Protestantization of U.S. Catholicism

[larkin31]

This twisting is not working anymore, Larkin31. You’ve used it too many times. :coffeeread:

The fact is that too many Catholics & Protestants have turned God into a Grandfatherly old man, that pats our head when we sin & says “Don’t worry about it, I UNDERSTAND, I am COMPASSIONATE & there is no Hell. I nice guy like me wouldn’t have a hell around.”

This is not about the Pope, nor especially about pastors, both Protestant & Catholic. This is about US. If a Catholic priest or a Protestant Minister were to give a few sermons about sin & hell… as both were taught in the NT., how many parishioners would find a new “home”.

I don’t know.

Much of preaching about Hell is speculative, anyway. Priests are leery of speaking directly for what God and/or Jesus would decide for parishioners in that regard.

But this is a different topic, and, of course, some Protestants are VERY hell-focused.

 

[larkin31]

Protestantism establishes its own (read : personalized) churches, doctrines and beliefs.

The RCC establishes its own churches, doctrines, and beliefs, too.

The precedence of which gives license to all to do the same.

“Protestantism” is not a entity or organization or hierarchy or single church. “Protestantism” does not control anything, nor does it exist in any way except as an idea. It is a false analogy to compare it to the CC.

This is exactly what differentiates it from Catholicism

Well, only most vaguely. See my point above. There are several major Protestant denominational organizations that do not simply permit members to break off and establish ANOTHER church within the organization. There is a process that must be followed, and the state, regional, and national hierarchy makes the final determination as to whether the new church will receive denominational membership. You are probably summarizing only from the most loosely connected of churches with no real national hierarchy and structure that can hang a shingle on their door. That is a different situation. Catholics, of course, are just as free to leave and open a church of their own. They just won’t get recognition from their former denomination. Same is true for many many Protestant denominations.

If you defend and justify your own rebellion then what grounds do you have to restrict the same in your own children ? That is the height of hypocrisy

"What “rebellion”? And who is restricting anything? See my point above.

This is not my prejudice. I noticed this before I chose to convert to Catholicism. If you can script together enough Scripture passages, for example, to justify your own beliefs in some particular way or system of doing things (as opposed to the teaching of your congregation), then you can justify seperating yourself from a congregation or go further and establish your own, for example. If something doesn’t seem right to you, or if you believe things ought to be done differently, then that fact alone suffices to be a sufficient cataclyst for denial, disobedience or change

Sure. Same is true of Catholics. But this does not mean that your denomination will sanction you.

We don’t have to look hard to see this happening in even more traditional, mainline and mainstream Protestant congregations, to a point where they have even brazenly discarded sola scriptura by going against the perfectly clear commandments of scripture (I am thinking here of the acceptance (as opposed to the tolerance) of homosexuality).

Which mainline denominations have had churches begun and approved on new denominational values without review and debate?

 

[savrx]

There is much Catholic dogma produced by other persons that the Pope never comments on. He is the highest authority, but he does not make all dogma.

False. Dogma’s are infallibly defined teachings, and since the Pope alone teaches infallibly (within the defined limits), your statement is incorrect.

 

[ProVobis]

Here’s an interesting quote from Dom Prosper Gueranger, founder of the Benedictine Congregation of France and first abbot of Solesmes after the French revolution,

“Hatred for the Latin language is inborn in the hearts of all the enemies of Rome. They recognize it as the bond among Catholics throughout the universe, as the arsenal of orthodoxy against all the subtleties of the sectarian spirit. . . . The spirit of rebellion which drives them to confide the universal prayer to the idiom of each people, of each province, of each century, has for the rest produced its fruits, and the reformed themselves constantly perceive that the Catholic people, in spite of their Latin prayers, relish better and accomplish with more zeal the duties of the cult than most do the Protestant people. At every hour of the day, divine worship takes place in Catholic churches. The faithful Catholic, who assists, leaves his mother tongue at the door. Apart form the sermons, he hears nothing but mysterious words which, even so, are not heard in the most solemn moment of the Canon of the Mass. Nevertheless, this mystery charms him in such a way that he is not jealous of the lot of the Protestant, even though the ear of the latter doesn’t hear a single sound without perceiving its meaning .… . . . We must admit it is a master blow of Protestantism to have declared war on the sacred language. If it should ever succeed in ever destroying it, it would be well on the way to victory. Exposed to profane gaze, like a virgin who has been violated, from that moment on the Liturgy has lost much of its sacred character, and very soon people find that it is not worthwhile putting aside one’s work or pleasure in order to go and listen to what is being said in the way one speaks on the marketplace. . . .”

catholicapologetics.info/languages/why/latin.htm

 

[BKulash_eski]

This could be due to the amount of church closures. Parishoners do not want to see their
church close, I am guessing that for the most part due to the lack of attendance, so they try to get other Catholics to become members of their church. My suggestion is to start asking your family members to attend mass with you. Chrismation is not the end of our
obligation. If you have children recomend that they ask their friends to attend. I feel the tabernacle call me back after having not been devout as I would like.

 

[white_sheep]

I’m an OF Catholic but I think that Catholic churches should look like Catholic churches and not have hippie music.

 

[CradleCath]

Bishop Finn is one of my heroes. Orthodox, outspoken in defense of the faith and of life, and a friend of the Traditional Latin Mass. Plus, I understand he canned the entire chancery staff when he started as bishop and shut down a big lay “ministry” education operation.

Yes, he did & it was a JOY to see. Our diocese has been run, for four decades, by the laity…
you know…
the Parish Pastoral Associates
Directors of Religious Education (DRE’s they like to call themselves)
Liturgists
Hospital Chaplains
Spiritual Directors
Diocesan Agency Directors
Parish Business Administrators etc., etc., ETC.

They hung around the diocesan offices like the political “hangers on” hung around Jim Curley (if you’ve read The Last Hurrah, you’ll know what I mean).

Cover story – Remaking a diocese
"Finn, 53, a priest of the St. Louis archdiocese and a member of the conservative Opus Dei movement, was named coadjutor of the Kansas City-St. Joseph diocese in March 2004. The diocese comprises 130,000 Catholics in 27 countries of northwest Missouri. He succeeded Bishop Raymond Boland as ordinary on May 24, 2005. Within a week of his appointment he:

Dismissed the chancellor, a layman with 21 years of experience in the diocese, and the vice chancellor, a religious woman stationed in the diocese for nearly 40 years and the chief of pastoral planning for the diocese since 1990, and replaced them with a priest chancellor.
Cancelled the diocese’s nationally renowned lay formation programs and a master’s degree program in pastoral ministry.
Cut in half the budget of the Center for Pastoral Life and Ministry, effectively forcing the almost immediate resignation of half the seven-member team. Within 10 months all seven would be gone and the center shuttered.
Ordered a “zero-based study” of adult catechesis in the diocese and appointed as vice chancellor to oversee adult catechesis, lay formation and the catechesis study a layman with no formal training in theology or religious studies.
Ordered the editor of the diocesan newspaper to immediately cease publishing columns by Notre Dame theologian Fr. Richard McBrien.
Announced that he would review all front page stories, opinion pieces, columns and editorials before publication."

This article is from the National Catholic Reporter (or National Catholic Distorter, as I like to call it.

natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006b/051206/051206a.php

Just to show you how much the Catholics in our area have been affected, I’ll tell you about a BIG disappointment I had today. I was brought up before Vatican II, spending 12 yrs. in an Catholic educational system that was second to none, scholastically the education was superior & my catechesis was excellent. Today, I met with some of the gals who’d had been through the same system & had attended the same Academy that I had… which was run by the Madames of the Sacred Heart.

Almost ALL of them were EEM’s, Benedictine Oblates, DRE’s & held one or the other of the various “Lay Ministry Titles” in their parishes. I was shocked to find out that 3/4ths of them are PRO-CHOICE. Of course, they aren’t “pro-abortion” as they explained to me…just Pro-Choice. Two of them, who called themselves "PRO-CHOICE were discussing becoming Spiritual Directors.

Sorry about this long post, but I’m almost sick about what happened today. These women were taught WELL, they were brought up by parents who sacrificed to give them a good, Catholic education & most of us are college graduates (several attended Catholic Universities) who should be able to discern right from wrong…yet they had succumbed to the secularism that has invaded our diocese for 4 decades. Bishop Finn has arrived just in time. (though the “Catholics” I met with today, don’t agree). :sad_yes:

Me?? I’ll stick with my behind the scenes work at our Food Kitchen & my volunteering (answering phones & stuffing envelopes) for the Mo. Right To Life Association.

 

[Victorious]

I kinda got the impression, from that excerpt from the National Catholic Fishwrap, like they had a problem with Bishop Finn’s reforms. However, it made *me *ask: has the Bish’ got a twin brother?

 

[Purple_Junebug]

The things that drive me BATTY about Catholicism around here are:

holding hands during the Our Father
communion in the hand
Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist trying to “bless” my kids!
kumbaya music
Spanishy music–everything has to have Spanish words in it…sigh

Why does all this stuff bother you? I agree some churches have music that is more “Christian rock style” than something peaceful and reverent that I want to hear in church. But other than that, I find it very comforting when someone I don’t really know wants to hold hands during the Our Father, it is like we are one big family, and the church doesn’t say that we shouldn’t hold hands during the Our Father. Also, communion in the hand or the mouth are both fine, as long as they are both done reverently, I always encourage people who are not able to recieve communion to go up and get blessed, it’s better than just sitting there. And hey, God speaks every language and if you live in a place with lots of spanish-speaking people like I do, it is to be expected that people want to worship in their native tongue. I don’t mean to diss you, but these are not real issues in the church and instead we should focus on getting people to go to mass, not criticising it

 

[Victorious]

Why does all this stuff bother you? I agree some churches have music that is more “Christian rock style” than something peaceful and reverent that I want to hear in church. But other than that, I find it very comforting when someone I don’t really know wants to hold hands during the Our Father, it is like we are one big family, and the church doesn’t say that we shouldn’t hold hands during the Our Father. Also, communion in the hand or the mouth are both fine, as long as they are both done reverently, I always encourage people who are not able to recieve communion to go up and get blessed, it’s better than just sitting there. And hey, God speaks every language and if you live in a place with lots of spanish-speaking people like I do, it is to be expected that people want to worship in their native tongue. I don’t mean to diss you, but these are not real issues in the church and instead we should focus on getting people to go to mass, not criticising it

Actually, these are real issues. Our Catholic identity is important, for without it, we cannot hope to carry out our commission to go out and make disciples of all the nations. Our unity as Catholics, of which the Latin language is a sign, is important. How we worship is of primary importance, because it shapes what we believe; and what we believe shapes our lives. The Mass and Calvary are identical. In a mystical manner, we really are at the foot of the Cross during the Holy Sacrifice at the altar. We are as much there as the Blessed Virgin and St. John and Mary Magdalene. And we are there to give God the worship that is His due; to thank Him for the benefits He bestows on us; and to ask Him to give us what we need. We would not tolerate two-thirds of what goes on in so many churches if we really understood what is really happening at Mass, and why we are there.

And you want to know something strange? When we orient ourselves vertically at Mass, instead of horizontally, and give first priority to the worship that is due to God, instead of focusing on ourselves and our neighbors and all the goofy ice-breaking activities, all the community and one-big-family stuff takes care of itself. We are all one in our common purpose and focus on God; one with the saints in heaven and the souls in Purgatory; and one especially in Holy Communion. This is a taste of the Communion of Saints.

 

[ProVobis]

Why does all this stuff bother you? I agree some churches have music that is more “Christian rock style” than something peaceful and reverent that I want to hear in church. But other than that, I find it very comforting when someone I don’t really know wants to hold hands during the Our Father, it is like we are one big family, and the church doesn’t say that we shouldn’t hold hands during the Our Father. Also, communion in the hand or the mouth are both fine, as long as they are both done reverently, I always encourage people who are not able to recieve communion to go up and get blessed, it’s better than just sitting there. And hey, God speaks every language and if you live in a place with lots of spanish-speaking people like I do, it is to be expected that people want to worship in their native tongue. I don’t mean to diss you, but these are not real issues in the church and instead we should focus on getting people to go to mass, not criticising it

Victorious, you put it very nicely.

I think the Vatican II documents on ecumenism have been misinterpreted in many respects. While Protestants are recognized as “brothers,” the documents certainly did not intend for Catholics to attempt to lose their identity either. After all, each Protestant denominator has some identifying feature, does it not? Things like all-male priesthood, confession, Latin, Friday meat abstinence, Transubstantiation, and points PJ addresses were always among those which gave Catholics some identity and unity. And they do make a difference as far as common worship is concerned, because, while nice to have big numbers going to a particular Mass there is also an exclusion of many. CINO just doesn’t cut it for many but this plus the growing number of ex-Catholics is the world we find today.

 

[CradleCath]

Actually, these are real issues. Our Catholic identity is important, for without it, we cannot hope to carry out our commission to go out and make disciples of all the nations. Our unity as Catholics, of which the Latin language is a sign, is important. How we worship is of primary importance, because it shapes what we believe; and what we believe shapes our lives. ** The Mass and Calvary are identical**. In a mystical manner, we really are at the foot of the Cross during the Holy Sacrifice at the altar. We are as much there as the Blessed Virgin and St. John and Mary Magdalene. And we are there to give God the worship that is His due; to thank Him for the benefits He bestows on us; and to ask Him to give us what we need. We would not tolerate two-thirds of what goes on in so many churches if we really understood what is really happening at Mass, and why we are there.

And you want to know something strange? When we orient ourselves vertically at Mass, instead of horizontally, and give first priority to the worship that is due to God, instead of focusing on ourselves and our neighbors and all the goofy ice-breaking activities, all the community and one-big-family stuff takes care of itself. ** We are all one in our common purpose and focus on God; one with the saints in heaven and the souls in Purgatory; and one especially in Holy Communion. This is a taste of the Communion of Saints**.

WOW!! This is one of the best posts that I’ve ever read in this forum. Thank you!!! I don’t know if you have the book, “Calvary & the Mass”, by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen…but you would LOVE it. An excerpt from the prologue:

"Picture then the High Priest Christ leaving the sacristy of heaven for the altar of Calvary. He has already put on the vestment of our human nature, the maniple of our suffering, the stole of priesthood, the chasuble of the Cross. Calvary is His cathedral; the rock of Calvary is the Altar Stone; the sun turning to red is His sanctuary lamp; Mary and John are the living side altars; the host is His body; the wine is His blood. He is upright as Priest, yet He is prostate as Victim. His Mass is about to begin.”

cantius.org/go/webstore/product/calvary_and_the_mass/

 

[Victorious]

"Picture then the High Priest Christ leaving the sacristy of heaven for the altar of Calvary. He has already put on the vestment of our human nature, the maniple of our suffering, the stole of priesthood, the chasuble of the Cross. Calvary is His cathedral; the rock of Calvary is the Altar Stone; the sun turning to red is His sanctuary lamp; Mary and John are the living side altars; the host is His body; the wine is His blood. He is upright as Priest, yet He is prostate as Victim. His Mass is about to begin.”%between%

Thank you for this. As usual, Sheen pretty much says it all!

 

[Love_the_Lorax]

Victorious, that was beautifully stated! Thank you! I agree completely… these are real issues. The Holy Mass is not just a social gathering, not just something on our to-do lists.

Actually, these are real issues. Our Catholic identity is important, for without it, we cannot hope to carry out our commission to go out and make disciples of all the nations. Our unity as Catholics, of which the Latin language is a sign, is important. How we worship is of primary importance, because it shapes what we believe; and what we believe shapes our lives. The Mass and Calvary are identical. In a mystical manner, we really are at the foot of the Cross during the Holy Sacrifice at the altar. We are as much there as the Blessed Virgin and St. John and Mary Magdalene. And we are there to give God the worship that is His due; to thank Him for the benefits He bestows on us; and to ask Him to give us what we need. We would not tolerate two-thirds of what goes on in so many churches if we really understood what is really happening at Mass, and why we are there.

And you want to know something strange? When we orient ourselves vertically at Mass, instead of horizontally, and give first priority to the worship that is due to God, instead of focusing on ourselves and our neighbors and all the goofy ice-breaking activities, all the community and one-big-family stuff takes care of itself. We are all one in our common purpose and focus on God; one with the saints in heaven and the souls in Purgatory; and one especially in Holy Communion. This is a taste of the Communion of Saints.

 

[kentuckyliz]

If you don’t want to hold hands for the Our Father, don’t.

Sneeze or wipe your nose right before someone would normally reach for your hand.

 

[Bianchi_Roadie]

I was Protestant for over 40 years, and have been Catholic for almost 2 years now, and from what I see, the issue is with lukewarm, hot and cold Catholics, just like I saw in the Protestant church. Many cradle Catholics do not realize the richness and greatness of the Church, and just attend Mass out of obligation and treat it like someplace to be for an hour. As one who came from outside the Church, I stand in disbelief when Catholics do not appreciate what they have, and that is the fullness of truth. The degree of faithful living happens in the Catholic and Protestant church, but we who have the fullness of truth need to be more vigilant in our faithful living, and let the petty disagreements fall by the wayside.

This is well said, I could not agree more. Altough I was baptized as Catholic as a toddler, I was raised a protestant and had been for 40+years as well. I find it disconcerting when persons do not realize the gift we have in the mass.

 

[CradleCath]

This is well said, I could not agree more. Altough I was baptized as Catholic as a toddler, I was raised a protestant and had been for 40+years as well. I find it disconcerting when persons do not realize the gift we have in the mass.

You made me think & that’s always good!!
I have been a Catholic since birth & raised as one. I’ve always appreciated that fact & felt underserving of this gift. You don’t know how many times I’ve felt so blessed to be born a Catholic, the same goes for people like you & converts like my Mother & Mother-in-law. For some reason, God led you back here. It’s mind-blowing when you realize how many other Churches there are.

However, I wonder if some of my generation didn’t just take our beautiful Latin Mass for granted & by doing so, lost it for a while. If it WAS a wake-up call, & I’m not saying I’m sure about that, but I’ll NEVER take the Latin Mass for granted again.

 

[Cantor4JMJ]

My own take on it all, as a convert, is that Vatican II was wonderful - a great gift to the Church - and then… and then came people with their own agendas who took Vatican II as an excuse, a forced justification, for their own ideas of what liturgy, doctrine, morality, and everything else should be like. (i.e. removing altar railings, statues, artwork - mocking devotions to Our Lady)

It’s only now, finally, that it seems that the Church is slowly getting back to the original intent of Vatican II.

Music - you have good insight there. I have the documents here and everything I have read has been beautiful and very living of the Church. The reform of the reform is what is happening now and the free-for-all-anything-goes-because-God-loves-us Modernist crowd is mad and doing their best to fight back.

 

[georgewithfaith]

Dave,

Whether you realize it or not, we're in a war to end all wars.  Have been for quite a while.  This war, though, is far more poignant than all the other wars we have seen through the centuries combined.  This war isn't between flesh and blood, but between principalities and powers, the powers of evil vs. the powers of God.  

The Church has been under attack since it started, but most especially now. Satan has been given a long leash and has done much damage, not just from attacking the Church from the outside, but also from the inside.

Within the last century or so, we have been attacked from three main groups:  Marxists (Communists, mostly), Masons, and the Modernists.  The first two groups have attacked the Church from without; the last group from within.  Many of our priests and bishops have fallen for the heresy of Modernism.  They do the most damage.  That's why most Catholics in our country and Western affluent society have about a first or second grade understanding of their Catholic faith, i.e., they don't know their faith.  That's why a majority of Catholics in this country vote for pro-abortion candidates, support same-sex marriage as "okay," practice artificial birth control, don't attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days regularly, etc.

I agree with you completely and your reply was well written and hits the central nerve of what is wrong with the world today and states the truth. Many people will vehemently disagree with what you wrote probably because it is the truth.

Pope Leo XIII had a vision of the future after saying Mass one day and it relates directly to what you wrote:

wjpbr.com/leoxiii.html

 

[Victorious]

Pope Leo XIII had a vision of the future after saying Mass one day and it relates directly to what you wrote:

wjpbr.com/leoxiii.html

Ummm…this website says, in essence, that John Paul II, who is about to be beatified, was a heretic; and if you go to the home page, you will find an article about how the bishops of today are not true bishops.

Incidentally, the St. Michael Prayer is still said. Every Low Mass I have attended has been followed by the three Hail Marys, the Hail Holy Queen and the St. Michael Prayer.