Protestants and divorce

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We are talking right past each other. I am not Catholic, Buddhist, Mormon or anything like that. Whatever rules anyone else may have in regards to their faiths religious marriage ceremony is their business but marriage is a legal matter no matter what. So is divorce. The Catholic Church may say it was never a marriage but the legal documents suggest otherwise. So by the same standard of me being married, by a justice of the peace, they were married legally. If Protestants had an annullment process, we could say we were never really married either. As it is, we are just flat out of luck because the state consides our marriage “valid” and so do the divorce lawyers. :rolleyes:
On a side note, I would love to see a historical source for annullments. When was the first one granted?
Brian-Married to the same and only woman for 18 years 😃
 
Thats because the CC has shuned then.
So lets say your husband beats you, you can not divorce him?
If your wife is unfaithful in the marriage, you can not divorce her?
My bad. Yes I can divorce. No I cannot remarry.

Rev Kev-

Every childhood friend I have except one is at least divorced, all but one has remarried, and many remarried more than once.

The divorce rate in this culture is over 50%. And just as many Catholics are divorcing.

The real culprit is abc, not denominational influence.

Married couples, Protestant and Catholic, who practice nfp have a divorce rate of less than 10%.
 
States do have an annulment process.
True, but besides the Philippines and maybe Malta what US state or nation state will issue an nullity for multi-decade marriages with children unless it was proven that being married would make you a bigamist?
 
True, but besides the Philippines and maybe Malta what US state or nation state will issue an nullity for multi-decade marriages with children unless it was proven that being married would make you a bigamist?
Sounds like a benny to me.
 
Agreed. That is true. As I stated before unless you can prove that the marriage indeed never took place you cannot divorce.

Let me again say Divorce is forbidden in the RCC. No ifs ands or buts.

If you receive an annullment that means that there was never a marriage in the first place. You cannot say you are divorced because you must have a marriage to have a divorce.
You’re putting lipstick on a pig!

The RCC is against divorce, agreed. The very definition of annulment testifies to the fact the marriage took place. So if the marriage was deemed valid when consummated, regardless the reason, the CC should not be granting annulments. However they do. Speaking with others regarding this, no one could think any instance where a couple wasn’t granted an annulment. In some instances it took longer than a year, but it was eventually nullified.
 
I hope you’re joking. The Ashes for Ash Wed. come from the palm branches that were used on the prior Palm Sunday…
Actually it was my Catholic sister who said it. I just couldn’t resist using it.

The joke is characteristic of the mockery that the nullification is. Perhaps there are instances that people enter into marriage without the intent of being faithful, but I’m sure that’s rare.

Does nullifying marriage entered into earnerstly comply with the spirit of Trent or circumvent Trent?
 
We are talking right past each other. I am not Catholic, Buddhist, Mormon or anything like that. Whatever rules anyone else may have in regards to their faiths religious marriage ceremony is their business but marriage is a legal matter no matter what. So is divorce. The Catholic Church may say it was never a marriage but the legal documents suggest otherwise. So by the same standard of me being married, by a justice of the peace, they were married legally. If Protestants had an annullment process, we could say we were never really married either. As it is, we are just flat out of luck because the state consides our marriage “valid” and so do the divorce lawyers. :rolleyes:
On a side note, I would love to see a historical source for annullments. When was the first one granted?
Brian-Married to the same and only woman for 18 years 😃
God calls marriage, marriage and does not provide for an annullments in the bible.
 
You’re putting lipstick on a pig!

The RCC is against divorce, agreed. The very definition of annulment testifies to the fact the marriage took place. So if the marriage was deemed valid when consummated, regardless the reason, the CC should not be granting annulments. However they do. Speaking with others regarding this, no one could think any instance where a couple wasn’t granted an annulment. In some instances it took longer than a year, but it was eventually nullified.
in a perfect world we’d have all the facts before the marraige
but we’re not in a perfect world. soemtimes we find out things later on in life that we were deceived. sometimes one of the parties in the marriage deliberately witholds the information. what can we do about it? being human, we’re limited.

there have been many who sought an annulment and didn’t get it
 
Interesting you should point out the Philippines situation. My wife is from the Philippines, lived the first 24 years of her life born and raised there. I’ve been there several times. I’ve always observed that they love to point out how they never permit divorce and yet you see plenty of “annulments” (a rose by any other name) and TONS of people cohabitating or just shacking up. There are so many out-of-wedlock births there that it’s mind-boggling. I think at least in the States legal divorce, though I hate it (!!) is at least honest and gives the woman some rights to get alimony and child support.
well, if only the Filipinos (i am one, now living in Canada) would love litigation as much as Americans, it would solve a lot of those issues

you can actually sue your husband if he’s cohabiting with someone else. sadly, either ignorance of the laws or lack of funds (its a third world country and many can’t afford the legal fees) prevent people from pursuing cases. but the law does provide protection. just good luck in actually getting it
 
As a Biblical authority, could you please explain this verse?

Mt 5:32 "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Catholic Encylopedia.
  1. The Original Indissolubility of Marriage and Its Restoration by Christ.—The inadmissibility of absolute divorce was ordained by Christ Himself according to the testimony of the Apostles and Evangelists: “Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery” (Mark, x, 11, 12.—Cf. Matt., xix, 9; Luke, xvi, 18). In like manner, St. Paul: “To them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband. And if she depart, that she remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And let not the husband put away his wife” (I Cor., vii, 10, 11). In these words Christ restored the original indissolubility of marriage as it had been ordained by God in the Creation and was grounded in human nature. This is expressly stated by Him against the Pharisees, who put forward the separation allowed by Moses: “Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so” (Matt., xix, 8); “He who made man from the beginning, made them male and female. And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder” (Matt., xix, 4-6). The indissolubility of all marriage, not merely of Christian marriage, is here affirmed. The permanence of marriage for the whole human race according to natural law is here confirmed and ratified by a Divine positive ordinance.
So according to you Dokimas, We should ignore what Christ and the Apostles are saying here and then turn around and believe your interpretaion of a more ambiguous passage. Especially since adultery is not mentioned in your example but rather fornication which has several meanings.
Believe what you want, but I’m going with the church on this one.

Peace!
 
You’re putting lipstick on a pig!

The RCC is against divorce, agreed. The very definition of annulment testifies to the fact the marriage took place. So if the marriage was deemed valid when consummated, regardless the reason, the CC should not be granting annulments. However they do. Speaking with others regarding this, no one could think any instance where a couple wasn’t granted an annulment. In some instances it took longer than a year, but it was eventually nullified.
Again no it does not. The marriage never took place in the eyes of the church because for a marriage to be a VALID marriage certain conditions must be met. If certain conditions were not met it was not a VALID marriage in the eyes of the Church.

So is it was not considered a VALID Marriage it is considered VOID which means no marriage ever existed, Thats what a annulment means. There was never a valid marriage.

Agreed the RCC is against divorce. If a couple had a VALID MARRIAGE they can get divorced legally according to the law, but the church does not acknowledge it. They can have a legal separation in the eyes of the Church and are man and wife until the other dies. You do not have to live together you can live apart, but not re-marry as long as the other lives. And you may not remarry outside of the Church or you cannot receive communion. You should live alone until you can either work out the marriage or until the other dies. What God has put together no one can tear apart. The CHurch has no right to trump the word of God. Nor ever will! The Church is the Word of God!
 
AND I AM INSULTED, I WOULD NEVER PUT LIP STICK ON A PIG:mad:

MAYBE JEWERLY:D:p
 
We are talking right past each other. I am not Catholic, Buddhist, Mormon or anything like that. Whatever rules anyone else may have in regards to their faiths religious marriage ceremony is their business but marriage is a legal matter no matter what. So is divorce. The Catholic Church may say it was never a marriage but the legal documents suggest otherwise. So by the same standard of me being married, by a justice of the peace, they were married legally. If Protestants had an annullment process, we could say we were never really married either. As it is, we are just flat out of luck because the state consides our marriage “valid” and so do the divorce lawyers. :rolleyes:
On a side note, I would love to see a historical source for annullments. When was the first one granted?
Brian-Married to the same and only woman for 18 years 😃
Yes, According to Secular Law (read Ceasar) marriage is a legal contract and good for them. But The Church does not rely on Ceasar to allow the Marriage. Some benefits come from the married couple having there marriage registered with the state, such as property writes, But if the state were not recognize Catholic marriages, it would not matter in the least because the state does not consecrate a marriage that is left only to God.

Like I said earlier, Protestants are not held to the same degree of culpability due to their ignorance (as is with your case) of the sacramental nature of a Catholic Marriage.

Peace
 
Does anyone know what is or what are the rationales offered by Protestant denominations for allowing divorce if traditional, orthodox Christianity in the West never allowed it? Is it a side-effect of downplaying or denying the sacramental nature of marriage?

I ask in order to understand, not to lecture or moralize.
As near as I can tell from what I have studied and been through with protestants with divource, none of them have the Scripture correctly interpreted.

Protestants, want a winner in the situation, so by and large most protestants interpret the scripture the person not in Adultery no matter what doesn’t committ adultery when they remary, which is directly opposite of what the scripture says.

But since they are, as protestants under no obligation to correctly interpret the Scripture, by Scriptura Solara, or Fidei, they just figure it out how it works for them and go with that way.

Protestants want to take the none-offending person and turn them into blameless, completely forgetting that adultery is still part of the curse of man at Genesis, when Jesus says if either party remarry they are committing adultery, that is what he meant. However what exactly that makes second marriage adultery is not explicitly stated in Scripture either Douai-Rheims or KJV, When God spoke LET THEM BE ONE FLESH, and LET NO MAN SPLIT IT ASUNDER, that is exactly what Sets up For Christs sermons he gave.
In point of Fact Christs Spoken word on marriage and remarriage moves the state of Marriage back pre Deutoronomy, but that is not explicitly evident from a general reading of the Bible either. You have to sit there and peice it all back together Gospels to Duetronomy to Genesis, it will fit together but not many persons take the time to do that.

Christ is Completely Consistent with GOD’s Spoken Word IN Deutronomy to Moses, who said, “but… But from the Beginning it was not so.” and God’s Spoken Word in Genesis, at man’s fall, “Let them be ONE FLESH.”

so a Man and women will divource and remarry and they will be both in Adultery at this point, but neither of them have sufficient understanding of Scripture to understand that they are in Adultery This is where you will find the inherent weakness in protestantism, especially in this matter as compared to Roman Catholicism. Here with Roman Catholicism, both Scripture and Doctrine in the light of Scripture are rigorously enforced, and Doctrin and the Catechism state, That for absolution to be granted to persons in Adultery they must stop the Adultery… In protestantism which generally have little to no
actual Doctrine, they have no way of enforcing correct interpretation of the scriptures so the problem goes completely either without correction or … The Problem is that persons who are protestant generally do not know they are in adultery and the solution is that people who are protestant generally have no idea they are in adultery, their ignorance is what is protecting them in those cases, because the Spirit refuses to operate where their is ignorance of the LAW. They can read, “they are in Adultery” but most can’t figure out how or why they can only be married one time. So they read the scripture the first time and all that occurrs to them is “WHY?” that is the some total of their response to the Scripture… And they will keep reading the scripture and they will keep saying “Why??” at that spot in Scripture… And they are so CUTEE!!! , But they are in terrible contradiction to the word… So I don’t know… We will have to pray for those persons; and here now is the
other part of the word.

Lets say for the sake of argument that protestant church’s function exactly as designed, and justification is automatic by Christs Passion, then there person will literally stay in their second marriages for upteen 20-30 years and will by scripture be in adultery the whole time, and they will be if they are not ignorant of the scripture , be being assigned a Hell Sentence for their actions, and they will never have any idea that their is a punitive measure to their actions as Justification in protestant church’s is automatically given so the person never spends any time in guilt to know they are transgressing the word of the Lord… You can destroy the whole protestant church with Marriage Scripture, you can undermine all of it using the flaws it allows to go on in its environs…

So what to do?? Nothing… because for those persons being married to their original spouse is just as damning(while alive) in their eyes as adultery itself… So I don’t know what
is going to happen to those persons, I have a whole group of those persons that I pray for, but, I don’t know what is going to happen to them.

But most protestant church’s are derived from HENRY VIII’s Church and we all know why that came into being, ADUTLERY!! SO???

The Roman Catholic Church is the only Church on the planet that has everything correct, So???

hoping for Forgiveness because Jesus forgave the Woman at the well, and she had been married 5 times, and the man that she was with was not her husband, meaning he was not her husband and that she wasn’t currently married. So the head of the Protestant Church is Elizebeth Taylor, because she’s worth it…

But I don’t know what Jesus is going to do, because on the other hand, ALL SOCIETAL ILLS CAN BE TRACED TO BROKEN FAMILY’S AND HOMES SOMEWHERE. Theft, Robbery, Drugs, Drug dealing, murders associated to those things, etc, can all be traced to Adultery and the Broken Home?? So are those persons going to be held blameless??

Adultery and Re-marriage will be the number one cause of the collapse of western civilization in the end, I can almost promise you at the root of the problem you will find Adultery and Fornication outside of Holy Matrimony. that is the driver for 80%+ of all things
destroying society.
 
You’re putting lipstick on a pig!

The RCC is against divorce, agreed. The very definition of annulment testifies to the fact the marriage took place. So if the marriage was deemed valid when consummated, regardless the reason, the CC should not be granting annulments. However they do. Speaking with others regarding this, no one could think any instance where a couple wasn’t granted an annulment. In some instances it took longer than a year, but it was eventually nullified.
It wasn’t deemed valid. Do you know of a marriage that was nullified and was valid. Please enlighten us.

It is not the church that has the lipstick in hand. It is you, and you seem to think it is OK to paint it on any face pig or not.

Your ignorance of a sacramental marriage is understandable, I just wish you could see your mental masturbation for what it is, a grossly simplistic genearlization on a very complex issue. With no one case being the same.

Peace!👍
 
When you do have a divource in those cases , then you automatically limit the level of the Childrens ability to adhere to scripture, Because for a Child to know the complete truth about Jesus Meaning and intent in that situation, then the Child cannot ever know it, or they will end up blaming their parents, that is the first effect, the second is now you have a child that has a weak spot in their Christianity, and that can be used against them, that is the second effect, so in fact adultery and second marriage are generally far more destructive long range POTENTIALLY than anyone will let on.

This stuff just builds on itself, causing the collapse of Christianity inside the home, in some cases. If the parents are wise enough they will continue in their Christianity as they must to limit the impact their actions have on their Children and themselves, etc…

But using the logic of the Scripture the most you can hope for is an almost return to righteousness, as GOD’s WORD will never be BROKEN… So lets say that in the best
circumstances those persons can return to 98% of their rightousness level and that is with serious work… but they will have forever robbed themselves of this , and most don’t even attempt to do that. So…???

Adutlery is actually twice as damning , Jesus assigns by Scripture a Hell sentence for Adultery… But Long range wise over the course of the Childrens lives etc, it may be doubly or triply damning, Adultery and Divource and Remarriage are in truth so potentially destructive that they are hardly ever worth it…

I think however that something is missing form Moses time in the situation in modern culture and that is , In Moses Day if a Man’s daughter who was married was being hurt, chances are the Dad and his sons would draw sword and kill the offender (which is not often talked about) Your not going to hurt my Daughter, so the men would kill the abusive spouse and SCRIPTURE HAS BEEN FULLFILLED , even with killing someone, and the WOMAN is FREE TO MARRY… But no one does that anymore, SO??? That is probably being taken into account by Jesus also. I think in contradiction to Modern university teaching that Men of OLD would beat their wives ferociously (as they want you to believe in modern liberal arts university’s, all men are abusive, all sex is rape, all men rape their wives , you’ve heard the stories of Liberal arts educations) I think in truth the problem was far less pronounced then they lead their students to believe because in thsoe days they would kill one another over Family members. If a Man who hurt soemones daughter, you did so taking your own life into your hands. Because you would be killed for it in some cases.
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]
It wasn’t deemed valid. Do you know of a marriage that was nullified and was valid. Please enlighten us.

It is not the church that has the lipstick in hand. It is you, and you seem to think it is OK to paint it on any face pig or not.

Your ignorance of a sacramental marriage is understandable, I just wish you could see [SIGN]your mental masturbation for what it is, a grossly simplistic genearlization on a very complex issue.[/SIGN] With no one case being the same.

Peace!👍
Not to mention just plain nasty. It also causes alot of mental issues. Where INTENSE therapy is usually needed. Personally thing like that should not be discussed on this forum IMO get professional help.
 
True, but besides the Philippines and maybe Malta what US state or nation state will issue an nullity for multi-decade marriages with children unless it was proven that being married would make you a bigamist?
The Philippines is not a US state or nation state.
 
The RCC is against divorce, agreed. The very definition of annulment testifies to the fact the marriage took place.
No. The CC has no power to annul a marriage. Period. Only death can “annul” a marriage.

If the CC issues an annulment, it is stating that no marriage ever existed.
So if the marriage was deemed valid when consummated, regardless the reason, the CC should not be granting annulments.
'zactly. And the CC never claims to be annulling valid marriages. 🤷
 
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