Protestants and James 2:14-26

[catholic1seeks]

We have to remember that many times when the writers say “by faith and not by works,” the immediate context or the context of the epistle in general will show us that the writer meant works of the law, works of the Torah, like circumcision.

See this, for example:

*So even if Paul were using “works” to mean “good works” in Ephesians 2:8–9, there is no conflict with Catholic theology. However, Paul probably does not mean “good works.” Normally when he says “works,” he means “works of the Law”—those done out of the Law of Moses. His point is to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and not by obeying the Mosaic Law. Jews may not boast of having a privileged relationship with God because they keep the Mosaic Law and its requirement of circumcision (Rom. 2:6–11, 17–21, 25–29, 3:21–22, 27–30).

Paul discusses how Jew and Gentiles are united together in the body of Christ and mentions works in connection with boasting, before turning to the whole subject of circumcision and membership in Christ: “Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision . . . remember that you were at that time separated from Christ. . . . But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the Law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two . . . and might reconcile us both to God in one body. . . . So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God” (Eph. 2:11–19).

Paul is probably using “works” and “boasting” here as he does in Romans, of Jews boasting before Gentiles of having privilege with God due to their keeping the Mosaic Law. He says we are not saved in that manner, but by faith—meaning faith in Christ—so no one, either Jew or Gentile, can boast of having a more privileged position with God. We are all saved on the same basis—through faith in Christ and union in his body, the Church. *​

“NOT BY WORKS”
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706chap.asp

 

[RedBert]

back to the OP

…Also, I don’t mean to generalize; I realize there might be several ideas on the relationship between faith and works in the Protestant community. But faith alone was one of the foundations of the Protestant Reformation…

you are so right: “faith alone was one of the foundations of the Protestant Reformation”

from here, and availalible elsewhere:
au.christiantoday.com/article/luther-rome-and-the-bible/5255.htm

"Pope quotes Luther: Sola Fide. Luther, the pope had told his audience, had been right to insist in sola fide, that a believer was justified by faith alone!

"Disagreement over this doctrine had been at the heart of the Reformation in the 16th century, splitting Christianity in western Europe. Yet, said the pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works, that saved him. "

"Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words as ‘justified by faith alone’, the well-known sola fide, Benedict affirmed, "

 

[crazzeto]

I listend to a pod cast of a baptist minister not too far from my home yesterday while at the office who had the cajones to take on John Ch 2, I respect him for that. He was trying to explain it this way, as he lead his congregation through the treacherous waters of John 2, he had to stop, and try and make the claim that “well Abraham was already justified, this just proved it”. He supported this by God’s earlier statements that Abram’s seed would multiply greatly, but what he sort of skipped over was this, at the end of Gen 22

16 By my own self have I sworn, saith the Lord: because thou hast done this thing, and hast not spared thy only begotten son for my sake: 17 I will bless thee, and I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is by the sea shore: thy seed shall possess the gates of their enemies. 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because thou hast obeyed my voice. 19 Abraham returned to his young men, and they went to Bersabee together, and he dwelt there. 20 After these things, it was told Abraham that Melcha also had borne children to Nachor his brother.

God clearly states that Abraham is justified, because he has done this thing. James, as I think the OP already quoted says the very same when he says “see how Abraham was justified by works”. James wasn’t stupid, he knows the difference between what actually justifies you, and what is merely a sign that someone might be justified. I didn’t end up listening to the whole podcast, I had a headache after previously watching some of a Pentecostal service and I needed to take a break from my explorations into what exactly it is Protestants are doing in their services. But I do wonder if the Minister got as far as:

24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Or if he included:

19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

On one more note, I’ve had at least one Baptist on these forums accuse our Church of “feeding the word to us”. Having listened to the Petecostal, and the SB Minister yesterday, I’d say we Catholics are getting a lot less feeding of the Word than they are.

 

[RedBert]

I

God clearly states that Abraham is justified, because he has done this thing. James, as I think the OP already quoted says the very same when he says “see how Abraham was justified by works”. James wasn’t stupid, he knows the difference between what actually justifies you, and what is merely a sign that someone might be justified.
.

Romans 4 CLEARLY disagrees with you.
please review

James and Paul both echo Jesus’ preaching. Paul’s emphasis is an echo of Matthew 5:3: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” James’s teaching has the ring of Matthew 7:21: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.” Paul represents the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount; James the end of it. Paul declares that we are saved by faith without the deeds of the law. James declares that we are saved by faith, which shows itself in works. Both James and Paul view good works as the proof of faith–not the path to salvation.

James could not be more explicit. He is confronting the concept of a passive, false “faith,” which is devoid of the fruits of salvation. He is not arguing for works in addition to or apart from faith. He is showing why and how, true, living faith always works. He is fighting against dead orthodoxy and its tendency to abuse grace.

The error James assails is faith without works; justification without sanctification; salvation without new life.

 

[RedBert]

Question: “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

**"Pope quotes Luther: Sola Fide. Luther, the pope had told his audience, had been right to insist in sola fide, that a believer was justified by faith alone!

"Disagreement over this doctrine had been at the heart of the Reformation in the 16th century, splitting Christianity in western Europe. Yet, said the pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works, that saved him. "

"Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words as ‘justified by faith alone’, the well-known sola fide, Benedict affirmed, " **

au.christiantoday.com/article…bible/5255.htm

 

[MarcoPolo]

Catholics do not distinguish justification and sanctification. Justified is on faith alone; sanctification is the process which gives the outside world evidence of our justification through the works which God preordained that the man/woman of God would walk in them as a testimony to the glory of God.

Looking at it from any other angle will cause a contradiction to Pauls letters to the Ephesians 2 and Romans 4; AKA a contradiction from God. Once you reject the separation, then you can question anything God has said and done; then you can believe whatever you want concerning Scripture; like lose and regain and lose and regain your salvation by your good deeds or works or lack of such.

Catholics DO distinguish justification and sanctification. Justification is essentially being made in a state of reconcilement to God. Sanctifiation is being conformed to perfection. We do not teach justification by faith alone, and agree with James 2:24, 26. Neither faith or works can properly be done without grace.

Without grace we are not justified. CCC#1996
After that we need faith (CCC#161) which is only possible with grace CCC#154. This faith must be lived out in the form of action/works…whatever you want to call it (CCC#1815) Pay special attention that we can’t do these without grace either: CCC#1821.

Faith and works are a singular concept. It’s not faith instead of works. It’s not works instead of faith. James unites the two into one, comparing faith and works as how a person is body and soul, forming a singular body. They are inseparable.

In Romans 2-4, the “works” Paul is specifically referencing are the prescriptions of the Old Testament. Over and over, he repeats “circumcision” as an example of the works he’s talking about. Paul is writing to the Romans who were gentiles. He was assuring them that the route to union with God did not come in the form of the Old Covenant prescriptions. *Romans 2:5-10 By your stubbornness and and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgement of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.*It is the works of charity that are one with faith. Not the prescriptions of the Old Covenant, which is what Paul is talking about in the later part of Romans 2 through Romans 4.

 

[Cathhsmom]

Question: “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

Just for clarification. What churches do you consider “Christian” cults? What churches are biblical Christianity?

 

[crazzeto]

Romans 4 CLEARLY disagrees with you.
please review

James and Paul both echo Jesus’ preaching. Paul’s emphasis is an echo of Matthew 5:3: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” James’s teaching has the ring of Matthew 7:21: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.” Paul represents the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount; James the end of it. Paul declares that we are saved by faith without the deeds of the law. James declares that we are saved by faith, which shows itself in works. Both James and Paul view good works as the proof of faith–not the path to salvation.

James could not be more explicit. He is confronting the concept of a passive, false “faith,” which is devoid of the fruits of salvation. He is not arguing for works in addition to or apart from faith. He is showing why and how, true, living faith always works. He is fighting against dead orthodoxy and its tendency to abuse grace.

The error James assails is faith without works; justification without sanctification; salvation without new life.

You can’t try to use one part of the bible to refute another, your theology must jive with the whole book. Including 1 Corinthians 13 - Written by the very same author as Romans

2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

So did Paul change his mind about faith with the Corthintians? Or does Romans not say what you think it does? In fact, is it possible you’re missing one very important peice of information regarding Romans, the whole letter is written about the Judaisers who were claiming that Gentiles who converted to Christianity must first convert to Judaism, get circomsised and then follow all 613 jewish laws (the very law Paul speaks of in this letter). For some reference, let’s look at the book of Acts

drbo.org/chapter/51015.htm

1 And some coming down from Judea, taught the brethren: That except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved. 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small contest with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of the other side, should go up to the apostles and priests to Jerusalem about this question. 3 They therefore being brought on their way by the church, passed through Phenice, and Samaria, relating the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church, and by the apostles and ancients, declaring how great things God had done with them. 5 But there arose some of the sect of the Pharisees that believed, saying: They must be circumcised, and be commanded to observe the law of Moses.

…(continues)

Romans is about a knife, it’s not a letter written to make you think all you need is faith, then go ahead and sin as much as you want.

In fact in the very same book of Romans Paul write:

drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=2&q=if+I+commit+adultery&b=drb

4 For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.
…
9 For Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not kill: Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness: Thou shalt not covet: and if there be any other commandment, it is comprised in this word, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.10 The love of our neighbour worketh no evil. Love therefore is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[RedBert]

Just for clarification. What churches do you consider “Christian” cults? What churches are biblical Christianity?

JW, Mormons , Church of Christ,…

i agree with the Pope on this

"Yet, said the pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works, that saved him. "

don’t you?

 

[crazzeto]

Not your out of context quotation, but if one considers that faith opens the door to salivation, that with out it all your good works are meaningless then yes it’s appropriate to say that faith saves you. Just like it’s appropriate to save Baptism saves you, as with out it you are not a member of the body of Christ, and are tainted by original sin. Just like it’s approprate to say works save you, because with out Charity one can not be saved [just like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13]. Notice how I said it’s appropriate to say all these things save you

Edit
Anyway, do you have a response for my biblical case?

 

[Cathhsmom]

JW, Mormons , Church of Christ,…

i agree with the Pope on this

"Yet, said the pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works, that saved him. "

don’t you?

Thanks for your clarification. As it was originally written, I was afraid that you were lumping the Catholic church as a “cult”. This has happened before even with someone in a parkday group that I went to with my kids.

As for those that you have listed as cults, I will leave it up to the members of those churches to agree with you or correct you. I did go to a Church of Christ as a child, and can’t think of why they would be in the grouping. But, I don’t remember much about them.

 

[catholic1seeks]

As for the person who keeps on saying that the Pope agrees with Luther, please cite his words and the article.

The pope does not believe in faith alone, that is a person’s intellectual belief and assent alone saves. Rather, it IS a faith working through love.

Besides, any opinion of a pope is not binding.

 

[Irish_Becca]

because works don’t initially save us, nor can they.

i would answer that we are saved by faith and grace, and works are to be the fruits of our salvation. we as Christians do not do works to get to heaven or in hopes of earning our way into God’s good graces, rather we do them out of gratitude, and because the same Spirit of Christ now lives in us.

we do them because of what Jesus has already done for us, not to get closer to heaven. we are assured of heaven and eternal life because of our faith, not our works (John 11:25-26), and if our faith is real and is the fruit of God’s grace and power at work in our lives, and if we are then truly alive in and to and because of Christ, we will as Christians bear the fruits of good works and rightousness.

remember that not all of the seeds the farmer sowed grew the same way, landed in the same soil, or yielded a harvest.

However - works are necessary to get into Heaven, are they not?

BTW, I do lots of things to get closer to Heaven! I love Jesus and want to be with Him in the afterlife.

 

[RedBert]

However - works are necessary to get into Heaven, are they not?

.

nope

Biblical examples are the Thief on the Cross and the chest pounding tax collector

 

[RedBert]

As for the person who keeps on saying that the Pope agrees with Luther, please cite his words and the article.

.

from here, and availalible elsewhere:
au.christiantoday.com/article/luther-rome-and-the-bible/5255.htm

"Pope quotes Luther: Sola Fide. Luther, the pope had told his audience, had been right to insist in sola fide, that a believer was justified by faith alone!

"Disagreement over this doctrine had been at the heart of the Reformation in the 16th century, splitting Christianity in western Europe. Yet, said the pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works, that saved him. "

"Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words as ‘justified by faith alone’, the well-known sola fide, Benedict affirmed, "

 

[Des]

James is discussing hypocrisy:

God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who “say” that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works.

Faith is give given by God’s Graces. So are the works. We have to use our free will to accept both. Accepting a Grace is a work therefore accepting faith is a work. It’s actually us doing our part. I believe you’re a once saved always saved believer correct? However all protestants do not believe this and according to them, say someone can lose their salvation as a Christian by not doing works of the faith later on in life. They can turn away from God when they were once relishing in this gift. If this can happen and you still consider them never saved to begin with, then this should likewise apply to you, no matter how much you truly feel you have faith.

Do you spend as much energy in your life doing works of the faith? Do ever have selfish needs that come first over others? If so, wouldn’t this mean at that particular time in your life, your faith is not rooted in ‘true faith’?

 

[grace_singh]

i am not talking about getting into Heaven, Becca. i am refering to salvation, wherein the person is reconciled to God, made alive in Him, and changed forever through faith in Christ, by God’s grace.

no work can earn that, or reconcile us to God. the only work involved was the work our Lord did on the cross to save us, and reconcile us to Himself, 2000 years ago, and which still saves and holds today.

the salvation is by faith and grace. had God expected us to bridge the gap between Himself and ourselves by works, He would not have sent Christ, or needed to.

in Christ, we are asked to not only believe, but to follow Him, live for Him, and to be His ambassadors. God will give us the chances to do these things, and to bear fruit. to love, serve, pray, study His Word, and work for Him.

“faith” which speaks only but does not bear fruit, a life which says it is for Jesus yet has not been changed by Him or made like Him, is not really rooted in Him. we can believe things intellectually and say things with our mouths, and yet not really live for Him or in Him, or because of Him. those will be the ones who protest in shock one day “but did we not do so many works in Your Name?” and Christ will say to them “get away from Me, I never knew you”.

that is how i understand what the scriptures say about salvation.

However - works are necessary to get into Heaven, are they not?

BTW, I do lots of things to get closer to Heaven! I love Jesus and want to be with Him in the afterlife.

 

[crazzeto]

nope

Biblical examples are the Thief on the Cross and the chest pounding tax collector

Do you have a response for my scriptual arguments? Thanks

 

[RedBert]

. Accepting a Grace is a work therefore accepting faith is a work.

nope:

Grace is God’s giving us something we cannot earn or deserve. According to Romans 11:6, “works” of any kind destroys grace—the idea is that a worker earns payment, while the recipient of grace simply receives it, unearned. Since salvation is all of grace, it cannot be earned. Faith, therefore, is a non-work. Faith cannot truly be considered a “work,” or else it would destroy grace. (See also Romans 4—Abraham’s salvation was dependent on faith in God, as opposed to any work he performed.)

 

[RedBert]

Do you have a response for my scriptual arguments? Thanks

I think i have been: