr. Thomas Green.

“The Spiritual Combat” by Dom Lorenzo Scupoli which is a pretty old and classic guideline.

 

[ProVobis]

I do not think it should replace the vernacular completely as another poster has suggested.

No, that would be Pope John XXIII, who convened Vatican II:

Thus the “knowledge and use of this language,” so intimately bound up with the Church’s life, "is important not so much on cultural or literary grounds, as for religious reasons."6 These are the words of Our Predecessor Pius XI, who conducted a scientific inquiry into this whole subject, and indicated three qualities of the Latin language which harmonize to a remarkable degree with the Church’s nature. "For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure to the end of time … of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular."7

and repeated:

Finally, the Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.

 

[ProVobis]

If a Protestant came to this thread considering Catholicism with all I’ve read in here, he’d run like the wind! I’m outta here…

There were many Catholic converts from Protestantism before the Mass was babelized. On top of that, it was a Protestant (Agatha Christie), whose signature appeared in a petition, which convinced Paul VI to preserve the Latin Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Does God even need words?

Good point. In addition to using Latin, which transcends all national languages, there are numerous rubrics and gestures which focus on the Prayer of the Mass: arm extensions, kissing of the altar, bowing toward the crucifix and the missal, genuflecting, signs of the cross, low-tones, touching of the thumb with the finger, cleaning of the patens, epistle side, gospel side, and other rubrics which are their own prayer in the EF.

 

[ProVobis]

Go to a Protestant church…especially the mega churches…what do they believe? Who is there to lead them? Where does there theology come from???

That’s the problem. Each demonination (over 30,000 of them?) has its own belief system, which is more or less determined by its own interpretation of scripture in its own set of phrases in some modern language.

 

[Timothy17]

I don’t disagree with your post until you get to this point. This honestly troubles me greatly. It’s not important for me to understand what is being said? I cannot fathom that logic.

Paradoxically, no and exactly. Yes, it is absolutely quintessential that we perfectly understand what the Holy Spirit is saying to each of us, and therefore the Latin also becomes quintessential, for by that same Spirit, this language has been set aside for His peculiar instruction. No one can be so bold as to claim that the extinction of the once popular Latin language was the result of man-made efforts ; furthermore, no one can deny that this happening was not also a boon for the Church, which now holds it for special and singular use.

Refering back to my previous post, I asserted that the Latin formula are i) fixed, and ii) exact, and therefore to learn (understand) them is to learn the mind of the Church exactly ; otherwise, we are dependent upon human translators. Now assuredly if the translator is good then so shall be the translation ; however, what we receive from the translator is, at best, a copy of the original, and this copy is constantly subject to the abuse of the popular vernacular, and therefore becomes precarious.

Language is a vehicle of expression. Words embody, contain and convey Truth. When we desire to learn the culture of another, it is expedient and quintessential that we first learn and understand his language, which, once understood, then reveals to us the mind of the person, and the particular genius of the people. When we approach Latin, we approach a foreign language, and as we learn it, we learn the mind of the language, which is the genius of the Church : we exit the plane of the common and known, and enter the plane of the sacred and unknown, the Mystery of the Triune God. It is therefore most perfectly fitting that the Church retain for her special and singular use the Latin tongue, which is one of the three languages God saw fit to be used in announcing His Christ, “INRI.” To claim that God’s Providence was not at play when he was formally condemned to death in the Latin, Greek and Hebrew languages is precarious at best, for the Gospel writers chose themselves to include these facts for all time in their Gospels.

You claim the above was a mockery ; however, “God is not mocked.” The world officially and formally killed God’s Christ because He was, and is, “…Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” The Jews that were against Him hoped that by the spectacle and scandal of the Cross, His followers would be discouraged and scattered. It had the opposite effect. The Stigma of the Cross had the exact opposite effect for the intentions of both the Romans and the Jews : it became instead the very Throne of God, and His Words from there the Edicts of the Great King. Their attempted mockery of Him became His Glory. Such is the genius of God.

Pax,
Tim

 

[mark_a]

We may argue about OF and EF…CITH and COTT…Latin and English…

But maybe I’m just too new…but what I love about the Catholic Church…the majesterium is always there to guide us. There is leadership of the church. If I want to know what the Catholic Church teaches and believes…I only have to go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Even though we argue about all the above…they are all valid and allowed currently. Those that don’t believe in reconciliation, that abortion is wrong and such…it’s not because the Church has not taught those things.

Go to a Protestant church…especially the mega churches…what do they believe? Who is there to lead them? Where does there theology come from??? When were they founded?

That’s the biggest difference!

Thi is a wise observation. Thank you.

 

[Victorious]

Are you telling me it is God who needs precise language and not man? Does God even need words? I’m rather bothered by this perception that God cannot know the heart of man when he prays, that He requires language precision, a language made by man. And what if we deviate one iota from this precise language? The prayers are not efficacious? I’m sorry to say, but this is erroneous on so many levels, it is so shortsighted and shows enormous lack of knowledge of Christian worship through the 2000 year history of the Church. Latin is not the only language of Liturgy, its not even the first. One of the oldest Liturgies is the Divine Liturgy of St. James which is probably in Aramaic or Greek, but definitely not in Latin. To make a claim that a worthy Liturgy can only be in Latin… is really head-shaking.

All I can say is, you are bothered by a lot of stuff I did not say. I cannot imagine where you got all those ideas that you attribute to me, except out of your own head. They certainly never entered mine.

The really bothersome thing is the irrational prejudice out there against Latin. But then, it is nothing new. I have been running into it for years, and will continue to do so.

 

[Victorious]

Wow, reality check…never come to the “Traditional Catholic” sector of this forum again. This is another dimension. I can’t get any common sense in here.

Of course you can. I wasn’t asking you to take my word for anything; I kept referring you to the Church document that addressed all your concerns. But if you prefer to cling to error and misconceptions in the face of the Church’s teachings, then there isn’t a thing I can do about it.

 

[Sonny69]

Dave,

Whether you realize it or not, we're in a war to end all wars.  Have been for quite a while.  This war, though, is far more poignant than all the other wars we have seen through the centuries combined.  This war isn't between flesh and blood, but between principalities and powers, the powers of evil vs. the powers of God.  

The Church has been under attack since it started, but most especially now. Satan has been given a long leash and has done much damage, not just from attacking the Church from the outside, but also from the inside.

Within the last century or so, we have been attacked from three main groups:  Marxists (Communists, mostly), Masons, and the Modernists.  The first two groups have attacked the Church from without; the last group from within.  Many of our priests and bishops have fallen for the heresy of Modernism.  They do the most damage.  That's why most Catholics in our country and Western affluent society have about a first or second grade understanding of their Catholic faith, i.e., they don't know their faith.  That's why a majority of Catholics in this country vote for pro-abortion candidates, support same-sex marriage as "okay," practice artificial birth control, don't attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days regularly, etc.  

You might find the talks on "Old War/New War" by Fr. John Corapi enlightening.  You can download 'em here:

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%201%20New%20War%20Old%20War.mp3

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%202%20Spiritual%20Training.mp3

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%203%20Spritual%20Weapons%20and%20Tactics.mp3

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Fr.%20Corapi—New%20War%20Old%20War—Part%204%20To%20Serve,%20Not%20to%20Be%20Served.mp3

God bless!

Hi Scoobyshme,

I have a question; who is the bride of Christ in the Scripture? Is it the Catholic church, the Mormon church, the Luthern church, the Eastern Orthodox church, the Baptists…who exactly is the church that you refer? What does the Scripture, as it is written say who the bride of Christ is?

I think the title of this thread should read more like “the Liberalization of the Catholic Church” because in America and Europe, this is what exactly has happened. The “tolerate everything and everything is PC” crowd has infiltrated all the denominations, including the Catholic church and it will not get better, but it will get worse. relativism has won the day as opposed to absolute truth; at least in appearance, but His church remains firmly united in Him and always has and always will because “He that is in you is stronger than all”. I’m sure glad about that.

God bless you. S69

 

[ProVobis]

Latin is not the only language of Liturgy, its not even the first.

Beg to differ. Latin is the the only language of the EF. And Latin is the only language in which the OF was promulgated. And if you start with the languages of the cross, it indeed was among the first languages of liturgy.

I can’t believe such contempt for the language of the Church and the cross, so much so that if one hears a single word of it at Mass, he decides to leave and not come back? Yet the average English Catholic doesn’t realize that Latin has a direct connection with the cross and half of the words he understands are Latin in origin, so why the contempt? This contempt must have been taught and reinforced by the progressive and Protestant elements within the Church. I can’t explain it any other way.

 

[Sonny69]

Beg to differ. Latin is the the only language of the EF. And Latin is the only language in which the OF was promulgated. And if you start with the languages of the cross, it indeed was among the first languages of liturgy.

I can’t believe such contempt for the language of the Church and the cross, so much so that if one hears a single word of it at Mass, he decides to leave and not come back? Yet the average English Catholic doesn’t realize that Latin has a direct connection with the cross and half of the words he understands are Latin in origin, so why the contempt? This contempt must have been taught and reinforced by the progressive and Protestant elements within the Church. I can’t explain it any other way.

Hi ProVobis,

I can see you are very “fond” of Protestants. Sounds like a good place to set blame for problems within ones own denomination. Ever thought it has to do with a lack of church discipline within your own denomination? The seeping of relativeism and Liberalism into your own denomination as well as others perhaps a tool of Satan. However, the church Christ said He is building is always united in Him and always will till the end of the age; so take heart and hope in these things if you are apart of Him. God bless you. S69

 

[ProVobis]

What is interesting is the opposition to the Roman Catholic Church using Latin in its rites. A bishop even complained about the Pope using it in one of his Masses in the UK.

You might not have seen it in the U.K. but when the Pope was in the U.S. he “corrected” Cardinal George ON NATIONAL TV when the latter failed to mention Latin as one of the worship languages in the U.S.

 

[ProVobis]

I can see you are very “fond” of Protestants. Sounds like a good place to set blame for problems within ones own denomination. Ever thought it has to do with a lack of church discipline within your own denomination? … However, the church Christ said He is building is always united in Him and always will till the end of the age; so take heart and hope in these things if you are apart of Him.

So united yet so divided.

Not that it has anything to do with Latin or lack of it, but I heard at my pastor’s homily this morning that the largest religious denomination in the U.S. is/are ex-Catholics. That was an eye-opener for me.

 

[Nostradennis]

While I think the Tridentine Mass is lovely, reverent, powerful, and NECESSARY for each diocese (preferably each parish!), I do not think it should replace the vernacular completely as another poster has suggested.

Jeremias 6:16
“Thus saith the Lord: Stand ye on the ways, and see and ask for the old paths which is the good way, and walk ye in it: and you shall find refreshment for your souls. And they said: we will not walk.”

 

[ConstantineTG]

Jeremias 6:16
“Thus saith the Lord: Stand ye on the ways, and see and ask for the old paths which is the good way, and walk ye in it: and you shall find refreshment for your souls. And they said: we will not walk.”

True to the thread topic, this is a Protestantism where a verse it taken in context and interpreted using one’s own understanding and intention.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I’m confused, why is the Roman Catholic Church which is led by the Bishop of Rome uses the Latin Rite and uses Latin as its official language arguing whether we should use Latin?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m confused, why is the Roman Catholic Church which uses the Latin Rite and uses Latin as its official language arguing whether we should use Latin?

Also, its not the topic of the thread

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Also, its not the topic of the thread

Very true

 

[Nostradennis]

I’m confused, why is the Roman Catholic Church which is led by the Bishop of Rome uses the Latin Rite and uses Latin as its official language arguing whether we should use Latin?

Because the “Protestantization of U.S.Catholicism” (re:thread topic) sprang from the change of language (re:Latin to the Vernacular) in the liturgy worship. Once the language barrier was torn down then everything became subject to change. Now the local parrish church in my neighborhood has a place of worship with smashed glass instead of stain glass, the kneelers were removed from the pews, no communion rail separating the nave from the sanctuary, addition of modern music, etc. This is at the heart of what the thread creator is talking about. This has created real genuine strife. Now everybody has their own opinion of what a church should look like and the “best” way to worship. It wasn’t always like this. There was uniformity with Latin Rite. With all this change, how does the U.S.Catholic Church keep everybody happy?
It might be that way in Rome but there is a significant number of U.S. Catholics that have to beg and endlessly petition their local bishop for a Latin Mass.
I hope this puts into perspective where I was coming from on this.