Protestants and James 2:14-26

[catholic1seeks]

Usually James 2:14-26 is used to respond to the Protestant belief in faith alone. When a Protestant is shown these verses, what does he or she usually say? What are their common arguments?

I once heard that the faith mentioned in the verses means merely a “dead” faith, not a true faith. But that doesn’t make sense with even the very last verse: “For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.” It would be redundant to say “so also dead faith without works is dead.”

So what are their counter-arguments?

JAMES 2:14-26

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he has faith, but has not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be warmed and filled; yet give them not those
things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?

17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

18 But some man will say: You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without works; and I will show you, by works, my faith.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well: the devils also believe and tremble.

20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Do you see that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him
to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

**Also, I don’t mean to generalize; I realize there might be several ideas on the relationship between faith and works in the Protestant community. But faith alone was one of the foundations of the Protestant Reformation…

 

[MarcoPolo]

I have been frustrated in the past just in getting any response to this passage. Usually you’ll get a “trump verse” in reply, like Romans 3:28 or Romans 4’s story of Abraham. I don’t know if I’ve ever heard a Protestant directly confront James 2:24 or 2:26 and I’ve had a lot of conversations about this passage with them.

I know Jimmy Akin once described a Protestant argument he heard that went something like this: When James says faith apart from works is dead, he means “dead faith.” Now you can draw out the problem with that line of thinking in a number of ways pretty easily, but it is an argument that exists…

There was one Protestant in the 16th century who addressed the book of James by trying to discredit it as Scripture…

 

[Fair_Lady]

Great question. My answer in a nutshell is that we are saved by grace through faith, however our faith must be alive. A faith without works is dead and a dead faith is not a saving faith.

(Ephesians 2:8-9) - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”

(Rom. 3:20, 28) - “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”

(Galatians 2:16) - “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”

 

[grace_singh]

i would respond that works can not save you, or reconcile you to God, as nothing we do can bridge that gap. only Jesus can, and it is by faith and His grace we are saved, and reconciled to our Father.

yet that is not the end of it… one doesn’t just “believe” and then sit like a rock one’s entire life, though it seems many Protestants assume one can do this. after one has been saved and grafted onto Christ, He expects us to bear fruits as His disciples.

these fruits are our works, our deeds, our attitutudes, our love for others and for God in Christ’s Name. so faith without works is dead. works can not intitially save or help you, but Jesus expects them as a result of being alive in Him, and in obedience to His commandments. and He warns also that any tree which does not bear fruit will be cast into the fire.

faith without works, without discipleship, is dead. one would question whether or not that person who has “faith” with no fruits is truly grafted onto Christ. intellectual faith in Jesus or conceptual agreement with a creed does not equal a living, personal, dynamic faith in and relationship with Christ Jesus.

 

[RedBert]

James is discussing hypocrisy:

God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who “say” that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works.

In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus’ comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.

There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith.

 

[tmancath]

Great question. My answer in a nutshell is that we are saved by grace through faith, however our faith must be alive. A faith without works is dead and a dead faith is not a saving faith.

(Ephesians 2:8-9) - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”

(Rom. 3:20, 28) - “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”

(Galatians 2:16) - “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”

i would respond that works can not save you, or reconcile you to God, as nothing we do can bridge that gap. only Jesus can, and it is by faith and His grace we are saved, and reconciled to our Father.

yet that is not the end of it… one doesn’t just “believe” and then sit like a rock one’s entire life, though it seems many Protestants assume one can do this. after one has been saved and grafted onto Christ, He expects us to bear fruits as His disciples.

these fruits are our works, our deeds, our attitutudes, our love for others and for God in Christ’s Name. so faith without works is dead. works can not intitially save or help you, but Jesus expects them as a result of being alive in Him, and in obedience to His commandments. and He warns also that any tree which does not bear fruit will be cast into the fire.

faith without works, without discipleship, is dead. one would question whether or not that person who has “faith” with no fruits is truly grafted onto Christ. intellectual faith in Jesus or conceptual agreement with a creed does not equal a living, personal, dynamic faith in and relationship with Christ Jesus.

These are most honest responses and they are correct responses. There are Protestants that do know our concept of faith and works

 

[Irish_Becca]

My question is, If faith without works is dead, then aren’t works just as important as faith for salvation? Without them, one does not get into Heaven, right?

 

[LaSalle]

Great question. My answer in a nutshell is that we are saved by grace through faith, however our faith must be alive. A faith without works is dead and a dead faith is not a saving faith.

So to have a live faith you need works? If you don’t have works, you don’t have faith?

Sounds like you’re almost Catholic!

 

[grace_singh]

because works don’t initially save us, nor can they.

i would answer that we are saved by faith and grace, and works are to be the fruits of our salvation. we as Christians do not do works to get to heaven or in hopes of earning our way into God’s good graces, rather we do them out of gratitude, and because the same Spirit of Christ now lives in us.

we do them because of what Jesus has already done for us, not to get closer to heaven. we are assured of heaven and eternal life because of our faith, not our works (John 11:25-26), and if our faith is real and is the fruit of God’s grace and power at work in our lives, and if we are then truly alive in and to and because of Christ, we will as Christians bear the fruits of good works and rightousness.

remember that not all of the seeds the farmer sowed grew the same way, landed in the same soil, or yielded a harvest.

My question is, If faith without works is dead, then aren’t works just as important as faith for salvation? Without them, one does not get into Heaven, right?

 

[LaSalle]

i would respond that works can not save you, or reconcile you to God, as nothing we do can bridge that gap. only Jesus can, and it is by faith and His grace we are saved, and reconciled to our Father.

Here’s the thing - The Church does not teach that works ALONE saves. Hasn’t taught that in her entire 2000++ years of existence … so how this belief came about is quite puzzling.

yet that is not the end of it… one doesn’t just “believe” and then sit like a rock one’s entire life, though it seems many Protestants assume one can do this. after one has been saved and grafted onto Christ, He expects us to bear fruits as His disciples.

these fruits are our works, our deeds, our attitutudes, our love for others and for God in Christ’s Name. so faith without works is dead. works can not intitially save or help you, but Jesus expects them as a result of being alive in Him, and in obedience to His commandments. and He warns also that any tree which does not bear fruit will be cast into the fire.

Seems to me that while protestants may say faith ALONE … their explanation always seems to include the necessity for works too. Even if it is for proof of faith (Proof for whom, is a good question)

faith without works, without discipleship, is dead. one would question whether or not that person who has “faith” with no fruits is truly grafted onto Christ. intellectual faith in Jesus or conceptual agreement with a creed does not equal a living, personal, dynamic faith in and relationship with Christ Jesus.

So … a LIVING faith MUST be accompanied by works?

Isn’t that what the Catholics have been saying since from the start?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Usually James 2:14-26 is used to respond to the Protestant belief in faith alone. When a Protestant is shown these verses, what does he or she usually say? What are their common arguments?

I once heard that the faith mentioned in the verses means merely a “dead” faith, not a true faith. But that doesn’t make sense with even the very last verse: “For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.” It would be redundant to say “so also dead faith without works is dead.”

So what are their counter-arguments?

JAMES 2:14-26

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he has faith, but has not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be warmed and filled; yet give them not those
things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?

17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

18 But some man will say: You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without works; and I will show you, by works, my faith.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well: the devils also believe and tremble.

20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Do you see that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him
to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

**Also, I don’t mean to generalize; I realize there might be several ideas on the relationship between faith and works in the Protestant community. But faith alone was one of the foundations of the Protestant Reformation…

Catholics do not distinguish justification and sanctification. Justified is on faith alone; sanctification is the process which gives the outside world evidence of our justification through the works which God preordained that the man/woman of God would walk in them as a testimony to the glory of God.

Looking at it from any other angle will cause a contradiction to Pauls letters to the Ephesians 2 and Romans 4; AKA a contradiction from God. Once you reject the separation, then you can question anything God has said and done; then you can believe whatever you want concerning Scripture; like lose and regain and lose and regain your salvation by your good deeds or works or lack of such.

 

[grace_singh]

i’m not saying the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that, LaSalle.

what i am saying is that we can not do anything to reconcile ourselves to God. no work we do can save us, or bridge that gap between our sinful nature and God’s holiness. only faith in Christ and His redeeming and saving and cleaninsing grace can do that.

but saying “oh, i believe…” and doing nothing with your salvation, for the Kingdom, or as a Christian is not true Christian faith. you may believe intellectually, but as a Christian we are asked to follow Jesus once saved and reconciled to the Father through Him.

works can not save us (initially bridge that gap), but works are expected in Christ and because of Him, and He tells us that if we are truly in Him, we will bear fruit.

this is certainly what i find the Bible teaching, how far that is from traditional Protestant theology or from certain ideas within Protestant theology, i don’t know.

Here’s the thing - The Church does not teach that works ALONE saves. Hasn’t taught that in her entire 2000++ years of existence … so how this belief came about is quite puzzling.

So … a LIVING faith MUST be accompanied by works?

Isn’t that what the Catholics have been saying since from the start?

 

[LaSalle]

because works don’t initially save us, nor can they.

Yeah I agree … so who’s been saying that they do? Catholics? … errr, we haven’t, you know?!

i would answer that we are saved by faith and grace, and works are to be the fruits of our salvation. we as Christians do not do works to get to heaven or in hopes of earning our way into God’s good graces, rather we do them out of gratitude, and because the same Spirit of Christ now lives in us.

OK, I don’t follow … first, works were required as a sign that there was living faith, now it is the result of living faith? What is it?

You keep mentioning this notion that there are a bunch of people who claim that they have to earn their salvation … who are these people you keep referring to???

Do check out this link and this one.

 

[LaSalle]

i’m not saying the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that, LaSalle.

what i am saying is that we can not do anything to reconcile ourselves to God. no work we do can save us, or bridge that gap between our sinful nature and God’s holiness. only faith in Christ and His redeeming and saving and cleaninsing grace can do that.

but saying “oh, i believe…” and doing nothing with your salvation, for the Kingdom, or as a Christian is not true Christian faith. you may believe intellectually, but as a Christian we are asked to follow Jesus once saved and reconciled to the Father through Him.

works can not save us (initially bridge that gap), but works are expected in Christ and because of Him, and He tells us that if we are truly in Him, we will bear fruit.

this is certainly what i find the Bible teaching, how far that is from traditional Protestant theology or from certain ideas within Protestant theology, i don’t know.

So why the mantra ‘FAITH ALONE’?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

because works don’t initially save us, nor can they.

i would answer that we are saved by faith and grace, and works are to be the fruits of our salvation. we as Christians do not do works to get to heaven or in hopes of earning our way into God’s good graces, rather we do them out of gratitude, and because the same Spirit of Christ now lives in us.

we do them because of what Jesus has already done for us, not to get closer to heaven. we are assured of heaven and eternal life because of our faith, not our works (John 11:25-26), and if our faith is real and is the fruit of God’s grace and power at work in our lives, and if we are then truly alive in and to and because of Christ, we will as Christians bear the fruits of good works and rightousness.

remember that not all of the seeds the farmer sowed grew the same way, landed in the same soil, or yielded a harvest.

you got the gospel of grace and have reconciled James to Romans and Ephesians…

 

[Melkite_Sword]

because works don’t initially save us, nor can they.

, not initially. But what about after conversion?

i would answer that we are saved by faith and grace, and works are to be the fruits of our salvation. we as Christians do not do works to get to heaven or in hopes of earning our way into God’s good graces, rather we do them out of gratitude, and because the same Spirit of Christ now lives in us.

Yes, but suppose we sinned?, bad works. can we lose our salvation? After all ‘We are not saved by faith alone, but by our works’.

Peace

 

[RedBert]

I have been seriously studying the Bible for about 15 + years, and have gone through James in various studies about 3 times.

honestly , I don’t see what the controversy is , we resolve the " issue " in about 15 seconds.

If your faith doesn’t change you , your “faith” doesn’t save you.

Good works is just one of the evidences of a life changing faith , another one is love.

in the same way…

*1 John 1:5 God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

1 John 2:9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar**. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God,** whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.*

You are saved (justified) through faith in Christ.
Sanctification (defined as become more like Christ) in an ongoing process that is a result of justification.

If the Thief on the Cross had lived we would expect to see a changed life as evidenced through continue sanctification leading to good works, love, charity. patience, etc
See 2 Peter chapter 1

 

[Cathhsmom]

I appreciate hearing what some of the Protestant Christian replies are to this. I have wondered the same thing myself. But, just to clarify something that I have seen here from both sides, we are not saved through faith and works. We are saved through the grace of God alone. We show that we are saved by our faith and works. They do go along with the process, but are not what saves us.

 

[RedBert]

We show that we are saved by our faith and works. They do go along with the process, but are not what saves us.

i don’t think protestants would word it that way: " faith and works. " as we would not bring “works” into any part of justification

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is* not from works**, so no one may boast.

For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. *" -Ephesians 2 NAB

All of of my Bible commentaries mention that the CONTEXT is that James is dealing with the hypocrites in the church.

People who say that they have faith , yet there lives show no evidence of it.

We call them “pew potatoes”, other than where they are at 11:00 on a Sunday, you would not see any evidence that they are Christian. no works , no love , no growth .

We are not to judge any one’s heart. but…" even the demons believe"

This is what James is writing about

 

[Fair_Lady]

I’m enjoying reading the responses of several well grounded Christians here!

I believe that we can examine ourselves to see if we’re on the right track here and that our motivation for doing good works is right in the crux of this matter. When we do good works, are we doing them to try and earn God’s good graces and a place in heaven? Or are we doing them because the Holy Spirit is motivating us as we are being transformed in the likeness of Jesus Christ. If it’s the first, we need to know and realize that we can’t do enough good to merit a place for us in heaven. Isaiah 64:6 tells us that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. We must rely on the righteousness of Jesus Christ for our eternal salvation.

As saints, though, we do need to persevere in our faith and rely on the continuing work and goodness of Christ who forgives our sins as we confess them. In 1 John 1:9 we read, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”