Protestants and James 2:14-26

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joemizzi said:
But you contradict the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, expressed so forcefully in the Council of Trent, Session VI, Canon 32.

ā€œIf anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.ā€

Iā€™m glad, however, that you reject the official Catholic position; you are, in effect, an evangelical.
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I Absolutely do not reject the official Catholic postion. I embrace it and nothing I said above contradicts anything in the snippet you included from Trent. Tell me where you think it does.
 
Justification is achieved only when ā€œfaith and good worksā€ act together. The whole conversation hinges on the difference between works of the law and good works. There is a distinction. Works of the law refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor (which is impossible). Good works, on the other hand, are done in grace with faith in Christ.
 
joemizzi said:
But you contradict the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, expressed so forcefully in the Council of Trent, Session VI, Canon 32.

ā€œIf anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.ā€

Iā€™m glad, however, that you reject the official Catholic position; you are, in effect, an evangelical.
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Joe you appear unable or unwilling to comprehend the Catholic position. Perhaps you lack the education to directly interact with the documents from the council of Trent, or perhaps you do not wish to understand the material. I cannot say. All I know is that what you have presented here is nothing other than the same old misunderstandings that John Martignoni dismantled during your email exchanges with him over a year ago. If you were truly seeking the truth you would have learned from him. Perhaps it would be helpful if I included those exchanges on this thread for you. Would you like that Joe?

Blessings!
 
unacanta said:
Good news, we need more James White people in the world!
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Why?

White has been hammered repeatedly by many (though not all) Catholic Apologists in the debates that he loves so much, he has a ā€œdoctorateā€ from a unaccredited diploma mill, and and his relationship with his sister, Patti Bonds, who was abused for years by their father, is anything but Christian.

What is the attraction? šŸ¤·
 
Randy_Carson said:
Why?

White has been hammered repeatedly by many (though not all) Catholic Apologists in the debates that he loves so much, he has a ā€œdoctorateā€ from a unaccredited diploma mill, and and his relationship with his sister, Patti Bonds, who was abused for years by their father, is anything but Christian.

What is the attraction? šŸ¤·
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That has to be one of the most absurd statements I have heard. When is a Christian based upon what school they attend or what has happened to a family member? As usual, the RCC position is always Man Centered rather than God Centered.

:rolleyes:
 
grace_singh said:
i would respond that works can not save you, or reconcile you to God, as nothing we do can bridge that gap. only Jesus can, and it is by faith and His grace we are saved, and reconciled to our Father.

yet that is not the end of itā€¦ one doesnā€™t just ā€œbelieveā€ and then sit like a rock oneā€™s entire life, though it seems many Protestants assume one can do this. after one has been saved and grafted onto Christ, He expects us to bear fruits as His disciples.

these fruits are our works, our deeds, our attitutudes, our love for others and for God in Christā€™s Name. so faith without works is dead. works can not intitially save or help you, but Jesus expects them as a result of being alive in Him, and in obedience to His commandments. and He warns also that any tree which does not bear fruit will be cast into the fire.

faith without works, without discipleship, is dead. one would question whether or not that person who has ā€œfaithā€ with no fruits is truly grafted onto Christ. intellectual faith in Jesus or conceptual agreement with a creed does not equal a living, personal, dynamic faith in and relationship with Christ Jesus.
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It amazes me how close you do come to Catholic teaching here with your interpritation. At first glance I donā€™t really see anything wrong with what you have said. Allow me to add to it tough
James views intellectual assent a good thing (ā€œyou do wellā€) v19 but not as a thing that will save us by itself. ?s 14,17, 20, 24, 26. James does not contradict Paul, because the works that must be added to intellectual assent are not works of law or Torah. If he said that, he would contradict Paul.

He also does not contradict Paul because he is talking about a different kind of JUSTIFICATION than Paul typically does. James is discussing ongoing justification, or growth in righteousness, as illustrated by his citing the example of Abraham being justified when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. That was years after he had been initially justified and, since Abraham was not repenting of sin at the time, we know that it is a progressive, ongoing justification that is being discussed - what some call sanctification and sanctification does indeed involve the performance of good works and not intellectual assent alone.
 
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