Protestants and divorce

[PRmerger]

I wrote this: Are you not aware of the improvements that many divorces bring to many households, or that many re-marriages bring to those persons and families? NOT what your question asks me to show data for. Once again you are ignoring the other side of the coin. I keep acknowledging that divorce has some costs. Will you not acknowledge “the improvements that many divorces bring to many households, or that many re-marriages bring to those persons and families”? Are you claiming that NO persons or marriages or households are improved the second time around? Don’t you personally know of any? (I sure do).

Absolutely, with 100% certitude I can say that if you divorce and re-marry you commit adultery. I can also say that adultery is a fundamental evil-- regardless of whether a man becomes “happier” the 2nd time around and now claims to be a better father.

Divorce, adultery ALWAYS hurts society. ALWAYS hurts the children.

 

[larkin31]

Divorce, adultery ALWAYS hurts society. ALWAYS hurts the children.

well, well.

So this means you have never met a case where the opposite is true? I want to know what you have observed, not what you moralize from your dogma.

And, “hurt” is not the issue, either. Heck, quality parenting “hurts” children sometimes.

 

[PRmerger]

well, well.

So this means you have never met a case where the opposite is true? I want to know what you have observed, not what you moralize from your dogma.

Correct. I have never met a case where divorce and re-marriage improved society.

Really, larkin, you’re going to tell me that divorce has not hurt humanity? Divorce, like greed, is good?

What I have observed is: my parents’ happy 29 year marriage, until my father’s death. My happy 20 year marriage. My inlaws’ happy 36 year marriage, until my FILs death by a drunk driver.

AND! My BIL’s miserable marriage to a divorced woman with 2 children, on the brink of divorce themselves; and my SIL’s divorce and the ensuing drama with her 2 children, one who now suffers with bulimia.

So, yeah, I’d say my experience says: marriage = good
divorce = bad

And, “hurt” is not the issue, either. Heck, quality parenting “hurts” children sometimes.

:whacky:

 

[larkin31]

Correct. I have never met a case where divorce and re-marriage improved society.

Really, larkin, you’re going to tell me that divorce has not hurt humanity? Divorce, like greed, is good?

What I have observed is: my parents’ happy 29 year marriage, until my father’s death. My happy 20 year marriage. My inlaws’ happy 36 year marriage, until my FILs death by a drunk driver.

AND! My BIL’s miserable marriage to a divorced woman with 2 children, on the brink of divorce themselves; and my SIL’s divorce and the ensuing drama with her 2 children, one who now suffers with bulimia.

So, yeah, I’d say my experience says: marriage = good
divorce = bad

Are you serious with this?

Do you have friends, acquaintances, other experiences beyond the home and relatives? And you conclude that the problems of your BIL and SIL are from the divorce (a RESULT) rather than some other CAUSE in the nature of the persons and their relationship?

I won’t even bother listing all the positive examples that I am aware of, and that in no way have effected “society”. I just wanted to know if you have truly never encountered a positive second marriage. I see that your answer is “No.” Well, too bad for you (and more so for those unhappy others, although I doubt that “divorce” is the root cause of the unhappiness). I see why you think the way you do.

BTW, I have been married for 21 years, same woman. I was not arguing from “my experience,” but rather from that that I have witnessed in others, read about in newspapers, seen in my church or work place, neighborhood, etc. I must personally know 100 couples in second marriages (I have been a teacher for 25 years), some of whom have kids from earlier marriages, some of whom don’t, some of whom have mixed families, some of whom have had no kids in either marriage. I know couples that live with ex-spouses in their own house or right next door. Some people have been continually unhappy, and will likely never be happy. Some have had mixed results. Some have been happier and more productive than I.

 

[PRmerger]

Are you serious with this?

Do you have friends, acquaintances, other experiences beyond the home and relatives? And you conclude that the problems of your BIL and SIL are from the divorce (a RESULT) rather than some other CAUSE in the nature of the persons and their relationship?

I won’t even bother listing all the positive examples that I am aware of, and that in no way have effected “society”. I just wanted to know if you have truly never encountered a positive second marriage. I see that your answer is “No.” Well, too bad for you (and more so for those unhappy others, although I doubt that “divorce” is the root cause of the unhappiness). I see why you think the way you do.

BTW, I have been married for 21 years, same woman. I was not arguing from “my experience,” but rather from that that I have witnessed in others, read about in newspapers, seen in my church or work place, neighborhood, etc. I must personally know 100 couples in second marriages (I have been a teacher for 25 years), some of whom have kids from earlier marriages, some of whom don’t, some of whom have mixed families, some of whom have had no kids in either marriage. I know couples that live with ex-spouses in their own house or right next door. Some people have been continually unhappy, and will likely never be happy. Some have had mixed results. Some have been happier and more productive than I.

OhmyGOSH. I. am. simply. incredulous.

Just google “divorce social effects” and see what you get.

Then, we’ll chat.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Are you serious with this?

Do you have friends, acquaintances, other experiences beyond the home and relatives? And you conclude that the problems of your BIL and SIL are from the divorce (a RESULT) rather than some other CAUSE in the nature of the persons and their relationship?

I won’t even bother listing all the positive examples that I am aware of, and that in no way have effected “society”. I just wanted to know if you have truly never encountered a positive second marriage. I see that your answer is “No.” Well, too bad for you (and more so for those unhappy others, although I doubt that “divorce” is the root cause of the unhappiness). I see why you think the way you do.

.

Remember the official position is to keep an out clause as people convince themselves that there was never a marriage to begin with and they use a different English word for a divorce.

 

[larkin31]

OhmyGOSH. I. am. simply. incredulous.

At. what. pray. tell?

 

[larkin31]

Remember the official position is to keep an out clause as people convince themselves that there was never a marriage to begin with and they use a different English word for a divorce.

Yes, I pointed this hypocrisy out earlier. I actually don’t mind that they provide this out; it’s the casting of other divorcees into the sin-barrel that bugs me.

 

[rinnie]

Honestly, I think the baseline issue is that most people don’t really feel that a priest or minister or Bishop or God ought to keep anyone in a loveless, miserable marriage, even if adultery is not the issue (although it often becomes one).

And I don’t blame them.

Quite the opposite larkin, The RCC does not feel it has the power to trump Gods word. Jesus said and the vows say do you take this W or M to be your spouse till death do you part. Now when you both did that and were sincere at the time you bound yourself to eachother and God. Now let me ask you this, where in the bible did God say to a Priest or Bishop you have the power to tear them apart? Do you see what I mean?

The CHurch believes that God does not ever screw up. Only we do. SO if a couple is in a marriage we believe that with the help of God it can be what its meant to be. A good marriage. But in order for this to happen the 2 must become one. That means that each has to give up part of themself to become one. ANd alot of people are selfish and do not want to do this. Humans fail not GOd, God brought them together and with his help will keep them together. All they have to do is ask. Nothing is impossible for God. And nothing is impossible for us with the help of God. So the Priest cannot just say okay, Let me sit here and say let no man come between you to, and then let it happen. He promised God to keep his word. Not mans word, Gods. Do you see what I am saying?

 

[larkin31]

Quite the opposite larkin, The RCC does not feel it has the power to trump Gods word. Jesus said and the vows say do you take this W or M to be your spouse till death do you part. Now when you both did that and were sincere at the time you bound yourself to eachother and God. Now let me ask you this, where in the bible did God say to a Priest or Bishop you have the power to tear them apart? Do you see what I mean?

The CHurch believes that God does not ever screw up. Only we do. SO if a couple is in a marriage we believe that with the help of God it can be what its meant to be. A good marriage. But in order for this to happen the 2 must become one. That means that each has to give up part of themself to become one. ANd alot of people are selfish and do not want to do this. Humans fail not GOd, God brought them together and with his help will keep them together. All they have to do is ask. Nothing is impossible for God. And nothing is impossible for us with the help of God. So the Priest cannot just say okay, Let me sit here and say let no man come between you to, and then let it happen. He promised God to keep his word. Not mans word, Gods. Do you see what I am saying?

Of course I see what you are saying. This is what is always said, and is fine to believe. But I don’t. I consider what you have written to be a false ideal, and even the RCC acknowledges such and allows for annulments for the extreme cases.

BTW, I was not sincerely literally promising “till death do us part.” But I was sincerely promising to do my best and to value my marriage very very highly.

But to call divorce “selfish” is to mischaracterize all the ways that human relationships can go very badly wrong.

 

[prodigal-sun]

Of course I see what you are saying. This is what is always said, and is fine to believe. But I don’t. I consider what you have written to be a false ideal, and even the RCC acknowledges such and allows for annulments for the extreme cases.

BTW, I was not sincerely literally promising “till death do us part.” But I was sincerely promising to do my best and to value my marriage very very highly.

But to call divorce “selfish” is to mischaracterize all the ways that human relationships can go very badly wrong.

I’m sorry Larkin but I don’t see how all of this changes the fact the CHrist told us that man can not undue what God has joined. Whether you believe that we throw some divorce into the sin bin and others we don’t is completely irrelevant and so is your point of view. I’m curious if someone such as yourself can give me an example of a sacramenatl marriage that was anulled. Please show me! If you can’t then your just blowing smoke out your arse.

Peace!

 

[rinnie]

Of course I see what you are saying. This is what is always said, and is fine to believe. But I don’t. I consider what you have written to be a false ideal, and even the RCC acknowledges such and allows for annulments for the extreme cases.

BTW, I was not sincerely literally promising “till death do us part.” But I was sincerely promising to do my best and to value my marriage very very highly.

But to call divorce “selfish” is to mischaracterize all the ways that human relationships can go very badly wrong.

I am sorry that you feel the words of God to be a false ideal. I cannot change that. If you stood in front of God and promised it you should keep it. You should have never said until death do us part if you did not mean it. WHy is that GOds fault or the church’s by the way?

I never said meant divorce was selfish by the way humans are. If they would keep the promise they made to eachother and God they would not need a divorce. But don’t blame God or the CHurch for the faults of humans.

 

[prodigal-sun]

Of course I see what you are saying. This is what is always said, and is fine to believe. But I don’t. I consider what you have written to be a false ideal, and even the RCC acknowledges such and allows for annulments for the extreme cases.

BTW, I was not sincerely literally promising** “till death do us part.” **But I was sincerely promising to do my best and to value my marriage very very highly.

But to call divorce “selfish” is to mischaracterize all the ways that human relationships can go very badly wrong.

I also want you to understand by the pure fact that you mislead your spouse with this promise (til death do us part)and did not actually mean may indeed be grounds for an anullment. Of course this would be one of those bits of info that the investigation for anullmaent would need to uncover and rule on. Maybe it would maybe not. This is why anullments can possible take years.

In my case, when talknig with my priest about filing for anullment I gave him many specifics and he was able to find a letter from the preist that my Mother (bless her soul) made my ex and me go to for marriage prep course. “In this letter the preist specifcally wrote that He firmly discouraged us from marrying and that in no way could the church convalidate or give permission for this marriage”.

Indeed no marriage took place even though we said all the words and signed all the legal papers. I did not even have to go through an anullment process. I had some minor ducuments fto be signed and notorized and Ta daa… Free to MARRY for real!

I’m sure, you have many pooints to make about the fact that the church just calls divorce another english word and other such nonsense, but really truly I tell you your opinion means absoulutely nothing to the Catholic Church.

Peace!

 

[choy]

this is how Protestants view divorce →

divorce is evil
evil is sin
sin is forgiven
so divorce is in

 

[prodigal-sun]

How about another story. Man & woman, devout catholics married for 25 years. The wife has an affair(adultery) Husband leaves the wife gets a civil divorce. Thier assets are divided, the kids go with mom, supported by their father who has visitation rites. Mom meets mister right and seeks marriage within the church. a couple years & a g-notes later & her anullment is not granted. She is still married to her husband whom she divorced. hmm is’nt that something. Of course she is upset and and they all leave the church (not the previous REAL husband) They have since remarried in some protesting sola scrip;ptura church and have been commiting adultery for the last several years. # of the children are a complete mess one being involed in prostitution, another having tried suicide a couple times. THe youngest was thankfully saved by her Dad, who has never taken another wife and as far as I know lives a life of chastity and services to his Church.

Yeah, divorce is one great benefactor for society.

Peace!

 

[Philena]

Please read this list by a divorced Christian woman. Especially those who judge and shame those who have experienced divorce.

divorcehelpforchristianwomen.com/Divorce-List.html

I want Christians to know:

1. It takes 2 people to make a marriage work. Just because I’m divorced doesn’t mean I didn’t do everything in my power to save my marriage.
2. My marriage was not doomed by some sort of fatal flaw in me, so please stop looking for one. Divorce is a heavy enough burden to bear without adding shame to the load.
3. I did not suddenly want to be with only single women all the time. I value men’s (name removed by moderator)ut, and need to witness healthy marriages to heal. My grief is compounded when I’m excluded from groups and friends simply because I’m divorced.
4. I define myself by more than my marital status. I’m also a mom, a reader, a choir member, writer, health-nut, home-owner, dog-lover, friend, and worshiper. Please don’t think you have nothing in common with me just because I’m divorced.
5. I do not need to hear another Bible verse. I need acceptance from people who will affirm my worth and give me a place to belong. Please allow me to be where I’m at even if it makes you uncomfortable.
6. There is no set time when I will be “over it.” Healing needs to happen on many levels. I have to double back through my deepest wounds often to learn new responses. That doesn’t mean, however, that I’m not making progress.
7. Not everything about my ex spouse is bad. Please don’t make a future positive relationship between him and my kids any harder for me by making derogatory remarks about him.
8. I need friends who will be sounding boards to help me think through decisions about my home, career and parenting. I do not need people to tell me what I “should” do or what they would do if they were in my shoes. That only undermines my already fragile self-confidence.
9. If you really want to help me, encourage my children to honor their mother. I take responsibility for being honor-worthy, but on Mother’s Day, my birthday and Christmas my kids could use an extra push in the right direction.
10. I have a lot to offer. The lessons I’ve learned through divorce would probably bless anyone who got to know me. Yes, I’ve been wounded and need the church, but I’ve also discovered that the church needs me just as much.

divorcehelpforchristianwomen.com/Divorce-List.html

 

[larkin31]

I am sorry that you feel the words of God to be a false ideal. I cannot change that. If you stood in front of God and promised it you should keep it. You should have never said until death do us part if you did not mean it. WHy is that GOds fault or the church’s by the way?

I never said meant divorce was selfish by the way humans are. If they would keep the promise they made to eachother and God they would not need a divorce. But don’t blame God or the CHurch for the faults of humans.

I don’t blame God; I no longer believe in one.

I confess that I am not 100% honest nor 100% sincere. I am not bragging, but telling you the truth. I actually believe that we humans frequently make pledges to ENCOURAGE ourselves to try hard even though we could not wager our lives that we would fulfill the “promise.”

You clearly stated that to seek a divorce was selfish. You were unambiguous about it. And I strenuously object to that over-generalization (you made the claim as if it was true by definition).

 

[larkin31]

I also want you to understand by the pure fact that you mislead your spouse with this promise (til death do us part)and did not actually mean may indeed be grounds for an anullment. Of course this would be one of those bits of info that the investigation for anullmaent would need to uncover and rule on. Maybe it would maybe not. This is why anullments can possible take years.

In my case, when talknig with my priest about filing for anullment I gave him many specifics and he was able to find a letter from the preist that my Mother (bless her soul) made my ex and me go to for marriage prep course. “In this letter the preist specifcally wrote that He firmly discouraged us from marrying and that in no way could the church convalidate or give permission for this marriage”.

Indeed no marriage took place even though we said all the words and signed all the legal papers. I did not even have to go through an anullment process. I had some minor ducuments fto be signed and notorized and Ta daa… Free to MARRY for real!

I’m sure, you have many pooints to make about the fact that the church just calls divorce another english word and other such nonsense, but really truly I tell you your opinion means absoulutely nothing to the Catholic Church.

Peace!

So, you give YOUR opinion but then say that a reply is irrelevant.

Well, well.

I will reply anyway: Your annulment sounds just like divorce: You shouldn’t have married, but you did, the priest married you anyway, and it was better to break those vows. I am glad that you were able to do this. The same should be granted to all those whose marriages are failures. Seems only fair and logical. Whether your Church listens to “me” or not is irrelevant.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t blame God; I no longer believe in one.

I’m just going out on a limb, larkin, but were your parents divorced?

I confess that I am not 100% honest nor 100% sincere. I am not bragging, but telling you the truth. I actually believe that we humans frequently make pledges to ENCOURAGE ourselves to try hard even though we could not wager our lives that we would fulfill the “promise.”

No one is 100% honest.

But when you make a vow, you ought to be. I mean, if you can lie when you look into your bride’s eyes, then, really, what’s the point of all of it?

 

[choy]

I want Christians to know:

1. It takes 2 people to make a marriage work. Just because I’m divorced doesn’t mean I didn’t do everything in my power to save my marriage.

there’s the problem right there

the Catholic Church teaches there’s 3 people in a marriage, and all 3 are needed to make it work

1. husband
2. wife
   3… anyone wants to guess who the third one is?