Protestants and Holy Communion

[tqualey]

Hi, Inkaneer,

I am glad you added that qualification “Public”. This is an important distinction because, for example, today is Divine Mercy Sunday - and its origin is the private revelation given by Christ to St. Faustenia. ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/backgr.htm

God bless

I do believe there is a word missing. It should read that **public **revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. Private revelation continues but one is not obligated to believe anything that is contained in private revelations unless, of course, it is also contained in public revelation.

 

[PoorKnight]

…I enjoyed your post; there were several points about Luther that I did not know… do you have a link to the source? (I like to include links to sources when I cite them.)

Maran atha!

Angel

I would be happy to. Some of them came from Catholic Answers tracts, some came from “If Protestantism is True” by Devin Rose and some came from one of numerous Scott Hahn audios.

Which one(s) specifically were you thinking of?

God Bless

 

[PoorKnight]

Then you must reject any translation, and accept only transliterations.

I accept what Christ’s vicar says is approved translations. Luther didn’t.

Find a Luther translation where he ripped out" the D-C’s.

Sematics. He placed them in the back under a section called “appocrypha” or hidden as in hidden from true cannon… Interestingly he also placed the book of James right before it…

Excommunication notwithstanding, I presume.

and… he could have still sworn fidelity to the Church…

Then you are not looking. There are plenty of us out here. But one must keep in mind the freedom Lutherans have regarding the marian beliefs, with he exceptions of Virgin Birth and Holy Theotokos.

Cite the Lutheran catechism please then. “Freedom”? ‘Sola Scriptura’ doesn’t give freedom… Luke 1:48 “…from now on all ages will call me Blessed”. Lutherans should not have that freedom. She is to be called ‘Blessed’ per Sola Scriptura

“Pay all their due… respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.” Romans 13:7

Honor is due The Blessed Virgin via Lk 1:48 and we are commanded to do so by Romans 13:7…

There is NO freedom here. This idea of “a theology for every head” is a Luther creation. If I could find the full quote, I believe he even said it in a complaint…

The LCMS is very anti-abortion, to the point where our president in front of congress stood shoulder to shoulder with our Catholic Bishop Lori to condemn HHS. And while our position on contraceptives is not outright ban as it is in the CC, it is also not willy-nilly use them whenever you want either.

Great LCMS might be anit-abortion but that is NOT Pro-Life.

Luther was Anti-Contraception Martin Luther said, “[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him.” – Per Catholic Answers.

Again, find me in Luther’s catechism where it allows for contraception.

Yes, I fnd the language dated, and frankly unnecessary in this day and time. Clearly Pope Benedcict, for example, is not anti-Christ. Not in his words and actions could anyone believe such. The charge is against the claims the papacy makes for itself. As for Westminster, it isn’t a Lutheran Confession.
So, let’s be clear: the history of our communions is full of charges and insults against each other. Perhaps we should do more to seek to change that.

Agreed it should be changed. But it isn’t. Why would someone believe they have the authority to change what their church believes anyway? Why belong to something that is un-biblical, against Sola Scriptura and wrong?

It’s stuff like this that brought me back to the Catholic Church. The blatent contradictions.

And I agree with this.

Luther doesn’t deny AS, and the confessions profess a desire to maintain them.

Appreciated.

Jon

If you agreed with it, you’d agree with the Catholic Church’s entire catechism…

 

[JonNC]

=PoorKnight;9187127]I accept what Christ’s vicar says is approved translations. Luther didn’t.

And neither did Cardinal Cajetan, a Luther contemporary. the fact is that Catholic had the** right ** to question the Deuterocanon until Trent. Luther was dead by trent.

Sematics. He placed them in the back under a section called “appocrypha” or hidden as in hidden from true cannon… Interestingly he also placed the book of James right before it…

Actually, his placing accurately reflected the concerns about the D-C’s and the antilegomena from the early Church. So far as I know, there was no dogmatic statement as to the placing of the books of scripture.

and… he could have still sworn fidelity to the Church…

It is curious, as he was required to recant things which was later supported by the Church.
But then, trent happened after his death.

Cite the Lutheran catechism please then. “Freedom”? ‘Sola Scriptura’ doesn’t give freedom… Luke 1:48 “…from now on all ages will call me Blessed”. Lutherans should not have that freedom. She is to be called ‘Blessed’ per Sola Scriptura

“Pay all their due… respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.” Romans 13:7

Honor is due The Blessed Virgin via Lk 1:48 and we are commanded to do so by Romans 13:7…

There is NO freedom here. This idea of “a theology for every head” is a Luther creation. If I could find the full quote, I believe he even said it in a complaint…

She is called blessed. The confessions call her Blessed. Is referring to her as Blessed now dogmatic? What I speaking of were things such as the IC, etc.

No freedm? How many verses of scripture are not dogmatically interpreted by Rome? You have lots of freedom.

Great LCMS might be anit-abortion but that is NOT Pro-Life.

Luther was Anti-Contraception Martin Luther said, “[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him.” – Per Catholic Answers.

Again, find me in Luther’s catechism where it allows for contraception.

Luther’s Catechism(s) don’t speak to the issue, as des not the rest of the confessions. All I can tell you is read the LCMS website if it concerns you so much.

Agreed it should be changed. But it isn’t. Why would someone believe they have the authority to change what their church believes anyway? Why belong to something that is un-biblical, against Sola Scriptura and wrong?

I have no idea what you are aying here.

It’s stuff like this that brought me back to the Catholic Church. The blatent contradictions.

I truly hope you are blessed there in word and sacrament.

If you agreed with it, you’d agree with the Catholic Church’s entire catechism…

The Augsburg Confession agrees with it.

Jon

 

[inkaneer]

Luther doesn’t deny AS, and the confessions profess a desire to maintain them.
Jon

AS = Apostolic Succession [for those who don’t know]. How can the Lutheran denominations maintain something they inherently deny? Church authority is at the heart of Apostolic Succession. Without church authority Apostolic Succession is utterly devoid of any meaning. Apostolic Succession began with the consecration of the first bishop [Mathias] in Acts 1. Every bishop in the Catholic, Coptic and Orthgodox churches can trace his lineage back to one of the Apostles. Lutheranism is devoid of Apostolic Succession because while priests, sisters and monks may have left the church for Luther’s theology, no bishopsjoined him. And that is where the authority lies in the Bishops. So the confessions profess a desire to maintain something that is unmaintainable in Lutheranism because it was never there to begin with.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Inkaneer,

Looks like you have found another logical blunder - take away the Church founded by Christ and items like Authority and AS are simply meaningless…

God bless

AS = Apostolic Succession [for those who don’t know]. How can the Lutheran denominations maintain something they inherently deny? Church authority is at the heart of Apostolic Succession. Without church authority Apostolic Succession is utterly devoid of any meaning. Apostolic Succession began with the consecration of the first bishop [Mathias] in Acts 1. Every bishop in the Catholic, Coptic and Orthgodox churches can trace his lineage back to one of the Apostles. Lutheranism is devoid of Apostolic Succession because while priests, sisters and monks may have left the church for Luther’s theology, no bishopsjoined him. And that is where the authority lies in the Bishops. So the confessions profess a desire to maintain something that is unmaintainable in Lutheranism because it was never there to begin with.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

I am still waiting for your response to Post #177 that I made to you previously.

God bless

 

[Cinette]

Hi, JonNC,

I still do not understand the distinction you have made. Maybe this is overly simplistic, but either Luther added ‘alone’ or he didn’t. You claim his intent was to clarify - but, that really does not hold up to serious examination as has been pointed out.
,
It really looks like he added ‘alone’ because, as was previously pointed out, it was not there before he did his translation, he became fixated with ‘along’ (e.g., Grace Alone, Scripture Alone, Christ Alone) and after his translation, ‘alone’ now appears.

I really am interested in your response.

Gjod bless

*Yes Tom, that 5-letter word ALONE did much damage and influenced generations of denominations! I am amazed that JonNC cannot see this. This is why I say that he has that “club” mentality - “I belong to the Luther club! I am a Luther fan!” Jon insists on defending Luther despite the evidence of history! It is sad really.

*

 

[Loveolivia]

http://www.castoffdebt.comlol

 

[Michael_Francis]

Having departed from topic, this thread is now closed.