Protestantization of U.S. Catholicism

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For 2000+ years wise, holy men have answered questions we think are still current. The Ten Commandments, The Seven Deadly Sins, The Sacraments, The Apostolic Succession, The Baltimore Catechism are pretty clear to understand.

And if you don’t, just do as the most pious priest you know, directs.

Or you can be a Protestant and your own, personal, Pope, worshipping your own, personal Jesus. It’s dangerous.
 
Roy5 said:
The Church can change. I’ve certainly seen it change during my lifetime. From Latin to the vernacular, for example. How many Catholics years ago wouldn’t even attend baptisms, weddings and funerals of relatives because they were held in Protestant churches? The Church warned that to even enter a Protestant church was a serious sin… Oh, and I recall when we learned that babies who were unbaptized when they died could never go to heaven, but to Limbo. Now, that idea seems to have been scrapped. And Protestants. They were heretics. Since Vatican II they have become separated brothers and sisters. We even sing Martin Luther’s “Reformation Hymn” (“A Mighty Fortress In our God”) at Mass now. And we could go on. So, don’t tell me the Church can’t change when it wants to.
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Without debating each of your points here and whether they’re good or bad, I’m only going to say that you’ve given some of the reasons perhaps why the largest denomination out there today are ex-Catholics.
 
ProVobis said:
I’m afraid declining test scores (math, science, reading) in the U.S. show anything but better education. Along with them, decline in moral values as well. Someone, some group, some clergymen, and some teachers, need to step up to the plate. I don’t think ignorance gets you into heaven or betters society but I could be wrong.
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Schools in the US are not responsible for Catholic education. Catholics in churches and in homes are responsible for this.

Just where (on what topics) do you think that Catholic parents are failing?
 
Layman said:
For 2000+ years wise, holy men have answered questions we think are still current. The Ten Commandments, The Seven Deadly Sins, The Sacraments, The Apostolic Succession, The Baltimore Catechism are pretty clear to understand.

And if you don’t, just do as the most pious priest you know, directs.

Or you can be a Protestant and your own, personal, Pope, worshipping your own, personal Jesus. It’s dangerous.
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Protestants don’t have personal Popes or Jesuses.
 
Sure they do. They interpret the Bible personally. 20,000+ denominations, selective interpretation of the Bible, ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’, etc.
 
Layman said:
Sure they do. They interpret the Bible personally. 20,000+ denominations, selective interpretation of the Bible, ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’, etc.
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That does not make one a “Pope,” nor certainly does it make one a “Jesus.” Jesus did not ever interpret the Bible.
 
larkin31 said:
Protestants don’t have personal Popes or Jesuses.
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He asserted that a Protestant can make himself his own Pope and worship his own personal Jesus, which is perfectly true : a Protestant can certainly start his own congregation and govern it howsoever he pleases ; in fact, thus has happened many thousands of times ; furthermore, there is nothing stopping the spirit of Protestantism from either outright quitting or else somehow denying, supplanting or replacing the Church or Jesus with something or someone else by willfull, ignorant, accidental or erroneous compromises, reductions or additions. Your personal belief to the contrary, however powerful or certain it may seem to be, cannot diminish the essential truth of larkin’s observation : both history and the present Christian landscape readily lend evidence to it.

Pax,
Tim
 
JHow said:
Some are fond of saying that they have “accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior”, however.
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That’s not what this means, and it is not what was claimed. The claim made was that Protestants make themselves into their own Pope and Jesus. This is an incorrect claim, and a too-common misrepresentation of Protestants by Catholics.
 
larkin31 said:
No, this was not the assertion. You are changing the wording.
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Well, I shall leave that to him, then, but that is how I understood it.

As to your earlier remark regarding Jesus never interpreting the New Testament (only the Old). I find it to be untenable, for He was able to authentically interpret the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the Old, it is true, but He also did so in the New ; after all, He ultimately inspired both. Furthermore, Jesus Himself often had to elaborate upon His own teachings owing to confusions or questions presented in the Gospels, which would indeed be Him interpreting the New Testament.

Pax,
Tim
 
How do Protestants translate this passage from Matthew 16?
17 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ: μακάριος εἶ, Σίμων Βαριωνᾶ, ὅτι σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα οὐκ ἀπεκάλυψέν σοι ἀλλ’ ὁ πατήρ μου ὁ ἐν τοῖς] οὐρανοῖς. 18 κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς. 19 δώσω σοι τὰς κλεῖδας τῆς βασιλείας τῶν οὐρανῶν, καὶ ὃ ἐὰν δήσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς, καὶ ὃ ἐὰν λύσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται λελυμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.
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17 Respondens autem Jesus, dixit ei : Beatus es Simon Bar Jona : quia caro et sanguis non revelavit tibi, sed Pater meus, qui in cælis est. 18 Et ego dico tibi, quia tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram ædificabo Ecclesiam meam, et portæ inferi non prævalebunt adversus eam. 19 Et tibi dabo claves regni cælorum. Et quodcumque ligaveris super terram, erit ligatum et in cælis : et quodcumque solveris super terram, erit solutum et in cælis.
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17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
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Timothy17 said:
…after all, He ultimately inspired both. Furthermore, Jesus Himself often had to elaborate upon His own teachings owing to confusions or questions presented in the Gospels, which would indeed be Him interpreting the New Testament.
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No, this is not an equivalent. Jesus made commentary and offered teachings. This is not the equivalent of “interpreting the Bible,” nor is Biblical exegesis the same as making oneself one’s own “Jesus.” That is absurd, or no Christians would ever attempt to make commentary on scripture for the blasphemy/sacrilege it would automatically entail.

The comment made was just a lazy smear of Protestants. Of the ilk of “They just think that they are God himself.” Or “Protestants can have no morals because they do not believe in the infallible truths of the CC.” This kind of claptrap.
 
larkin31 said:
Schools in the US are not responsible for Catholic education. Catholics in churches and in homes are responsible for this.

Just where (on what topics) do you think that Catholic parents are failing?
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What do you think a parochial school is for?
Please note, in the US and Canada Catholic schools seem to be better than the secular schools
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
What do you think a parochial school is for?
Please note, in the US and Canada Catholic schools seem to be better than the secular schools
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Parochial schools fall under “churches.” I teach at a private school. I am aware of educational statistics, etc. That is irrelevant to this thread.
 
larkin31 said:
That’s not what this means, and it is not what was claimed. The claim made was that Protestants make themselves into their own Pope and Jesus. This is an incorrect claim, and a too-common misrepresentation of Protestants by Catholics.
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“Accept Jesus as my personal savior” is not that far from “worship their own personal Jesus”.

The poster didn’t say “make themselves Jesus”. All I am saying is I believe the former oft-heard slogan provides the impetus for the latter characterization, or if you prefer, mis-characterization.
 
JHow said:
“Accept Jesus as my personal savior” is not that far from “worship their own personal Jesus”.

The poster didn’t say “make themselves Jesus”. All I am saying is I believe the former oft-heard slogan provides the impetus for the latter characterization, or if you prefer, mis-characterization.
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The difference in the two statements is enormous in terms of theology. In wording, it is only one word; in meaning, it is a great divide. Shall we look at the Bible and discuss the amount of difference in single word changes like this?
 
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