Protestants and divorce

[rinnie]

The Council of Trent, In the case of a divorce, stated the right of the innocent party to marry again was denied so long as the other party is alive, even if the other may have committed adultery.

Because it now was dogma, the only way to get around it was to state the marriage never took place, hence the Decree of Nullity.

Agreed. That is true. As I stated before unless you can prove that the marriage indeed never took place you cannot divorce.

Let me again say Divorce is forbidden in the RCC. No ifs ands or buts.

If you receive an annullment that means that there was never a marriage in the first place. You cannot say you are divorced because you must have a marriage to have a divorce.

A great example is say someone marrys one for the intent of money only. But the one person was inocent, and thought the other loved them. The first part was lied to and was in no way in a valid marriage. The other part did not mean the vows they intended. That what is considered a invalid marriage.

Another example say one part is Gay and is using the other to hide the fact. But cannot give themself to the other party for the obvious. One part was again lied to. Annulment can be granted.

Say a person is pregnant and forced to be married. But does not really love the other party. Again annulment.

It is when one person was not sincere from the beginning with the vows and never meant to honor them.

 

[choy]

i was listening to a Pentecostal pastor/missionary once talk about the wonderful blessing about his son being divorced

well, the story was, they were setting up a church in the Philippines as part of their mission and the wife of the son didn’t want to stay in the Philippines. so in essence she was preventing him from doing the work they need to do. they got divorced and now the son is remarried to someone who’s willing to go with him to the Philippines (the pastor and his family are Americans) to do the missionary work

i wanted to raise my hand and ask a question how a divorce can be called a blessing. i wouldn’t question it if the son divorced the wife and then continued on his calling on his own, but part of the “blessing” was getting re-married to someone wililng to accompany him.

 

[rinnie]

The Council of Trent, In the case of a divorce, stated the right of the innocent party to marry again was denied so long as the other party is alive, even if the other may have committed adultery.

Because it now was dogma, the only way to get around it was to state the marriage never took place, hence the Decree of Nullity.

The reason adultery is not considered valid is if they both married and were both at the time of marriage sincere to keep those vows. Then they both promised God to honor them. What God put together no one can separate. They are and will be married in the eyes of God until death.

Now if a person commmitted Adultery from day one and never intended to keep the vows, then it another story. Adultery can be a reason. Again its circumstances. Like all situations they are all different.

 

[rinnie]

i was listening to a Pentecostal pastor/missionary once talk about the wonderful blessing about his son being divorced

well, the story was, they were setting up a church in the Philippines as part of their mission and the wife of the son didn’t want to stay in the Philippines. so in essence she was preventing him from doing the work they need to do. they got divorced and now the son is remarried to someone who’s willing to go with him to the Philippines (the pastor and his family are Americans) to do the missionary work

i wanted to raise my hand and ask a question how a divorce can be called a blessing. i wouldn’t question it if the son divorced the wife and then continued on his calling on his own, but part of the “blessing” was getting re-married to someone wililng to accompany him.

I am like you Choy on this one

 

[Dokimas]

This is false, Christ actually revoked the ability to divorce telling the saducees that moses allowed only because of their hard hearts and that God never wanted it that way.

He then authoritatively said that what God brings together let no man put asunder.

Also the Catholic Church does not allow divorce through the anulment. Rather that if a marriage is able to be anulled means that there was never an sacramental marriage to begin with. When a person petitions the Church for an anullment they must prove that the marriage was never valid. This is why it can be quite costly for an anullment to be processed do to all of the background work that must be performed.

Peace!

As a Biblical authority, could you please explain this verse?

Mt 5:32 "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

 

[choy]

Jesus allowed it for adultery. The CC allows it by annulment, unless I’m mistaken.

you are indeed mistaken

annulment, as in any contract, means something was invalid from the beginning. the circumstance of annulment is that at least one of the parties are in good faith and believe everything to be valid until they receive information in the future that proves that disqualifies the validity of the said contract (in this case, marriage) or that one of the parties was acting in bad faith

for example, a shotgun wedding. you were married because you were forced into it and threattened. so the marriage is invalid from the beginning because one of the prerequisites is that you agreed to the marriage in your own free will. but if you were under duress at that time which forced you to agree, then in the future when you are safe from harm you bring this information to the Church, they can say that the marriage was not valid to begin with.

a divorce ends a marriage. annulment doesn’t end a marriage. an annulment means there was no marriage to begin with

 

[jmcrae]

As a Biblical authority, could you please explain this verse?

Mt 5:32 "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

The phrase translated “sexual immorality” in your translation is actually “unlawfulness” in the original, and refers to the unlawfulness of the marriage itself (ie: marrying your sister would be an unlawful marriage, and thus, you could divorce her) - not to anything that happens after the wedding takes place.

 

[Dokimas]

The phrase translated “sexual immorality” in your translation is actually “unlawfulness” in the original, and refers to the unlawfulness of the marriage itself (ie: marrying your sister would be an unlawful marriage, and thus, you could divorce her) - not to anything that happens after the wedding takes place.

Here’s the word:

4202 πορνεια porneia por-ni’-ah

from 4203; TDNT-6:579,918; n f

AV-fornication 26; 26

1. illicit sexual intercourse
   1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
   1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; #Le 18:6-23
   1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; #Mr 10:11,12
2. metaph. the worship of idols
   2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

 

[jmcrae]

Here’s the word:

4202 πορνεια porneia por-ni’-ah

from 4203; TDNT-6:579,918; n f

AV-fornication 26; 26

1. illicit sexual intercourse
   1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
   1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; #Le 18:6-23
   1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; #Mr 10:11,12
2. metaph. the worship of idols
   2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

1b and 1c would fit the context. If the person you are marrying is your relative, or is a divorced person, then it would be an unlawful marriage, and you could get a divorce.

 

[choy]

1b and 1c would fit the context. If the person you are marrying is your relative, or is a divorced person, then it would be an unlawful marriage, and you could get a divorce.

is it also possible that annulment is a more modern term and that the only way to describe separation back then was the word equivalent to divorce?

 

[Dokimas]

1b and 1c would fit the context. If the person you are marrying is your relative, or is a divorced person, then it would be an unlawful marriage, and you could get a divorce.

As I think about it, your understanding doesn’t make sense. Jesus would have had stronger words for a person marring a relative, IMO.

 

[Dokimas]

is it also possible that annulment is a more modern term and that the only way to describe separation back then was the word equivalent to divorce?

What does the CC say are the grounds for annulment?

 

[jmcrae]

is it also possible that annulment is a more modern term and that the only way to describe separation back then was the word equivalent to divorce?

Well, they would also have to get a divorce, which is basically a decree that says who gets to keep what, out of the joint assets.

 

[rinnie]

What does the CC say are the grounds for annulment?

Lets make this easy. Look up the CCC 1625-1632 It explains all the conditions for a valid and in- valid marriage. Thats so much easier.

 

[choy]

CCC 1628 The consent must be an act of the will of each of the contracting parties, free of coercion or grave external fear. No human power can substitute for this consent. If this freedom is lacking the marriage is invalid.

 

[Dokimas]

Lets make this easy. Look up the CCC 1625-1632 It explains all the conditions for a valid and in- valid marriage. Thats so much easier.

Could you give a link or cut and paste? I don’t know how to look up CCC 1625-1632.

 

[choy]

Could you give a link or cut and paste? I don’t know how to look up CCC 1625-1632.

III. MATRIMONIAL CONSENT

1625 The parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman, free to contract marriage, who freely express their consent; “to be free” means:

• not being under constraint;
• not impeded by any natural or ecclesiastical law.

1626 The Church holds the exchange of consent between the spouses to be the indispensable element that "makes the marriage."127 If consent is lacking there is no marriage.

1627 The consent consists in a “human act by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other”: “I take you to be my wife” - "I take you to be my husband."128 This consent that binds the spouses to each other finds its fulfillment in the two "becoming one flesh."129

1628 The consent must be an act of the will of each of the contracting parties, free of coercion or grave external fear.130 No human power can substitute for this consent.131 If this freedom is lacking the marriage is invalid.

1629 For this reason (or for other reasons that render the marriage null and void) the Church, after an examination of the situation by the competent ecclesiastical tribunal, can declare the nullity of a marriage, i.e., that the marriage never existed.132 In this case the contracting parties are free to marry, provided the natural obligations of a previous union are discharged.133

1630 The priest (or deacon) who assists at the celebration of a marriage receives the consent of the spouses in the name of the Church and gives the blessing of the Church. The presence of the Church’s minister (and also of the witnesses) visibly expresses the fact that marriage is an ecclesial reality.

1631 This is the reason why the Church normally requires that the faithful contract marriage according to the ecclesiastical form. Several reasons converge to explain this requirement:134

• Sacramental marriage is a liturgical act. It is therefore appropriate that it should be celebrated in the public liturgy of the Church;
• Marriage introduces one into an ecclesial order, and creates rights and duties in the Church between the spouses and towards their children;
• Since marriage is a state of life in the Church, certainty about it is necessary (hence the obligation to have witnesses);
• The public character of the consent protects the “I do” once given and helps the spouses remain faithful to it.

1632 So that the “I do” of the spouses may be a free and responsible act and so that the marriage covenant may have solid and lasting human and Christian foundations, preparation for marriage is of prime importance.

The example and teaching given by parents and families remain the special form of this preparation.

The role of pastors and of the Christian community as the “family of God” is indispensable for the transmission of the human and Christian values of marriage and family,135 and much more so in our era when many young people experience broken homes which no longer sufficiently assure this initiation:

It is imperative to give suitable and timely instruction to young people, above all in the heart of their own families, about the dignity of married love, its role and its exercise, so that, having learned the value of chastity, they will be able at a suitable age to engage in honorable courtship and enter upon a marriage of their own.136

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm

 

[rinnie]

Could you give a link or cut and paste? I don’t know how to look up CCC 1625-1632.

I am sorry I don’t know how to do that. Just go to google and punch in CCC 1625-1632 It should take you right to it. Or put in the according to the CCC what is the teachings of Matrimonial Consent. You should be able to get it that way.

 

[rinnie]

I am sorry I don’t know how to do that. Just go to google and punch in CCC 1625-1632 It should take you right to it. Or put in the according to the CCC what is the teachings of Matrimonial Consent. You should be able to get it that way.

AH, My Man Choy there did it for you. Thanks CHoy!

 

[vickimonica]

At what point is a marriage deemed invalid? At the time the sacrament took place and was blessed by the CC after having attended the marriage prep classes which the priest then deemed the participants free and fit to marry?

My sister’s marriage was deemed valid for 10 years. After divorcing and desiring to remarry did she need to get the first marriage nullified. And of course it was.

Funny thing when talking to her, she said, “Where do you think we get all the ashes for Ash Wednesday?” I had to laugh. Yeah, the burning of the old marriage certificates.

You can put lipstick on a pig.

I hope you’re joking. The Ashes for Ash Wed. come from the palm branches that were used on the prior Palm Sunday…