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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I saw your post.
My statement was more specific than yours:
There is unity among faithful Catholics on matters of faith and morals.
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My statement was more specific than yours:
There is unity among faithful Catholics on matters of faith and morals.
P
PJM
Guest
Anna my friend,
It is historically proveable that the Bible was, is, and remains a Catholic Book. assembled by Catholics, the NT written by Catholics for Cathoics. History and logic affirm that there were no other Christian Churches when the Bible was written in full. Because there was only one Church at the time [The present day Catholic Church] one can KNOW that it was written speciffically, and Inspired by God, for instruction of Catholics.
Everything in the Catholic catechism conforms to the right understanding of the Bible. Please review 2 Cor. 13: 8, Jn. 14: 16-17, Jn. 16: 12-15, Jn. 17: 14-17, 2 Cor. 4:2-3, 1 Thess.1:5.
Christ Himself is personally guarenteeing is complete and total truth! [John 17: 14-17]
Christ Himself says so. That’s good enough for me and “us C:thumbsup:atholics”
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Non_Serviam
Guest
And I responded to your specificity. In your opinion, which of the catholics posting on that thread is unfaithful?
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Any Catholic who rejects the doctrinal teaching of the magisterium is unfaithful.And I responded to your specificity. In your opinion, which of the catholics posting on that thread is unfaithful?
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Non_Serviam
Guest
Hmm, your taste for specificity seems to have waned when presented with a concrete example disproving your thesis.
All posters claim loyalty to the Magisterium and all cite the Magisterium as the source of their beliefs. Yet there is no unity. None of them reject anything written by the Magisterium, they all reinterpret the texts that don’t support their belief in light of the texts that do support their belief. So we have faithful, yet not untied on a matter of faith and morals.
As stated earlier, catholics believe what they think the magisterium teaches, this is clearly self-interpretation, no different from what PJM suggests about Protestants.
Anyone else want to disprove this?
S
sckcd
Guest
If self interpretation is such a big deal then why are we even allowed to have Bibles? God has given us his word to read and study. And He sent the Holy Spirit to help us.
I think most Christians, with the help of the HS, are capable of reading the Bible effectively and interpreting most of it. Why are you asking (in your OP) this of Protestants? Do you think there are not Catholics who interpret the Bible on their own sometimes? If not, then why even own a Bible?
I think most Christians, with the help of the HS, are capable of reading the Bible effectively and interpreting most of it. Why are you asking (in your OP) this of Protestants? Do you think there are not Catholics who interpret the Bible on their own sometimes? If not, then why even own a Bible?
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I was very specific. If you reject the teaching of the magesterium on matters of faith and morals then you are unfaithful to the Church.
There is unity among faithful Catholics.
There is no unity among the unfaithful adherents of any group.
But, there is disunity among faithful protestants.
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Dokimas
Guest
We shouldn’t privately interpret the Bible, whether we are an individual or a whole church.
2 Peter 1:
19 ¶ And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
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Non_Serviam
Guest
Sorry, clicking your ruby slippers together and chanting your glib platitude over and over doesn’t change the fact that it is wrong.
Go read the thread and see that the participants are all loyal catholics and all followed the teachings of the Magisterium to come to their understandings on what the church teaches about the inerrancy of the scriptures, a point of dogma.
Unfortunately, the teachings of the Magisterium led these faithful catholics in different directions, so there is no unity among them regarding that dogma. This contradicts the cliche you’ve been repeating over and over.
Now are you going to offer your ***opinion ***as to who is faithful and unfaithful among those posters or will you take off the ruby slippers and rose-coloured glasses and see that catholics self-interpret the Magisterium the same way that PJM has suggested that protestants self-interpret scripture.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
As a Christian in the Protestant sector, I believe the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of Scripture.
I think Catholics probably see “self interpretation of the Bible” by Protestants, in a similar way that Protestants see the Catechism as self interpretation of the Bible by Catholics.
It just depends on your perspective.
Come on Chesterton:
Really? You really believe there is no unity among faithful Protestants?Granted there are different beliefs within Protestant religions; but that does not mean there is no unity and no agreement. That is an illogical conclusion.
When Protestants notice Catholics disagreements; we hear about the Magisterium; and how Catholics agree on “matters of faith and morals”; and how Catholics are allowed to disagree on other issues. So, disagreements do exist within Catholicism.
Even in the short time I have been on the forums, I have found a surprising number of variations among Catholic beliefs. So, how is that not Catholics “interpreting” Scripture?
As I said in a previous post, the Church Fathers did not agree on everything, including salvation. Origen is a good example. He taught that all would be saved, even Satan. At one point, he was considered a heretic.
Now, Origen is viewed with more favor by the Catholic Church.I’ve had a discussion, with a Catholic Member on another Thread–who actually disagrees with a particular teaching of Pope John Paul II, on the subject of hell. Does that mean he is not a “faithful” Catholic? He must be interpreting Scripture, otherwise, how could he disagree?—Unless he is reading the variants among the ECFs and picking the one that sounds like it holds more truth than the words of Pope John Paul II.
It is still all a matter of perspective.
Anna
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4EverHis
Guest
well because then everyone would have their own interpretation
in the early Church there were heresies that people claimed were “supported” by the Bible…and in fact, there are verses that seemingly suggest them… so how do we know how to interpret Scripture?
the Bible itself tells us this when it says that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
You are ignoring the obvious for some reason.
Faithful catholics follow the teachings of the Church.
Protestants don’t have a magesterium.
If you can be more specific as to what your confusion is I’m sure I can help you understand.
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Radical
Guest
And click, click, click go those ruby slippers yet again
CR, what you should be saying is that “faithful” catholics follow their personal interpretation of the teachings of the Catholic Church as found in its catechism and elsewhere…but you seem blind to that reality.Hello Non Serviam, sorry to butt in, IMHO you have done a wonderful job of explaining the problem and one would have to be wilfully blind in order not to see it. I guess their problem would be solved if the magesterium gave private audiences to clarify the various interpretations as they arise. Cheers.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I’ll ask you for some specifics as well.And click, click, click go those ruby slippers yet again
Hello Non Serviam, sorry to butt in, IMHO you have done a wonderful job of explaining the problem and one would have to be wilfully blind in order not to see it. I guess their problem would be solved if the magesterium gave private audiences to clarify the various interpretations as they arise. Cheers.
Do you have something in mind?
I’ll provide some:
Abortion, gay marriage, real presence in the Eucharist, infant baptism, confession to a priest, etc.
Do we know what the Catholic position on these issues is?
How about the protestant position?
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Non_Serviam
Guest
I’ve given you a specific multiple times already: go to this thread, read the posts and tell me which catholic posters are the unfaithful ones in your opinion. Why do you keep dodging this?
Thank you-I was having the same thought that to make this idea work, all catholics would need access to 1-800-MAGISTERIUM. Yet even then, they’d still be forming their own understanding of what was said during the conversation.And click, click, click go those ruby slippers yet again
Hello Non Serviam, sorry to butt in, IMHO you have done a wonderful job of explaining the problem and one would have to be wilfully blind in order not to see it. I guess their problem would be solved if the magesterium gave private audiences to clarify the various interpretations as they arise. Cheers.
You notice how no other catholics seem to want a piece of this particular discussion?
Yes, see the above, don’t try to bait and switch until you’ve responded to the question that was posed to you. Identify the unfaithful catholics or admit that faithful catholics can study the magisterial writings and end up coming to different understandings of matters of faith and morals.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I’ve given you specifics. You have given me generalities.
Do you have something in mind? If so, please state it specifically.
I’ll provide some specifics for you:
Abortion, gay marriage, real presence in the Eucharist, infant baptism, confession to a priest, etc.
Do we know what the Catholic position on these issues is?
How about the protestant position?
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Non_Serviam
Guest
Just as soon as you answer my question-now stop trying to dodge it. I’ll even repeat it for you:
I’ve given you a specific multiple times already: go to this thread, read the posts and tell me which catholic posters are the unfaithful ones in your opinion.
You made the claim that “There is unity among faithful Catholics on matters of faith and morals.” Now defend that claim by answering my question above or acknowledge that it is indefensible. In other words, put up or shut up.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I can’t tell you who is unfaithful.
You are avoiding the issues.
Catholics who are faithful submit to the magesterium.
Unfaithful Catholics reject the teachings of the Church.
I have given you some examples of specific issues. You and I can both find what the position of the Catholic Church is on these issues. There is no protestant position on these issues because protestants interpret scripture for themselves.
Feel free to make your point. I have no idea what you want me to do with that thread.
R
Roy5
Guest
Individual Interpretation of Scripture
Code:
As a Protestant, I treasure the freedom I have to interpret scripture myself. One of my favorite experiences over the years has been to participate in a Bible Study and hear members of the group share their differing interpretations of specific verses of scripture. There was no concept of 'heresy', and we welcomed fresh interpretations as helpful.
We've paid a heavy price for this freedom. Yes, we have many different denominations that may have been established because of this or that variation of understanding. I'm not nearly as troubled by that as I would be if I had to toe an official line from above. Some will call it ego, of course, but over the years I have changed my interpretation of certain passages. For example, I went through a strong pacifist phase, influenced by the Sermon on the Mount ('Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you...."). I still have a bent toward Christian pacifism, but my position has become modified over the years.
For some of us, Catholicism does some wonderful work among the poor and elsewhere, but we cannot help but feel that centuries ago it brought into Christianity major influences borrowed from Rome. The Pope replaced the emperor, saints replaced the various gods and goddesses, etc. Let each Christian have his or her belief. That's one of the beauties of America.
May God bless every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.
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raderag
Guest
Hi Pat,
I guess the same way Catholic’s interpret their own teaching differently. Anyway, this “me and my own Bible” view is one of the enlightenment more so than that of the reformation. The children of the reformation believe that there is authority besides apostolic authority, but not that there is anything more authoritative than apostolic authority, which is found in scripture alone. Keith Mathison has written some good stuff on this; you might check out the Wesleyan Quadrilateral as well.
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