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Dorothy
Guest
Perhaps it is best that you receive answers from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
If someone irritates you in their answers, it may be they are not answering as they should.
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If someone irritates you in their answers, it may be they are not answering as they should.
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Mammoths
Guest
Dorothy, if I wanted to know the catholic view of liturgy I certainly would look there. Right now I want to know the power of a self-proclaimed apologetic savant. He says his question is easy and powerful and more efffective than any other plan to stump an evangelical. Let us see.
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Tomyris
Guest
You might be interested in forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1008631 where this was specifically discussed.
If that is the best argument for Catholicism, and it is so easily defeated, then clearly there is no reason to become Catholic, because all other arguments are necessarily weaker and more easily defeated.
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Belshazzar
Guest
Churches with no doctrine have no liturgy.
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Mammoths
Guest
Can you restate that in the form of a syllogism. If doctrine is identical to liturgy that would be news to me.
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Mammoths
Guest
I saw your contribution and thought it was unusually insightful for a Calvinist. I noticed you’re not catholic yet too?
I read the first two pages. Near as I can tell the argument goes like this:
God commands the exact letter of the form of exceptable worship (axiom)
The Bible only gives broad instructions about worship (fact)
Evangelicals and Protestants use common sense/reason/guidence of the Holy Spirit to apply those instructions without claiming their tradition is infallible but just submitted to and consistent with the infallible bible. (Fact)
Therefore they are idolaters and the catholic liturgy is correct. (Conclusion)
I just don’t know where to begin picking that argument apart. It has no rational form. If the proponents of the Catholic solution would formally outline the argument showing which points are axioms and which are lemmas and so on, there might be something there I just can’t currently see.
I am not stumped at all by the question. I am really purpleces trying to figure out what catholic dude was on when he posted the argument. But that is partly because I don’t assume that because the catholic tradition is infallible therefore the catholic tradition is infallible. Let’s see, if the Bible is the highest authority for faith and practice and it gives leeway in format for Sunday gatherings, which it does explicitly, then why is anybody asking about a catholic liturgy at all?
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Mammoths
Guest
That’s why I am on pins and needles waiting for someone to come along and provide a rigorous catholic defense. But I don’t think the catholic solutions to the question I’ve seen so far support this question as the strongest argument for Catholicism because it assumes without support the very distinctives the evangelical rejects on the basis of scripture. And I don’t even mean sola scriptura. I just mean if scripture is true. If these solutions prove the catholic liturgy, than they disprove the idea that the Bible is catholic.
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Tomyris
Guest
- It’s not a Catholic argument. It seems to be the idea of this individual. I don’t think you will find anyone else anywhere else attempting to advance or defend this argument.
- It is not based on logic nor fact, as demonstrated on the thread I linked.
- Notice that CatholicDude has not come along to defend his idea here. He has been on CAF but silent here.
- If you read the linked thread consider the kind of response he is likely to provide, if he responds at all.
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Dorothy
Guest
Thank you for the site of the thread.
I have read a lot of the messages there, but most is over my head.
I must promise myself to steer clear of topics I don’t fully understand, or am sure I can articulate a response to.
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twf
Guest
Actually other liturgies can be valid. Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East are groups that come to mind whose Eucharistic liturgies are accepted by the Catholic Church.
I think you need to take a step back. The real crux of the issue here is Sola Scriptura. What’s your basis for accepting the authority of Scripture in the first place? By what authority do you interpret it? By what authority do you accept the canon you use? Those are the real questions…with that foundation in place, we can get into Scriptural references to liturgy.
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GKC
Guest
I don’t think the OP in the linked thread is particularly compelling, either. But while not a restatement of your last sentence here, there is the concept of Lex orandi, lex credendi
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Mammoths
Guest
Ok, I see this is not going to by the kind of conversation I was hoping to get. Here is my Issue. This is a website for exploring the claims of the Catholic Faith and I believe the Catholic founders sincerely and nobly want people like me who are in a season of discernment about what form their Christian experience should take will come here and be ethically persuaded by solid catholic doctrine. This may not be all the site is about because it is also about helping Catholics understand their own faith more fully. I applaud all of this.
There is an element of Caveat Emptor when it comes to reading the various posts on the forum. I have to be careful to take into account the relative background and expertise of my fellow forum members. I have on occasion run into posts where people seem to claim to be a catholic and then post ideas that are not remotely Christian, knowing they are going against 2000 years of Christian philosophy. The question about liturgy is posed by a forum elder as being the most effective way to stump a protestant and expose the fallacy of Protestantism for being Idolatry. I applaud Catholic Dude for his zeal and prolific effort. While I believe the question is a fair question when asked sincerely, the solution proposed by the proponent is highly uninformed and irrational. I am troubled by the negative light his presentation puts on the catholic church. I wanted to demonstrate that this question is not a slam dunk shortcut to dealing with the real and deeper issues with Protestantism. The fact is, that based on the bible and reason, the general form that protestant Sunday worship takes in many(not all) is quite coherent, moral, and even godly. When he makes statements like, “the bible says nothing about liturgy.” the average bible Christian who has read the bible a lot will think he hasn’t read it.The opposite of Sola Scriptura is not that the bible is false. It is fine to say the bible is a catholic book. Its a little troubling to have someone with 6000 posts as an apologist be so confident and yet so uninformed. Perhaps he is quicker to pontificate than to study.
When engaging in any debate, it is important to begin with common ground. If the axioms of the opponents are in conflict, one must first deal with the foundation of the argument. That is why, if one is going to persuade evangelicals, a little knowledge of the bible is helpful. By the time Catholic dude establishes the axioms of his solution to the question, “Where did you get your liturgy?” His opponent will already be catholic. Therefore, the question is superfluous and at best only brings up axioms for debate. However, the distinctive doctrines of Catholicism are already well known. There is no need to pick a fight and declare intellectual superiority. The case for the authority of catholic tradition is what is in contention. The evidence of that authority is not the simple fact that protestants reject it. In fact, at the church I currently attend, we get our “liturgy” from the bible. Everything we do comes directly from it. I can go into detail about that but why? The real issue here for me is the misrepresentation and apologetic malpractice Catholic Dude offers to the underlying question which is, “Who is the final authority for faith and practice and how does He make His will known to man?” If he would avoid speculation and use the information provided him by his church, including scripture, Catholic dude will make a fine apologist someday. I offer him the right hand of fellowship.:yup:
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GKC
Guest
In the linked thread, and in this one, how many self-identified RCs have agreed with Catholic Dude’s assertions on the question?Ok, I see this is not going to by the kind of conversation I was hoping to get. Here is my Issue. This is a website for exploring the claims of the Catholic Faith and I believe the Catholic founders sincerely and nobly want people like me who are in a season of discernment about what form their Christian experience should take will come here and be ethically persuaded by solid catholic doctrine. This may not be all the site is about because it is also about helping Catholics understand their own faith more fully. I applaud all of this.
There is an element of Caveat Emptor when it comes to reading the various posts on the forum. I have to be careful to take into account the relative background and expertise of my fellow forum members. I have on occasion run into posts where people seem to claim to be a catholic and then post ideas that are not remotely Christian, knowing they are going against 2000 years of Christian philosophy. The question about liturgy is posed by a forum elder as being the most effective way to stump a protestant and expose the fallacy of Protestantism for being Idolatry. I applaud Catholic Dude for his zeal and prolific effort. While I believe the question is a fair question when asked sincerely, the solution proposed by the proponent is highly uninformed and irrational. I am troubled by the negative light his presentation puts on the catholic church. I wanted to demonstrate that this question is not a slam dunk shortcut to dealing with the real and deeper issues with Protestantism. The fact is, that based on the bible and reason, the general form that protestant Sunday worship takes in many(not all) is quite coherent, moral, and even godly. When he makes statements like, “the bible says nothing about liturgy.” the average bible Christian who has read the bible a lot will think he hasn’t read it.The opposite of Sola Scriptura is not that the bible is false. It is fine to say the bible is a catholic book. Its a little troubling to have someone with 6000 posts as an apologist be so confident and yet so uninformed. Perhaps he is quicker to pontificate than to study.
When engaging in any debate, it is important to begin with common ground. If the axioms of the opponents are in conflict, one must first deal with the foundation of the argument. That is why, if one is going to persuade evangelicals, a little knowledge of the bible is helpful. By the time Catholic dude establishes the axioms of his solution to the question, “Where did you get your liturgy?” His opponent will already be catholic. Therefore, the question is superfluous and at best only brings up axioms for debate. However, the distinctive doctrines of Catholicism are already well known. There is no need to pick a fight and declare intellectual superiority. The case for the authority of catholic tradition is what is in contention. The evidence of that authority is not the simple fact that protestants reject it. In fact, at the church I currently attend, we get our “liturgy” from the bible. Everything we do comes directly from it. I can go into detail about that but why? The real issue here for me is the misrepresentation and apologetic malpractice Catholic Dude offers to the underlying question which is, “Who is the final authority for faith and practice and how does He make His will known to man?” If he would avoid speculation and use the information provided him by his church, including scripture, Catholic dude will make a fine apologist someday. I offer him the right hand of fellowship.:yup:
Added:
If by “forum elder”, you are referring to the title under his name, I think Catholic Dude is a Senior Member. These titles are governed by the number of posts, not necessarily the quality. I’m a Forum Master. Which means I’m garrulous and have been here for years.
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GKC
Guest
In passing, note my addition above.
I’ve seen RCs assert stuff that is not only odd, but historically inaccurate. People are people, some more so than others.
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GKC
Guest
Stay long enough, you’ll get there. It all adds up.
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twf
Guest
Mind you…it takes a lot of discipline. You and I have both been on this forum since before the smart phone revolution reshaped society… yet I’m just a plain old Regular Member… and that’s at a post a day for over a dozen years. You have to really apply yourself to this forum to reach the grand heights of Master or Elder.
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