Protestants and alcohol

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Did you read the article?

If you read this article, you will see that Evangelical Protestants are not likely to “get their priorities straight.”

In my opinion, you (and other Catholics) are insulting Evangelical Protestants by greatly over-simplifying and pooh-poohing their very thought-filled objections to alcohol use by Christians.
I did read your link and I’m sorry, and it is not my intention to be snarky or sarcastic here, but I just don’t see it as “very thought-filled objections to alcohol use by Christians”. It is an appeal to emotions, look at the awful things people who drank did. When it comes down to it, for every one of these terrible stories, there are thousand of stories every hour of every day one never hears. Stories of people having a beer with friends at a BBQ, or bowling, or with co-workers after work. People who enjoy a glass of wine with dinner or, a drink with the neighbors on warm summer evening, no bad outcomes, just people celebrating their little joys and time with each other. Christ produced wine for a celebration do you condemn Him for it, do Evangelicals think He should not have done what He did?
Nor do I see any evidence that Catholics are the “big offenders” here, you will never convince me that all the people drinking in bars, sports arenas, restaurants, homes and backyards are Catholic. Non-Catholics make up 72 percent of the Christians in this country, seems to me that there are a lot of consumers of alcohol among “Protestants”.
 
And yet, not all of those who’ve lost someone to alcohol take the approach that “alcohol is evil.”

But some do. I’m one of those.
Really you believe that Christ intentionally produced an evil to be given to the guests at Cana, wow.
 
The following article goes into detail on the charge the Apostles at Pentecost were drunk with “new wine.”
 
James, I am just going to say this. Cause quite frankly it is has become absurd. You may not think that calling Christ a sinner for turning water into WINE is not a sin, but it is.

WINE is grape juice, and grape juice is NOT WINE. If Christ turned water into Welch’s grape juice, the BIBLE would not have said WINE.

There was no technology that was known to pasteurize grape juice until at least 1869. Period.

You are making up stories and re-writing the the truth as stated by the WORD and confirmed by the CHURCH. If you want to carry on with the LIE as reported by ANTI-CATHOLICS who insist the Church is the whore of Babylon, then perhaps you may need to make a decision.

I would suggest you stop spreading untruths in order to placate your notion that any drinking is a sin.

Proverbs 31:6-7

6 Let beer be for those who are perishing,
wine for those who are in anguish!
7 Let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
 
Me pointing out that it is sinful to try and re-interpret the bible to insinuate that WINE did not mean wine?

I will never post on these boards again. It is a joke.
 
Really you believe that Christ intentionally produced an evil to be given to the guests at Cana, wow.
I believe that times have changed, and what was once an innocent and joyful practice at a God-blessed fellowship has now become twisted.

For some reason, social drinking has become a stepping stone that for too many people, leads to overindulgence and addiction.

Too many people in the U.S. have, for some reason (perhaps genetic?) developed a tendency towards addiction and addictive behaviors.

I don’t know why so many of us in the United States overindulge and develop addictive personality traits. But it’s reality, and it is destroying too many of us.

Several people in this thread have brought up the issue of food. Look around today, and see how many people and children are chubby, fat, or obese. Drive by a high school and study the students as they walk around campus–many of them are so very fat! And then look at a high school yearbook from the 1970s or earlier–you will see that NO ONE is fat!

For some reason–and I don’t know what that reason is–people in the U.S. have become unable to eat normally. Instead, we have constant cravings, and on a regular basis, many of us give in to those cravings and devour far more than we need, to the point where we are slowly but surely killing ourselves.

It’s not just food. There is a very sad thread on CAF (family life section) about a husband who is addicted to video games.

For many people, especially men, sex has become a monkey on their back, something that they can’t stop thinking about or indulging in.

Addictive shopping has destroyed the banks accounts of many people, especially women.

Gambling is another weakness that destroys the lives of many. One of the most liberal pastors in our city (fights for abortion rights, gay rights, etc.) regularly writes and gives speeches against legalized gambling (casinos, etc). This man works with the poor, and he has seen first-hand the devastation that happens when people become addicted to gambling, and he believes that no one should have access to a vice that is so potentially-addicting.

In spite of all the “Just Say No” and other campaigns, drug addiction is worse than ever in the U.S.

Heavens above, even EXERCISE has become addictive for some people!

And of course, there are all of those people who are addicted to the internet.

I don’t know why so many people in the U.S. are unable to simply enjoy simple pleasures and instead become addicted to them! I don’t know the answer. That’s probably what this thread should be about.

But in the meantime, while we are looking for the answer to the questions about why we become addicted, we need to be really really super careful and guard our souls AND help others to guard their souls.

And then there’s another issue–overindulgence. This isn’t the same as addiction, but it is probably even more prevalent in the U.S.

We constantly treat ourselves to whatever we like.

We constantly overindulge in food! I am the most guilty person in the U.S. at this–I routinely stop at McDonald’s after work for an ice cream cone (170 cals). Or my husband and I will buy chips and dip to eat while we’re sitting on our cans watching a few hours of television.

We overeat, we overspend, we oversleep, we over-recreate–some people even over-church (mainly Evangelical Protestants, who are generally at church almost every day or evening).

Overindulgence in the U.S. is a way of life!

zaffiroborant, that’s why I say that Jesus and the disciples and the wedding at Cana were THEN. We do not live THEN. We live NOW, in an era where addictive personalities seem to be epidemic and overindulgence and “living large” is a celebrated industry, not a weakness or a sin.

We need to be a lot more careful than the disciples were back then. We don’t have the social mores and restraints set up that cause people to pause and step back from behaving in harmful ways.

Our laws and customs encourage overindulgence, addiction, and self-centered behaviors. We are “free” in the U.S.–but in the last decade or so, this freedom has gone horribly awry and people are suffering and dying as a result of their inability to just say “no.”

If you can drink or eat or gamble or have sex without become addicted, wonderful. That’s the way we all should be.

But too many of us can’t seem to figure out the balance. For too many people, the opportunity to participate in God’s good creation leads to overindulgence.
 
(continued from last post)

Here’s what I’m hearing on this thread–too bad, so sad, who cares?

I’m hearing many of you say, “Tough luck, weakling. If you can’t control yourself, that’s just too bad, but that doesn’t mean that I have to stop doing something that I find pleasurable.”

OK. I can grant your point.

I certainly don’t think that the entire world should stop drinking soft drinks because I can’t stop myself from drinking 8 or more bottles of the stuff every day (20 oz bottles, and diet soda, but I used to drink regular soda).

I think that casinos should stay open. I see no harm in people sharing a bottle of wine with dinner (although again, even though my BRAIN accepts it, my heart cannot accept it). I think that restaurants should be able to sell anything they wish, no matter how delicious it is and how many calories it has!

But I think that as Christians, we cannot just step back and say, “I have freedom to do as I please, and others should just learn to behave like I do.”

That’s not what the Bible says, and that’s not what the Church teaches. We are supposed to help each other get to heaven.

I’m not sure of the best way that Christians can help each other when it comes to alcohol.

I do think that “abstinence” should be something that local parishes should encourage. This is very much in keeping with Catholic tradition.

Those who addicted to alcohol suffer such devastating effects, and it affects their families, too. Food, gambling, shopping–yes, these are bad addictions, but alcohol is so very very tragic.

I would suggest that those who haven’t seen alcoholism at its worse should consider visiting their local rescue mission, and talk to the managers. They will point out people who used to be prosperous and productive who now sleep under a bridge on a regular basis.

It’s so sad, much sadder than many other addictions. For the sake of the few people who suffer from a tendency to become addicted to alcohol, I think the Church should NOT offer alcohol at any function. Yes, it’s only a few people, but Christ died for those few people too, Surely we can abstain for THEIR sake. Surely, we can forego our own pleasures to help them stay on track and away from something that, for them, is not a “good” thing.
 
I suggest that everyone consider the following links which show that grape juice could be preserved during ancient times and that the use of the term “new wine” at Pentecost did not mean the crowd was accusing the apostles of being drunk:

Preservation of grape juice: biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

Use of the term “new wine” in reference to the apostles:

biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/5.html
I don’t believe that abstinence can be read into the NT or the OT, which would have been perceived as legalistic (Col 2:20 - 2:23). The author is trying to make a quick buck as you’ve got to pay to read his whole book.

Most people abusing alcohol are also addicted to all sorts of other things, like greed, TV, lust, covertousness etc. Catholics should think about putting a prohibition on TV as that is probably a cause of far more sin than drink.

I would concede that churches have a duty to discourage the casual drinking culture amongst many other bad habits and should therefore not serve alcohol at functions. I’ve never even been to a church that does, but then I’ve never set foot in a Catholic church except as a tourist to gaze at the virgin statutes in Poland and Austria, speaking of which, I’ve never seen such pretty young women enshrined in stone, and I’m quite sure Mary wasn’t like that.
 
I believe that times have changed, and what was once an innocent and joyful practice at a God-blessed fellowship has now become twisted.
This seems very judgmental. You don’t know what an individual’s beliefs and practices are in regards to alcohol to make such a general statement. I find it offensive. Having lived in many parts of the USA, I have never seen a person intoxicated at a Church function. Maybe I just haven’t found the place where all the abusers live.
zaffiroborant, that’s why I say that Jesus and the disciples and the wedding at Cana were THEN. We do not live THEN. We live NOW, in an era where addictive personalities seem to be epidemic and overindulgence and “living large” is a celebrated industry, not a weakness or a sin.
Do you have a reference from an Ecumenical Council where I can read about this change?
 
(continued from last post)

Here’s what I’m hearing on this thread–too bad, so sad, who cares?

I’m hearing many of you say, “Tough luck, weakling. If you can’t control yourself, that’s just too bad, but that doesn’t mean that I have to stop doing something that I find pleasurable.”

OK. I can grant your point.

I certainly don’t think that the entire world should stop drinking soft drinks because I can’t stop myself from drinking 8 or more bottles of the stuff every day (20 oz bottles, and diet soda, but I used to drink regular soda).

I think that casinos should stay open. I see no harm in people sharing a bottle of wine with dinner (although again, even though my BRAIN accepts it, my heart cannot accept it). I think that restaurants should be able to sell anything they wish, no matter how delicious it is and how many calories it has!

But I think that as Christians, we cannot just step back and say, “I have freedom to do as I please, and others should just learn to behave like I do.”

That’s not what the Bible says, and that’s not what the Church teaches. We are supposed to help each other get to heaven.

I’m not sure of the best way that Christians can help each other when it comes to alcohol.

I do think that “abstinence” should be something that local parishes should encourage. This is very much in keeping with Catholic tradition.

Those who addicted to alcohol suffer such devastating effects, and it affects their families, too. Food, gambling, shopping–yes, these are bad addictions, but alcohol is so very very tragic.

I would suggest that those who haven’t seen alcoholism at its worse should consider visiting their local rescue mission, and talk to the managers. They will point out people who used to be prosperous and productive who now sleep under a bridge on a regular basis.

It’s so sad, much sadder than many other addictions. For the sake of the few people who suffer from a tendency to become addicted to alcohol, I think the Church should NOT offer alcohol at any function. Yes, it’s only a few people, but Christ died for those few people too, Surely we can abstain for THEIR sake. Surely, we can forego our own pleasures to help them stay on track and away from something that, for them, is not a “good” thing.
Should the church use Welchs and hypoallergenic Saltines for Communion as well?
 
Should the church use Welchs and hypoallergenic Saltines for Communion as well?
The only thing Cat and I are questioning is the wisdom of selling and providing alcoholic beverages at church social gatherings. There have been others in this thread who have suggested they don’t go to church social gatherings because of the sale of alcoholic beverages. I have contrasted that to many Protestant Churches which don’t provide alcohol for a church social gathering. The guy in the cubicle next to mine is a Protestant who loves his beer, but he says his Protestant Church would never consider providing alcohol at a church social function.
 
I suggest that everyone consider the following links which show that grape juice could be preserved during ancient times and that the use of the term “new wine” at Pentecost did not mean the crowd was accusing the apostles of being drunk:

Preservation of grape juice: biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

Use of the term “new wine” in reference to the apostles:

biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/5.html
I wish you would be more careful in your choice of sources. Samuele Bach… is a Seventh Day Adventist. His ecclesial body is as anti-Catholic as your other source. They hate Catholics and call us “the beast”, and the Holy Father “the Who… of Babylon”.

I think that just because someone is anti drink does not always make them a good source.
 
I wish you would be more careful in your choice of sources. Samuele Bach… is a Seventh Day Adventist. His ecclesial body is as anti-Catholic as your other source. They hate Catholics and call us “the beast”, and the Holy Father “the Who… of Babylon”.

I think that just because someone is anti drink does not always make them a good source.
The author is providing a well-researched article. Just because he is a Seventh Day Adventist doesn’t mean we should ignore his research. He studied at the Pontificial Gregorian University and according to his Wikipedia article was awarded a gold medal by Pope Paul VI for the distinction of summa cum laude. Just because he is not Catholic doesn’t make him anti-Catholic.
 
I think we should consider that some individuals have had traumatic experiences with family and friends who drank heavily and often abused them in various ways. Show some consideration and empathy for them, please.

That was what happened with my Southern Baptist grandmother. Her Mother died when she was young, and gran was forced to leave school in the third grade. She had to work legally at the turn of previous century. While her dad and brothers stayed home and drank. She was married at a very young age just to escape. And she detested drinking of any amount.

At one time when I was staying with her after her husband my Grandfather died I went to dinner with a friend and had one drink, one only. But the food was bad and after I got home I was sick from the bad food. Gran would have nothing of it and was convinced that I had drank heavily and got sick for that reason. It took a long time to restablish her trust in me.
 
The only thing Cat and I are questioning is the wisdom of selling and providing alcoholic beverages at church social gatherings. There have been others in this thread who have suggested they don’t go to church social gatherings because of the sale of alcoholic beverages. I have contrasted that to many Protestant Churches which don’t provide alcohol for a church social gathering. The guy in the cubicle next to mine is a Protestant who loves his beer, but he says his Protestant Church would never consider providing alcohol at a church social function.
I don’t care if a church sells beer or not, but the logic being presented is entirely faulty.

If you ever do pilgrimage to Nazareth or Bethlehem, please do buy wines from the Christian families there - they’re entire subsistence is based on selling these products produced by their ancestors from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

Also, there are plenty of protestants that do sell alcoholic beverages:

growingwithgrace.org/component/aceshop/category/35-wine-cheese-social
lca.org.au/lutheran-winemakers-.html
christchurchphoenix.org/ai1ec_event/newcomers-wine-cheese-social-2/?instance_id=
christepiscopalchurch.org/wine-and-cheese-pairings-at-hospitality-social/
htacc.org/wine-cheese-silent-auction/
delawareonline.com/picture-gallery/entertainment/events/2014/05/18/on-the-scene-midatlantic-wine–food-festivals-gospel-jazz-brunch/9260901/

etc
 
Arguing that alcohol should not be provided at Church socials because of the potential risks involved for a small minority (as opposed to arguing against it on theological grounds) is an argument for prohibition. Should pubs, restaurants, supermarkets and off-licences also not sell alcohol as this too presents a risk to a small minority?

I have never been to a Catholic church social where there has been no alcohol available (usually its provided free of charge) and I have also never been to a Catholic church social where there has been any alcohol related trouble.

We’re catholic and our Church doesn’t have a problem with moderate drinking, quite the reverse really. The vast majority of Catholics see moderate drinking as a good thing and long may it continue…
 
I think we should consider that some individuals have had traumatic experiences with family and friends who drank heavily and often abused them in various ways. Show some consideration and empathy for them, please.

That was what happened with my Southern Baptist grandmother. Her Mother died when she was young, and gran was forced to leave school in the third grade. She had to work legally at the turn of previous century. While her dad and brothers stayed home and drank. She was married at a very young age just to escape. And she detested drinking of any amount.

At one time when I was staying with her after her husband my Grandfather died I went to dinner with a friend and had one drink, one only. But the food was bad and after I got home I was sick from the bad food. Gran would have nothing of it and was convinced that I had drank heavily and got sick for that reason. It took a long time to restablish her trust in me.
I can respect this point. Alcohol has deep addiction. One alcoholic can affect several generations of a family. I think alcohol is the only thing you could potentially die of withdrawl from. It is very powerfull to the addict and causes them to lie to everyone they love.

This reality does not mean supplying alcohol for Christian celebrations and festivals is contributing to those who choose to allow alcohol to control their lives! Do individuals who witness a close friend or family member succum to addiction have a responsibility to help them out of the grip of alcohol? Yes, probably. But alcoholics are sneeky. They will find a way to drink undercover no matter what you do. We need to compel them to detest the control they have given alcohol, compel them to seek help, and know that they will always be vulnerable to slipping.

What we saw with the prohibition was an attempt to put a restriction on a pastime activity that is much too deep to impose on a whole society. The only way you can prohibit the free use of something, is if there is intrinsic evil in consuming it. This is not the case with alcohol, so any attempt to banish it will backfire and have counterproductive results. Beer and wine are ancient crafts which have very interesting and deep roots in our human heritage. They have great tradition and trade. Monks have inherited and passed along superior arts of brewing! I say, Amen!!!
 
There is great tradition and trade. Monks have inherited and passed along superior arts of brewing! I say, Amen!!!
Very true! I’m surprised this hasn’t been brought up yet (or maybe it has).

I guess if beer is evil then there are many monastic orders who peddle in evil wares. How many monks have made their living over the centuries providing themselves and the faithful with tasty ale?

Are these monks wrong to profit off of beer?
 
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