Protestants and divorce

[Young_Thinker]

There likely would not have been a Reformation (which would have been, in my opinion, a good thing).

GKC, if you’re reading this, can you tell me whether I got the history right?

Well, perhaps not an English Reformation. Lutheranism and Calvinism would certainly still exist.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Right. And if he’d been working with a modern day priest, it would never have gotten to the Tribunal - the priest would have simply advised him to forget about it, and resign himself to remaining single for the rest of his life. The reason was that at the time of the wedding, King Henry already knew that the marriage was irregular, and so as not to have the children of that marriage declared illegitimate, he requested a dispensation from the Pope to marry her. Having received the dispensation, there was no way that the Pope could then later decide that the marriage was null.

Catherine of Aragorn gave birth to Mary Tudor, who later became the first female ruler of England in the modern era, so it seems that the marriage must have been consummated. What am I missing?

What about all of those annulments for consanguinity for people who certainly knew that they were related to each other(a recent example being that for one of Mayor Guiliani’s marriages.)?

 

[choy]

i think most Protestants believe that divorce is a sin
its how they handle sin and forgiveness is what makes divorce acceptable to them

its like this…
“oh, you divroced. thats so bad. ask God for forgiveness. okay, God forgave you”
“oh, you’re re-marrying? i think thats a sin. ask God for forgiveness. okay, you’re good to go”

i’ve even heard from some that God wouldn’t be so insensitive as to let you live your life alone after a divorce, and would like very much for you to remarry again. the problem here is that you’re putting your desires to be God’s desires and shape God into something that He is not.

 

[jmcrae]

What about all of those annulments for consanguinity for people who certainly knew that they were related to each other(a recent example being that for one of Mayor Guiliani’s marriages.)?

Did he receive a Papal dispensation at the time of the wedding? (I am thinking, probably not.)

 

[PJM]

=tomarin;6237387]What are the scriptural passages you’re referring to? And doesn’t Christ say very clearly “let no man tear asunder what God has joined together”?

**
Matt.19: 6 “So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”
**
Mark.10: 9 “What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”

This is not the frist time Xzavior has disagreed with what the Bible clearly states.

Mt. 19: " And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He [Jesus] answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh.*** What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” ***[7] They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” He [Jesus] said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. *** And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.” *** The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.”

Hmmmmm. That seems pretty clear cut comming from the mouth of God Himself.

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve even heard from some that God wouldn’t be so insensitive as to let you live your life alone after a divorce, and would like very much for you to remarry again. the problem here is that you’re putting your desires to be God’s desires and shape God into something that He is not.

Right - they are making an idol of their personal opinions, instead of searching out what God’s real teaching is on this subject.

 

[prodigal-sun]

So, you give YOUR opinion but then say that a reply is irrelevant.

Well, well.

I will reply anyway: Your annulment sounds just like divorce: You shouldn’t have married, but you did, the priest married you anyway, and it was better to break those vows. I am glad that you were able to do this. The same should be granted to all those whose marriages are failures. Seems only fair and logical. Whether your Church listens to “me” or not is irrelevant.

No, the Preist did not Marry us! It had to be a civil marriage. I did not get an anulment because I didn’t need one. I certainly did get a civil divorce but was never married in the eyes of the church.

What you are having a hard time understanding is that an anullment does not equate to a divorce which is why your opinion holds no weight. An Anullment is granted when there evidence to an invalid marriage such as yours because of you not believing in the vow.

Peace!

 

[otjm]

I am sorry I don’t know how to do that. Just go to google and punch in CCC 1625-1632 It should take you right to it. Or put in the according to the CCC what is the teachings of Matrimonial Consent. You should be able to get it that way.

You might want to look at the footnotes, as the CCC is not the operative norm for decrees of nullity. They come from Canon law (and I think they start around canon 1053 or thereabouts).

 

[prodigal-sun]

Approximately 85% of Catholics who have gone through a civil divorce never apply for a decree of nullity. Out of the remianing 15%, 7% have obtained a decree of nullity, and 8% have either received a decision that the marriage is valid, or have withdrawn because they did not have sufficient evidence to obtain a decree of nullity.

Whether or not the decree of nullity is “misused”, or inmproperly given is hardly a simple issue; the fact that Protestants “roll their eyes” at the issue is not much different than the fact that Protestants “roll their eyes” at a number of things about the Catholic Church - which include our belief that Christ is truly present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist, that a Catholic who has committed a serious sin must confess to a priest, that the Church has been given the gift, through the Holy Spirit, of infallibility in matters of faith and morals, that faith is handed down through both Sacred Scripture and Tradition… the list goes on and on.

Protestants “roll thier eyes” too often because they know too little of what the Church actually teaches, and instead rely on other sources for their “information”.

NICELY SAID,

Thanks for the stats!

 

[prodigal-sun]

An annulment is a divorce no matter what you call it. It is just a way that satifies your conscience. Saying it never existed, when you went through everything that it takes to be married, is ridiculous. Our church never dissolves a valid marriage either, the married couple decides to dissolve, then a judge makes it legal. Do not judge, lest ye be judged.
God Bless.

The Only one judging here is you!

Please try to understand what a sacramental marriage is before telling the Church what we define as a marriage. The church does not need civil authorities to give it permission to marry a couple. Nor does it allow civil authorities to tell it if a couple is divorced. As with Larkins opinion yours is just as invalid.

Peace!

 

[prodigal-sun]

It takes two people to make a marriage work. However, it only takes one person to destroy a marriage. Sometimes it is best for all concerned - husband, wife, and children, for a divorce to occur. A divorce does not necessarily damage one for life. For the partner who has been abused and wronged, a divorce can be a new beginning and the start of a new life.

An annulment can help in the healing process and let a person move on because you have to examine the things that brought you together in the first place as well as the issues that made the marriage fail. If an annulment is granted then you can have a better idea of what to look for in a partner. If an annulment is not granted then you can live by the teachings of the church and offer up your singleness, or refuse to live by the teachings of the church, re-marry, and become a Protestant.

The Church does not stop couples from getting a civil divorce (Cosidered a Legal seperation) But this does not void a sacramental marriage, neither does an anullment. Anullment is not a divorce.

Peace!

 

[prodigal-sun]

This is pretty much a moot question/point today in lieu of the Second Vatican Council. Catholics per se don’t countenance divorce BUT they do allow annulments which, by today’s definition, are almost the same thing. You want a divorce? You ask for an annulment and 90% of the time, the church will approved. Of course, you still need a civil divorce if you want the law to help enforce child support and/or alimony payments and if you wish to marry again. I am not sure a church annulment is accepted by civil authorities in place of civil divorce; maybe in some states? Anyone know the answer to this?

I’m interested to know where you grabbed these stats from on the 90%? Can you please show a Valid sacramental marriage that was given anullmnet?

Peace!

 

[gretahope]

Hi Liza:

I’m wondering what criterion the Catholic Church uses to determine if a marriage can be annulled? I’m asking because I know of a couple married for about 25 years, 5 adult children and their marriage was annulled.

Any idea how annullments are granted? I asking because I really don’t know. Yes, I could ask my friend, but it’s painful for her. Lots of healing needs to take place, she’s pretty bitter about the whole thing and her children have turned their back on the Catholic Church.

Thanks.

Sounds like me…married 27 years now and I am a new convert to the Catholic Church. Went into marriage VERY unsure, from abusive background, had no where else to go really…but ALWAYS being told in my churches you NEVER divorce…even in physically abusive marriages (only separate, then fast, pray, fast, pray that spouse changes; no resolve if they don’t). There were about 2 yrs where the marriage was “OK”…but it has always felt like “this simply isn’t working (not on the same page at all/round peg-square hole; but we’re married so that’s it.”
For those who would say, “Go to counseling” we’ve been through 7 separate counseling scenarios) and me, private counseling. We’ve had counselors even say that we actually should separate, as they saw our interaction (not fighting, just not together at all)My husband says it’s 90% my problem, and he refuses to go himself (even tho he grew up in an alcoholic family and has classic behaviors). He did not do the homework for other counselors. We simply have no emotional intimacy and never have. And he definitely thinks my converting to the Catholic Church was not one of my better decisions, to say the least.
I love how the Catholic Church allows for simple logic, wherein two people can say “Wow, we got married for utterly the wrong reasons; there’s never been intimacy here.” I know couples that are absolutely miserable b/c the church (not Catholic) offers nothing except "too bad, you’re married, you have no choice…I don’t care how much your husband/wife belittles you, yells at you, emotionally tortures you (or ignores you, which is closer to my situation)…you’re married and there’s nothing you can do.

 

[rinnie]

Sounds like me…married 27 years now and I am a new convert to the Catholic Church. Went into marriage VERY unsure, from abusive background, had no where else to go really…but ALWAYS being told in my churches you NEVER divorce…even in physically abusive marriages (only separate, then fast, pray, fast, pray that spouse changes; no resolve if they don’t). There were about 2 yrs where the marriage was “OK”…but it has always felt like “this simply isn’t working (not on the same page at all/round peg-square hole; but we’re married so that’s it.”
For those who would say, “Go to counseling” we’ve been through 7 separate counseling scenarios) and me, private counseling. We’ve had counselors even say that we actually should separate, as they saw our interaction (not fighting, just not together at all)My husband says it’s 90% my problem, and he refuses to go himself (even tho he grew up in an alcoholic family and has classic behaviors). He did not do the homework for other counselors. We simply have no emotional intimacy and never have. And he definitely thinks my converting to the Catholic Church was not one of my better decisions, to say the least.
I love how the Catholic Church allows for simple logic, wherein two people can say “Wow, we got married for utterly the wrong reasons; there’s never been intimacy here.” I know couples that are absolutely miserable b/c the church (not Catholic) offers nothing except "too bad, you’re married, you have no choice…I don’t care how much your husband/wife belittles you, yells at you, emotionally tortures you (or ignores you, which is closer to my situation)…you’re married and there’s nothing you can do.

Oh Love you should never have to be belittled. You can pray and we can all pray here for you that God can bring some happiness and life into your marriage. I feel so sorry for you.

I have heard from many many couples that there is something that you and your husband can try. It is run by the CC. Please ask the Priest he will tell you. Good luck.

 

[prodigal-sun]

Sounds like me…married 27 years now and I am a new convert to the Catholic Church. Went into marriage VERY unsure, from abusive background, had no where else to go really…but ALWAYS being told in my churches you NEVER divorce…even in physically abusive marriages (only separate, then fast, pray, fast, pray that spouse changes; no resolve if they don’t). There were about 2 yrs where the marriage was “OK”…but it has always felt like “this simply isn’t working (not on the same page at all/round peg-square hole; but we’re married so that’s it.”
For those who would say, “Go to counseling” we’ve been through 7 separate counseling scenarios) and me, private counseling. We’ve had counselors even say that we actually should separate, as they saw our interaction (not fighting, just not together at all)My husband says it’s 90% my problem, and he refuses to go himself (even tho he grew up in an alcoholic family and has classic behaviors). He did not do the homework for other counselors. We simply have no emotional intimacy and never have. And he definitely thinks my converting to the Catholic Church was not one of my better decisions, to say the least.
I love how the Catholic Church allows for simple logic, wherein two people can say “Wow, we got married for utterly the wrong reasons; there’s never been intimacy here.” I know couples that are absolutely miserable b/c the church (not Catholic) offers nothing except "too bad, you’re married, you have no choice…I don’t care how much your husband/wife belittles you, yells at you, emotionally tortures you (or ignores you, which is closer to my situation)…you’re married and there’s nothing you can do.

One of the greatest resources for couples to understand themselves better is a ministry called Retrouvaille. In an abusive relationship it certainly is advisable to remove yourself and children from this type of situation. I will indeed pray for you!

Peace!

 

[rinnie]

One of the greatest resources for couples to understand themselves better is a ministry called Retrouvaille. In an abusive relationship it certainly is advisable to remove yourself and children from this type of situation. I will indeed pray for you!

Peace!

I agree, and yes that is it. Thank-you PS its Retrouvaille, I have heard wonderful things about it. I know if my husband and I had any problems thats the first place I would go.

 

[daeve]

Thats because the CC has shuned then.
So lets say your husband beats you, you can not divorce him?
If your wife is unfaithful in the marriage, you can not divorce her?

I’m a divorced Catholic and nobody has ever shunned me. My civil marriage was dissolved by a civil divorce. In 20 years, I have not dated, or looked for another mate, because my real marriage, the one God created, has not been annulled. Although I probably have grounds for annullment, I have no interest in doing THAT again.

Yes, my husband was unfaithful, and I did divorce him. I filed because there were legal protections I needed and he moved to a state where you needed 18 months residency to file. But I wanted to be sure my children were financially support. I hadn’t worked the entire time we were married because I took care of his business and our kids. Before that I was a dancer – the musical theatre type – and that’s not really an option at 40. So yes, I’m divorced, and no, I’ve never EVER been shunned by the Catholic church. I’m a cantor at my parish, sing in the choir and not once has someone said, “That woman is unworthy.”

The point is you CAN get divorced if need be, but you CAN’T remarry unless your first marriage was invalid.

If you’re happy with your marriage, you don’t think about whether it’s valid or not.

It’s not until you realize that although you and the spouse discussed the important stuff and made promises before marriage, the spouse was just telling you what you wanted to hear. Sometimes you find the other person was married before and lied when asked. Those are two possible things that would make a marriage invalid.

 

[PJM]

=prodigal-sun;6274336]No, the Preist did not Marry us! It had to be a civil marriage. I did not get an anulment because I didn’t need one. I certainly did get a civil divorce but was never married in the eyes of the church.

What you are having a hard time understanding is that an anullment does not equate to a divorce which is why your opinion holds no weight. An Anullment is granted when there evidence to an invalid marriage such as yours because of you not believing in the vow.

Peace!

***An FYI…

The couples “marry themselves by virtue of there exchanged vows” and the priest is but an official witness for the Church who Blesses the union.***

 

[gretahope]

One of the greatest resources for couples to understand themselves better is a ministry called Retrouvaille. In an abusive relationship it certainly is advisable to remove yourself and children from this type of situation. I will indeed pray for you!

Peace!

Can I go to Retrouvaille alone?

 

[gretahope]

I’m a divorced Catholic and nobody has ever shunned me. My civil marriage was dissolved by a civil divorce. In 20 years, I have not dated, or looked for another mate, because my real marriage, the one God created, has not been annulled. Although I probably have grounds for annullment, I have no interest in doing THAT again.

Yes, my husband was unfaithful, and I did divorce him. I filed because there were legal protections I needed and he moved to a state where you needed 18 months residency to file. But I wanted to be sure my children were financially support. I hadn’t worked the entire time we were married because I took care of his business and our kids. Before that I was a dancer – the musical theatre type – and that’s not really an option at 40. So yes, I’m divorced, and no, I’ve never EVER been shunned by the Catholic church. I’m a cantor at my parish, sing in the choir and not once has someone said, “That woman is unworthy.”

The point is you CAN get divorced if need be, but you CAN’T remarry unless your first marriage was invalid.

If you’re happy with your marriage, you don’t think about whether it’s valid or not.

It’s not until you realize that although you and the spouse discussed the important stuff and made promises before marriage, the spouse was just telling you what you wanted to hear. Sometimes you find the other person was married before and lied when asked. Those are two possible things that would make a marriage invalid.

Thanks so much for this wonderful post…very REAL. Yes, I love the Catholic Church, especially my priest, who has seen me through many tearful, angry confession/counselings/gabbing/silent times. He has really, truly been Jesus for me…another reason for converting! He has given me NO pat answers, as so many other kinds of pastors have. He simply listens and leads me to Jesus and validates me! It’s incredible after all these years…You could have never told me 20 years ago that a Catholic priest would treat me so gently and Jesus-like and himself be so real. He became a priest later in life and you can just tell he’s been around the block many times. He smiles and listens and the imparts few, choice words.