Protestants and alcohol

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I agree with my husband. I personally think that if the Catholic Church condemned alcohol use by Christians, we would see a massive exodus of Evangelical Protestants into the Catholic Church.
Would that be because your foresee that the cessation of Catholic drinking would lead to a Catholic reformation of manners and theology, or because you perceive that the main stumbling block for Protestants is the imbibing of drink?

Either way, I don’t believe that you’re correct. For me as a Protestant Radical, the real stumbling blocks with the Catholic church, from a moral point of view, lie in more serious issues such as the emancipation of women within Catholicism as seen in the the recent abolition of the biblical requirement for head-coverings, such as the engagement with apostate politicians by Catholics, who seem to be unconcerned with voting for politicians who owe almost no perceptible allegiance to biblical morals, such as the toleration of homosexuality and homosexuals and others sinners and the failure to excommunicate the immoral etc.

Here in the UK, we have a so-called ‘Catholic’ newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, that is staffed by all manner of social liberals, feminists, homosexuals, people ambivalent to homosexuality, many of whom are Catholics. It is this kind of thing that puts people like me right off Catholicism and makes me think that the real problem is that Catholics really don’t mind if their religion is diluted by politics.
 
Would that be because your foresee that the cessation of Catholic drinking would lead to a Catholic reformation of manners and theology, or because you perceive that the main stumbling block for Protestants is the imbibing of drink?

Either way, I don’t believe that you’re correct. For me as a Protestant Radical, the real stumbling blocks with the Catholic church, from a moral point of view, lie in more serious issues such as the emancipation of women within Catholicism as seen in the the recent abolition of the biblical requirement for head-coverings, such as the engagement with apostate politicians by Catholics, who seem to be unconcerned with voting for politicians who owe almost no perceptible allegiance to biblical morals, such as the toleration of homosexuality and homosexuals and others sinners and the failure to excommunicate the immoral etc.

Here in the UK, we have a so-called ‘Catholic’ newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, that is staffed by all manner of social liberals, feminists, homosexuals, people ambivalent to homosexuality, many of whom are Catholics. It is this kind of thing that puts people like me right off Catholicism and makes me think that the real problem is that Catholics really don’t mind if their religion is diluted by politics.
The article that I posted a link to summarizes quite well Evangelical Protestant repugnance to alcohol use by Christians. I really hope you will read it and gain a better understanding of the Evangelical Catholic objection to alcohol use by Christians.

I don’t know much about the state of Catholicism in other countries. In the U.S., certainly there are liberal Catholics, bishops, and Catholic parachurch organizations.

But from what I have seen, Catholicism in the U.S. upholds the righteous doctrines taught by Christ and His Church from the very beginning of Christianity. I am proud to be a Catholic in the United States–not proud in a “haughty” way, but proud that my Church is truly the Church of Jesus Christ and HIS Word!

Our parish faced down the homosexual agenda and was subjected to a massive outpouring of hatred and scorn from the local community and the media. For ten years, we were blacklisted by a national music organization, and most of the “good” musicians departed from our parish, after first demonstrating visibly their support of the freedom of homosexuals to practice what pleases them.

Yes, we lost people from the parish who decided that supporting homosexuals was more important than obeying Christ.

But we also gained people, including Catholic families who had left the Church decades earlier because they perceived the encroachment of theological and political liberalism. They came back, rejoicing that the Church was standing for righteousness and truth.

My father-in-law has never been pro-Catholic, but because his church (United Methodist) is liberal, and our parish is conservative theologically and politically, he has spent more time in our parish than his church!

Because of my Evangelical Protestant past (47 years), I continue to follow Evangelical news by reading Evangelical magazines and books, and staying in touch with a few Evangelical friends. I have seen an amazing amount of interest in and support for the Catholic Church by Evangelical Protestants.

I truly believe that in the next decade, we could see a huge insurgence of Evangelical Protestants into the Catholic Church, because Evangelical Protestants truly hunger for righteousness, and truly love, trust, and obey Jesus Christ. I believe they will follow Him if He beckons them into the Catholic Church.

But because of their view of alcohol use, I believe that they will become confused if they walk into the Catholic Church and see…alcohol use. I believe they will tell Jesus, “I’m not sure if this is really You or not, and because I believe alcohol use by Christians is a sin, I cannot go where sin is practiced and called ‘right’ and ‘good.’ I will leave this place unless you give me guidance that is unmistakably from the Holy Spirit. If I am wrong, forgive me.”

As I said to another poster, Catholics need to be careful not to minimize or ridicule or scorn Evangelical Protestant objections to alcohol use. Evangelical Protestants are among the most joyful people in the world, and they cannot comprehend why someone who knows Jesus Christ needs or wants to take a drug to be happier. There is a total lack of comprehension or sympathy for alcohol use, and it’s not going to change easily. I have been Catholic for ten years now, and I have seen NOTHING that has changed my mind about alcohol use. On the contrary, I’m even more opposed.
 
I think it is true (in general) that Protestants generally don’t drink alcohol to the same extent as Catholics do. However, that doesn’t mean that we can’t have some fun with those that do as the weekend is now upon us. It has led to a couple of official proclamations. Forgive me if you’ve already heard these before:

– Jewish people do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian faith. Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store.

– Wherever there are four Episcoplians, there’s a ‘fifth’.

Disclaimer: No offense to Baptists or Episcopalians. You can insert several denominations in place of those that were chosen.
 
Another factor may be eucharistic practice favoring if not insisting on wine. What Protestants commune with wine/ chalice?
 
" I was wondering that too. Also, what’d Catholics do during Prohibition?"

no shortage of booze Al Capone was a catholic
 
" I was wondering that too. Also, what’d Catholics do during Prohibition?"

no shortage of booze Al Capone was a catholic
The prohibition laws exempted the Catholic Church so that Eucharistic wine could be made, purchased and used at mass.

The prohibition era is one of he most fascinating areas of American history. It was very, very complicated.

Paul
 
I agree with my husband. I personally think that if the Catholic Church condemned alcohol use by Christians, we would see a massive exodus of Evangelical Protestants into the Catholic Church.
The Church isn’t a political party or a nightclub. As such, I don’t see how it makes any sense to condemn things simply for the sake of expanding membership. That would be the wrong reason.
 
The Church isn’t a political party or a nightclub. As such, I don’t see how it makes any sense to condemn things simply for the sake of expanding membership. That would be the wrong reason.
I’m not talking about “expanding the Church,” and if that’s the impression that you received from my post, forgive my poor writing.

I’m talking about saving souls and getting people to heaven!!

The Catechism makes it clear that salvation comes through the Catholic Church. I believe, as do many other Catholics, that we can’t box God in, and that somehow, He can save those who are not Catholic.

But the surest way to have a hope of heaven is to be Catholic, and we can’t just ignore that and hope that all Protestants will somehow get to heaven.

Besides, it’s not just about “being saved” and “going to heaven,” but also experiencing the most abundant life in Christ here on this earth in this life. Nothing, NOTHING, compares to the joy and wonder of receiving Jesus in Holy Communion.

Finally, it’s about strengthening the Church here on this earth and striving to restore the unity that we once had before the Reformation. As long as we are fractured, we have a harder time bringing about the Kingdom of God “on earth, as it is in heaven.”

Catholic missionaries have been horribly martyred for the sake of evangelizing the world. I find it disturbing that when I suggest giving up alcohol in order to remove a major stumbling block for Evangelical Protestant friends, Catholics protest and pull out quotes (out of context) from saints while ignoring all the rest of the saint’s writings about sacrifice and detachment.
 
I’m talking about saving souls and getting people to heaven!!

Finally, it’s about strengthening the Church here on this earth and striving to restore the unity that we once had before the Reformation. As long as we are fractured, we have a harder time bringing about the Kingdom of God “on earth, as it is in heaven.”

Catholic missionaries have been horribly martyred for the sake of evangelizing the world. I find it disturbing that when I suggest giving up alcohol in order to remove a major stumbling block for Evangelical Protestant friends, Catholics protest and pull out quotes (out of context) from saints while ignoring all the rest of the saint’s writings about sacrifice and detachment.
To Cat: Perhaps this a Bible passage that supports your argument.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 New International Version (NIV)

Paul’s Use of His Freedom
19 “Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings”.

Personally, I agree that drinking alcohol to the point of drunkenness is a stumbling block for many evangelical protestants, including me. After all, what kind of witness is that? If the Catholic who is trying to convince me that Catholicism is the way to go is then getting drunk shortly afterwards and I either witnessed it or found out about it, it would negate or nullify even the most compelling of arguments because he might “talk the talk” but not “walk the walk”, which is very important to most evangelicals. However, I have come to the point in my life after being a teetotaller for most of my life that a glass of wine with a meal is not only enjoyable, but healthy. Just don’t overdo it. 🙂 After all, Jesus turned the water into wine (not soda pop), and Paul even told Timothy to have a glass of wine for his stomach’s sake. Once again, moderation is the key, although if a Christian struggles in this area, they probably shouldn’t drink at all to help themselves and to help be a witness to others. Just my two cents.
 
Proverbs 31:6-7

6 Let beer be for those who are perishing,
wine for those who are in anguish!

7 Let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
 
The article that I posted a link to summarizes quite well Evangelical Protestant repugnance to alcohol use by Christians. I really hope you will read it and gain a better understanding of the Evangelical Catholic objection to alcohol use by Christians.

I don’t know much about the state of Catholicism in other countries. In the U.S., certainly there are liberal Catholics, bishops, and Catholic parachurch organizations.

But from what I have seen, Catholicism in the U.S. upholds the righteous doctrines taught by Christ and His Church from the very beginning of Christianity. I am proud to be a Catholic in the United States–not proud in a “haughty” way, but proud that my Church is truly the Church of Jesus Christ and HIS Word!
Well it’s not for me to judge since I don’t live in the US, but I do hear that the Democrats have a large Catholic following which I have never understood as they don’t care much for enforcing biblical morality.
Cur parish faced down the homosexual agenda and was subjected to a massive outpouring of hatred and scorn from the local community and the media. For ten years, we were blacklisted by a national music organization, and most of the “good” musicians departed from our parish, after first demonstrating visibly their support of the freedom of homosexuals to practice what pleases them.
Yes, we lost people from the parish who decided that supporting homosexuals was more important than obeying Christ.
But we also gained people, including Catholic families who had left the Church decades earlier because they perceived the encroachment of theological and political liberalism. They came back, rejoicing that the Church was standing for righteousness and truth.
My father-in-law has never been pro-Catholic, but because his church (United Methodist) is liberal, and our parish is conservative theologically and politically, he has spent more time in our parish than his church!
I agree that many so-termed protestant churches are much worse than Catholic. I don’t really think that many have any right to call themselves a church of God at all.
Because of my Evangelical Protestant past (47 years), I continue to follow Evangelical news by reading Evangelical magazines and books, and staying in touch with a few Evangelical friends. I have seen an amazing amount of interest in and support for the Catholic Church by Evangelical Protestants.
I truly believe that in the next decade, we could see a huge insurgence of Evangelical Protestants into the Catholic Church, because Evangelical Protestants truly hunger for righteousness, and truly love, trust, and obey Jesus Christ. I believe they will follow Him if He beckons them into the Catholic Church.
I agree that it’s getting very hard now for many protestants to find a biblical church. There are only a few now that are serious about upholding biblical morals - Free Presbyterians, Anabaptists, Brethren etc. Perhaps some more. So I could agree with you that on a strictly comparative basis, Catholics may come out well compared to Protestants. My own standards for a church are however very high, far higher than those of most so-termed Protestants that probably don’t deserve the name.
But because of their view of alcohol use, I believe that they will become confused if they walk into the Catholic Church and see…alcohol use. I believe they will tell Jesus, “I’m not sure if this is really You or not, and because I believe alcohol use by Christians is a sin, I cannot go where sin is practiced and called ‘right’ and ‘good.’ I will leave this place unless you give me guidance that is unmistakably from the Holy Spirit. If I am wrong, forgive me.”
The reality is that drinking alcohol is not sinful, and anyone who judges another just because they have a drink or two is not acting from faith, but out of their own conceit. It’s no business of any church to ban alcohol nor for any Christian to judge another. It’s the abuse of it that is always the issue and what is to be judged - and I don’t drink much myself, hardly at all.
As I said to another poster, Catholics need to be careful not to minimize or ridicule or scorn Evangelical Protestant objections to alcohol use. Evangelical Protestants are among the most joyful people in the world, and they cannot comprehend why someone who knows Jesus Christ needs or wants to take a drug to be happier. There is a total lack of comprehension or sympathy for alcohol use, and it’s not going to change easily. I have been Catholic for ten years now, and I have seen NOTHING that has changed my mind about alcohol use. On the contrary, I’m even more opposed.
I agree that abuse of alcohol by Catholics is a serious sin, as it is by anyone. We had a recent example of that recently by a Scottish Cardinal Keith O’Brien who used drunken parties to molest trainee-priests. The problem was that he wasn’t excommunicated for his homosexual behaviour. He’s still a Catholic, still in the church. That is more of an issue for me than the fact he abused alcohol.
 
It’s that time of year when the festival season at Catholic parishes in my area gets into full swing. Generally, a lot of the neighborhoods wind up unhappy about these festivals which are meant to earn money for the parish, but also bring a lot of drunkedness into the neighborhoods because the festivals tend to sell alcohol as part of their fund-raising. It is a part of Catholic culture which I find disturbing – I don’t know why any church would encourage drinking at such large events. Do Protestants have church events which include alcohol or do they tend to frown on these activities at church?
As many have said many Protestants don’t, I’d say all but when I was in Protestantism I have never seen alcohol at functions. Our Church does have alcohol at functions sometimes.
 
It bothers me that I canot take my LDS wife to a Catholic function because she will not go because alcohol is part of the event. She does not believe alcohol is appropriate at a Christian function.

It bothers me to have a priest give a sermon when he talks about partying with parishioners and drinking. It bothers me when the chair of the parish festival is bragging about all the beer that will be available when encouraging people to attend the festival.

It bothered me when the celebration party at church following my baptism included everyone breaking out the hard liquor. It bothers me that when the Catholic institution I work for has a dinner that the wine is flowing and people are drinking too much.

Keep your drinking to yourselves at home. I don’t need to be subjected to it at a church party. Mass isn’the a problem, but don’t subject me to encouraging drinking at a church function outside of Mass.
 
Did you read the article?

If you read this article, you will see that Evangelical Protestants are not likely to “get their priorities straight.”

In my opinion, you (and other Catholics) are insulting Evangelical Protestants by greatly over-simplifying and pooh-poohing their very thought-filled objections to alcohol use by Christians.
Yes, I read the article. I thought that the author and those he cited made excellent points regarding the abuse of alcohol. It is true that alcohol can ruin lives if improperly utilized. However, the article failed to demonstrate why alcohol is evil in itself, or why it can’t be enjoyed in moderation. That being said, I believe it is a noble thing for a Christian to renounce all alcohol use. But I simply can’t see any good reason for why you would ever expect the Church to place a ban on the consumption of alcohol by the faithful. I will say again - the Church will condemn drunkenness, but She will not condemn alcohol.

I also have to point out that the article made extensive use of slippery slope arguments. It seemed to infer that everyone who enjoys an occasional beer will one day have their lives ruined by alcohol abuse. This simply isn’t the case. When one becomes a Catholic, they are no required to drink. So they may simply choose not to. But to say that the Church should step in and ban the consumption of alcohol because “my grandfather had a drinking problem” is absurd.
 
It bothers me that I canot take my LDS wife to a Catholic function because she will not go because alcohol is part of the event. She does not believe alcohol is appropriate at a Christian function.

It bothers me to have a priest give a sermon when he talks about partying with parishioners and drinking. It bothers me when the chair of the parish festival is bragging about all the beer that will be available when encouraging people to attend the festival.

It bothered me when the celebration party at church following my baptism included everyone breaking out the hard liquor. It bothers me that when the Catholic institution I work for has a dinner that the wine is flowing and people are drinking too much.

Keep your drinking to yourselves at home. I don’t need to be subjected to it at a church party. Mass isn’the a problem, but don’t subject me to encouraging drinking at a church function outside of Mass.
All of these issues which you have brought up are disturbing, except for perhaps the first one which seems to be entirely a matter of opinion. The abuse of alcohol is one thing. Drinking in moderation is another. It is understandable that you and your wife are upset by the prevalence of alcohol in your church community. However, you must remember that the Church does not condone alcohol abuse. Or perhaps lightening up about some coworkers having some wine at a dinner party couldn’t hurt either.
 
It bothers me to have a priest give a sermon when he talks about partying with parishioners and drinking. It bothers me when the chair of the parish festival is bragging about all the beer that will be available when encouraging people to attend the festival.
I find it hard to believe that a priest would include such matter in a homily. BTW, it is called a homily, not a sermon. Are you really Catholic? Now you have me doubting. No real Catholic would call a homily a sermon. Protestants have sermons, Catholics have homilies.

Paul
 
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