Protestants and annulments

[Patri]

So your church does not do marriages? Is there a reason why? I would think people would want to exchange vows before God?

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Why is this such a big issue for you? Have you had a marriage annulment? The Church obviously has the last word on this issue. I just do not believe in annulments. I believe that vows are sacred.
And as for what you believe, believe as you will. I am in no way trying to judge what you believe.That is your business.

 

[OddBird]

We do have wedding ceremonies. But the understanding is that the actual wedding is performed by the state, and what we do is a blessing, with an exchange of promises, for those who want to place their union before God.

Maybe I should have made clear that we do not have church law, and so the only law that binds the church is the law of the state. And that in some European countries, including the one I grew up in and the one I live in, even for Catholics, it is actually illegal to have a religious wedding ceremony before the marriage has been civilly registered.

 

[whatistrue]

Not that it’s any of your business, but no. I was widowed once and remarried. And I also believe that vows are sacred. But a declaration of nullity only says that the apparent vows were defective in some specific way and so not actual vows. Why is that such a big deal for you?

 

[Patri]

I see, I think when we do the Catholic wedding here, it is made legal. Not married so I can’t say for sure but can’t recall any of my friends saying they went to court, so I think the church sends the certificate or documents to City Hall.

 

[1ke]

What about Catholics who are married and annulled numerous times over a period of a lifetime?

And, once again, no one is “annulled” and no marriage is “annulled.” People receive a declaration of nullity if there is a finding that no valid marriage took place.

While it is possible for a person to have more than one marriage with a finding of nullity, in most cases if a person has an impediment to valid marriage that persists, then the Church issues a vetitum which prevents that person from entering into another marriage until and unless the impediment ceases-- which may be for a time or may be indefinitely.

You cannot characterize it as someone obtaining “numerous” decrees of nullity, because that just does not happen.

 

[1ke]

Over the years, the Church has been a little wishy-washy at times.

Sigh. It’s your understanding that is flawed, not what the Church does.

When I was a boy, consuming meat on Friday was a big, big sin. Now it is not.

Actually, the sin was, and still is, violating the assigned penance of the Church-- whatever form that takes.

Today, in many countries, the penance remains abstaining from meat just as it was when you were a boy. In some countries, we may choose a penance.

 

[1ke]

I see, I think when we do the Catholic wedding here, it is made legal. Not married so I can’t say for sure but can’t recall any of my friends saying they went to court, so I think the church sends the certificate or documents to City Hall.

In the United States, clergy are both the civil and religious officiants of marriage. So a clergy person requires a civil marriage license to perform the marriage, and then completes that license and returns it to the state.

This is not the case in most places. In most places, the civil and religious marriages are two separate events, with the civil marriage required to come first.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Theoretically, two non-Catholics could have their marriage reviewed by a Catholic diocesan tribunal for a possible declaration of nullity, just the same as two Catholics can. Interestingly, you do not have to be Catholic to obtain an annulment. I can’t imagine why they would do something like that (aside from when a Catholic desires to marry a non-Catholic, and annulments have to be sought for all previous marriages of both parties) but they could. I would have absolutely no problem with encouraging two non-Catholics to approach a Catholic marriage tribunal, in fact, I would see it as a hopeful indication that they are beginning to “see things the Catholic way” and convert.

I have heard that some conservative “continuing Anglican” bodies have a procedure similar to our marriage tribunal and declaration of nullity. I doubt a Catholic tribunal would grant this any validity whatsoever, but I could be wrong — very conservative Anglicans (Forward in Faith et al) are just “>>thisclose<<” to being Roman Catholics, and there is very, very little that separates us. I cannot say for sure, but it’s possible that a Roman Catholic tribunal could review the findings of a continuing Anglican tribunal, say “yes, they came to the right conclusion”, and declare nullity based on this. They would not be recognizing the Anglican annulment, just issuing a declaration of nullity based upon the Anglican findings. I would be interested to know if this has ever actually occurred.

Aside from that, non-Catholic Western Christians (i.e., non-Orthodox) simply say that the divorce decree from the civil court dissolved the marriage, and they don’t bother analyzing anything, looking for things that would prove nullity, none of that. They basically give a secular judge the power to dissolve a sacrament. That’s really strange, from a Catholic point of view, but that’s just what they do.

“Dating” is a socially conditioned construct, and canon law doesn’t address it. Some cultures have arranged marriages, and their unmarried people do not “date” as we understand it.

 

[1ke]

I would be interested to know if this has ever actually occurred.

Since the nullity process is governed by canon law, and “review someone else’s findings instead of conducting the full tribunal process” is not part of the law, the answer would be no.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I would be interested to know if this has ever actually occurred.

I meant that the tribunal’s investigation could be enhanced or augmented by the Anglican findings, not replaced by them. I do not know how close their methods are to what we do, but my understanding is that they seek reasons a marriage could be found null and void. I have been especially inspired lately to know that the new nullity protocols can include the bishop himself sitting down with the findings, reading them, presumably seeking wisdom through prayer (I would hope so, anyway), and making a decision on his own. I am all in favor of that. I believe in the bishop himself, who is ultimately the “pastor” of everyone in his diocese, being closely involved in matters involving his faithful, instead of “subbing out” everything to diocesan functionaries.

 

[MichaelP3]

no, because I’m Catholic I believe it is the Catholic Church that has the authority to examine the validity of a marriage.

Whether you are Catholic or not is not really relevant here.

So I am only asking a question here. Does this mean you believe a non-Catholic Church can confer a valid marriage but in the same breath you also say that this Church in question cannot evaluate the marriage regarding its supposed validity?

 

[Ammi]

I believe the Church does accept Eastern Orthodox tribunals.

 

[Ammi]

vsedriver:

no, because I’m Catholic I believe it is the Catholic Church that has the authority to examine the validity of a marriage.

Whether you are Catholic or not is not really relevant here.

So I am only asking a question here. Does this mean you believe a non-Catholic Church can confer a valid marriage but in the same breath you also say that this Church in question cannot evaluate the marriage regarding its supposed validity?

It’s not the Church which confers Marriage, but the spouses.

It gets complex to understand how Protestant Christian’s can believe that the Sacrament can be dissolved through divorce, yet they can still “intend what the Church intends by marriage”.

I think the Catholic Tribunals in the U.S. afford alot to nullity cases and alot to establishing a valid Sacrament. It’s not a balanced view.

 

[JulianN]

you also say that this Church in question cannot evaluate the marriage regarding its supposed validity?

A marriage tribunal is investigating a person’s freedom to marry in the Catholic Church. It’s difficult to imagine a non-Catholic church being in a position to make that determination.

 

[Ammi]

MichaelP3:

you also say that this Church in question cannot evaluate the marriage regarding its supposed validity?

A marriage tribunal is investigating a person’s freedom to marry in the Catholic Church. It’s difficult to imagine a non-Catholic church being in a position to make that determination.

Rather it is investigating whether an impediment to the Sacrament existed at the wedding.

Freedom to marry is consequential.

 

[JulianN]

Rather it is investigating whether an impediment to the Sacrament existed at the wedding.

Validity, not sacramentality.

 

[MarkRome]

A few years ago there was a Christian-themed romantic comedy movie called In-Lawfully Yours. It was about a divorced woman living with her ex’s mother and finding love again, with a Protestant pastor. Anyway, I knew a person involved with the filming and couldn’t in good conscience “like” the movie because she divorced and was pursuing a relationship with another man.
It wasn’t until the end of the movie that it came out that her husband had been previously married (which according to Catholic teaching would invalidate their marriage from the start).

The bottom line is that I don’t believe we we should actively encourage remarriage by playing matchmaker.

 

[1ke]

believe the Church does accept Eastern Orthodox tribunals.

Orthodox Churches do not have marriage tribunals.

Also, nothing in Catholic Church law allows for this. A non Catholic wanting to marry a Catholic would need to petition the Catholic Church regarding a prior marriage.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

Rather it is investigating whether an impediment to the Sacrament existed at the wedding.

Validity, not sacramentality.

I didnt use the term Sacramentality. I said impediment to the sacrament.

Validity of the Sacrament is assumed, if there is not determined and impediment.