Protestants and John chapter 6

[CenturionSlave]

Hi Sorrows,
Raised Baptist, converted at age 33; but frankly I can’t recall much on this topic other than symbolic perspective. Oddly, the “Protestant” insistent and persistent focus on scripture had much to do with my conversion. But unlike many in my family (Protestant) who can readily state a singular verse, I have come to recognize the value of scriptural context. So, when considering John 6, I’m reading all of it. Additionally, I think most scholars would agree that 1st century Jewish tradition and understanding would play an important part in what Jesus was trying to communicate (to them and to us). Like: Those Israelites who recognized the 12 baskets of fragments as the prophecy they anticipated before the Messiah; Like: Their testing of Him to show the sign of the manna and quail (flesh) again (Exodus 16:12)(John 6:58); and Jesus’ response to that request (John 6: 32, 33, 35, 38, 48, 49, 51). At this point one must consider the ‘supernatural’ understanding (and for me, to accept it) (John 54, 55, 56). To misunderstand as even some of the Israelites did, is to assume ‘cannibalism’. That is, “This saying is hard. Who can accept it?” (John 6:60).
So the question (for me) then becomes: Is acceptance of Jesus’ directive as merely symbolic, a position/ perspective of compromise for those who can neither accept the supernatural or the misunderstood cannibalism? A safe place of sorts? Like others have pointed out, such a position is inconsistent with the Virgin birth of Jesus, and makes for some tough questions about what really constitutes ‘belief’. So when we say “I believe”, just what do we mean?
Sorry for the long thread.
Blessings, CS

 

[Telstar]

John 6 is crystal clear, especially when you also read the accounts of the Last Supper. I can’t understand for the life of me how anyone could fail to see the simple meaning of it unless they really wanted to. You really have to work hard to twist its meaning into anything different. That’s why Jesus kept ramping up His explanation and teaching, so there could be absolutely no doubt about His meaning. The Jews certainly understood what He was saying, even though they thought He was talking about eating His human body. The Apostles didn’t realize the full meaning of it until it was revealed to them at the Last Supper, but they still believed what He said, because they knew Who He was. This was the final test of faith that He used to separate the stragglers, who just wanted the free food, or to watch and see what kind of miracle He would perform next, from His true followers. There were very few that remained faithful to Him, perhaps only the eleven, discounting Judas who at that time had already made up his mind to betray Jesus.

“Malachi 1: [11] For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.”

The above part of Malachi is a prophecy in reference to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Eucharist, which is offered every day in every part of the world, in the Catholic Church. But, I have to wonder what the remainder of that chapter could mean.

“[12] And you have profaned it in that you say: The table of the Lord is defiled: and that which is laid thereupon is contemptible with the fire that devoureth it. [13] And you have said: Behold of our labour, and you puffed it away, saith the Lord of hosts, and you brought in of rapine the lame, and the sick, and brought in an offering: shall I accept it at your hands, saith the Lord? [14] Cursed is the deceitful man that hath in his flock a male, and making a vow offereth in sacrifice that which is feeble to the Lord: for I am a great King, saith the Lord of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the Gentiles.”

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

I don’t think I can ever wrap my head around the Eucharist being the Body, Blood, Soul, and DIVINITY of Christ. I believe. Yet cannot understand.

That is a profound statement. In the Eucharist God is calling us to faith, and you NuclearReceptor publicly proclaimed it, “I believe”.

Or as when we receive the Eucharist “Amen”.
It is not only in the giving and receiving of the Eucharist, but believing God is present within our midst.

I find it very ironic, that Protestants are huge on God’s written Word. Yet, When Jesus divinely reveals “This is my body…This is my blood”. from the recorded Last Supper. Protestants remove themselves from faith in God and begin to trust their own logical conclusions of a symbolic Jesus, because Protestants cannot phantom the real and substantial presence of eating the flesh and blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Simply put; One does not have or can enter into the new and everlasting covenant of God, without eating the Sacrificial Lamb provided by God alone.
Secondly; never does there exist a symbolic covenant with and in God. Hence, for a Protestant to ascertain to a spiritual presence from a piece of bread and grape juice that was never used as God’s sacrificial offering for our sins, when no such symbolic spirit even exist.
Peace be with you

 

[NuclearReceptor]

It’s easy to believe that God can do the impossible.

It’s not so easy to believe God does something that flies in the face of what humans perceive to be God-like.

God being omnipotent is obvious. Well, of course He can do such and such.

But to condescend to be literal food? No way God would ever do that! He must have meant Eucharist is a symbol.

Somehow Protestants can believe infinite God (greatness we cannot imagine) became fully, truly human…He was an infant at one point. But Real Presence is where the line is drawn…somehow.

I used to be Protestant and believed it was a symbol because, well, that’s what I was taught.

Faith is beyond our ability. Let’s pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

So when we say “I believe”, just what do we mean?

Amen, means “so be it”. Me personally, here I put ALL my trust in God’s Word. God said it is, “so be it”, although my mind cannot reach into the mysteries of God’s real and substantial Presence. By my profession of faith before God’s Presence (Holy Eucharist), God meets me at my heart and soul and gifts me with faith, so that I can say with confidence, “Amen”.

Example; When Jesus healed the woman with a blood issue, what was it that drew Jesus attention, while being admired and touched by onlookers, when Jesus felt His healing powers act? The Woman’s faith. Time after time, miracles and signs followed Jesus, when Jesus say’s, “your faith has healed you”.

God loves faith, most of all “ye of little faith” God comes to us and reveals His Love to us in mysterious ways. Yet, God reveals His Love to us Always in His precious body, blood, soul and divinity, only to be One with Him.
Peace be with you

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

No way God would ever do that! He must have meant Eucharist is a symbol.

There is much to state here, so I will limit to my personal faith in God.
Human beings can only be present in time and space at one time.
Angels can be present any where without space or time, yet an angel can only be present Once.
God’s presence is eternal, God’s presence is never limited to space and time.God’s presence can be present in multiple places at one time or multiple times in multiple places.
God said; “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood” you will not have eternal life, because God is eternal life.
The Eucharist is the New and everlasting covenant.
The Eucharist is the Blessed Sacrament above all sacraments.
A sacrament is God’s visible sign, instituted by God’s Incarnate Word that parts Grace to the believer.
Jesus is the door, and no one goes to the Father except through the Son. That Son who is Jesus, makes for our humanity to enter God’s Presence, via His Eucharist.
There never exist a symbolic Jesus.
We must not allow our carnal understanding of things to impede into our Spiritual understanding, divinely revealed by God, that describes spiritual things in spiritual terms.
Faith is a gift from God. We ask God here, to help us in our unbelief, I will believe.
In God’s Sacramental mystery of Eucharist, makes it hard for protestants to kick against the goads, as Jesus revealed to Saul.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Many very good replies here.

Good points to think about.

 

[MT1926]

I don’t think I can ever wrap my head around the Eucharist being the Body, Blood, Soul, and DIVINITY of Christ. I believe. Yet cannot understand.

That might be the issue.

Know exactly what you mean, I often feel the same way. I think St. Peter did also and said similar words in…

67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Will you also go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

To me St. Peter is saying here, you know Jesus I don’t have a clue what you are talking about here but we Know you are the Holy One of God, so we just need to stay the course and believe. We know that when the time is right you will explain what you mean here. Which He did at the last supper.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

There are seven “I am” statements of Christ in the book of John

I am the bread of life
I am the light of the world
I am the door of the sheep
I am the good Shepard
I am the resurrection and the life
I am the way, the truth and the life
I am the true vine

For curiosities sake how do you deal with the fact that Jesus lost the majority of His followers by saying “I AM the Bread of Life” but gained followers with the other 6 I AM statements?

Thanks,

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

I’ll try and answer late tonight or tomorrow. I’m moving my youngest son to college today. He has to go early because he is in snare drummer in the band.

 

[MT1926]

I’ll try and answer late tonight or tomorrow. I’m moving my youngest son to college today. He has to go early because he is in snare drummer in the band.

Nice I use to play drums, the good ole days.

Also, have 3 in college right now , not sure if I’ll ever think of three in college as the good ole days.

 

[lanman87]

For curiosities sake how do you deal with the fact that Jesus lost the majority of His followers by saying “I AM the Bread of Life” but gained followers with the other 6 I AM statements?

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

From the reading it is clear that many of His Disciples didn’t actually believe in Christ. 64 says there are some of you who do not believe This is plural many he was talking about more than just Judas.

My oldest son is a Chemical engineering major. They have what the call weed out classes. These classes are used to find out who actually has what it takes to be a Chem Engineer from those who doesn’t. They use “hard teaching” to determine who is “all in” and who isn’t. In a sense (using this bad analogy) This is what Christ was doing with His disciples.

Jesus used this “hard teaching” to separate the sheep and the goats. He separated ones the Father enabled(those who truly believed) to come to Him from those that came out of curiosity, to see miracles, or just didn’t have anything better to do (those disciples who did not believe).

 

[HolyWarrior]

 

[MT1926]

From the reading it is clear that many of His Disciples didn’t actually believe in Christ. 64 says there are some of you who do not believe This is plural many he was talking about more than just Judas.

Thanks for the response.

I totally agree with what you say here. I do want to point out that is says “do not believe”. This is present tense, it is not future tense, so trying to make the claim that Jesus is separating the sheep and the goats here seems like a leap. There is no way of knowing that none of these followers came back after hearing about the eyewitnesses to the resurrection.

They have what the call weed out classes.
They use “hard teaching” to determine who is “all in” and who isn’t.

Sorry not following the analogy. If anything your analogy actually proves the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Yes it’s been 30 years but I remember all to well what weed out classes are. The thing is yes they use “hard teachings”, but these hard teachings aren’t just something twisted to make it hard to understand and only those who can figure out what the professor is trying to teach get to continue in the major. No these teachings are something TRUE and NECESSARY that you should be learning 2 years from now but can only be understood by the students with the determination to dig deeper and find the answers.

I actually agree with you here Jesus used a hard, but true, teaching to determine who is “ALL IN”. Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said when He said…

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

If all Jesus meant by His I am the Bread statement was a simple not hard to believe statement meaning …

For those of us who come to Christ seeking forgiveness of our sins and rest in His love and Grace our spiritual hunger and thirst (needs) are satisfied by Christ. We eat the bread of life and drink the spring of water welling up in Eternal life by surrendering our heart (our inmost self) to Christ which is made evident by our living faith in Christ.

I think if all Jesus meant was to believe in Him would have been deceptive and dishonest.

Ask your son if He could know ahead of time that a certain professor at his school used trick questions on his exams to weed out students, would still sign up for that professors class?

Sorry I don’t mean to be unkind with this analogy but in my mind I couldn’t even imagine the uproar here. Jesus basically just let over 5000 people be deceived into believe something that He wasn’t really teaching to get them to walk away. I find it hard to believe anyone would be willing to follow the Apostles after that kind of deception. Just like your son would most likely avoid that professor like the plague.

Just my thoughts,

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

This is present tense, it is not future tense, so trying to make the claim that Jesus is separating the sheep and the goats here seems like a leap.

I didn’t mean to imply that it was a done deal. Christ was separating those the truly believed in Him at that moment from those that did not. Who knows, maybe later on the Lord enabled some of those who left to come back???

I actually agree with you here Jesus used a hard, but true, teaching to determine who is “ALL IN”. Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said when He said…

I agree that Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. What we disagree on is how we eat of the “Living Bread”.

I don’t believe we have to wait on a priest to consecrate the bread and cup in order to eat and drink the body of Christ. I believe that every time I read and study the Bible, Pray, Sing songs in Worship, volunteer to serve in my church and community, proclaim the Good News of Christ and so forth, that I am eating the bread of life. I eat the bread of life by hungering and thirsting after righteousness and Christ is the one that fills that hunger and thirst.

The Lord’s supper is when I physically participate in, by outward Thanksgiving and Remembrance and Celebration; the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. It is the outward representation of what Christ has done and is doing for me spiritually and my faith/trust in Him.

 

[MonteRCMS]

You aren’t Catholic, are you.

If you are interested in the Catholic perspective, check out Father Mike’s Youtubes and also read the tracts in the Catholic Answers bookstore, which you can download for free.

Here is one but there are more than 100 of them.

 

[MT1926]

I didn’t mean to imply that it was a done deal. Christ was separating those the truly believed in Him at that moment from those that did not. Who knows, maybe later on the Lord enabled some of those who left to come back??

:+1:t2:

What we disagree on is how we eat of the “Living Bread”.

I don’t believe we have to wait on a priest to consecrate the bread and cup in order to eat and drink the body of Christ. I believe that every time I read and study the Bible, Pray, Sing songs in Worship, volunteer to serve in my church and community, proclaim the Good News of Christ and so forth, that I am eating the bread of life. I eat the bread of life by hungering and thirsting after righteousness and Christ is the one that fills that hunger and thirst.

Actually I think we also disagree on what Jesus meant about what he said?

I’ve heard your explaination of how we eat the “Living Bread”. I’v just never had anyone give me an explaination of how you get to the conclusion that Jesus is speaking about reading the Bible, singing songs and volunteering to serve in John 6?

From what I read here, I don’t believe that is what he meant or said here.

Thanks,

God Bless

 

[JonNC]

I think it’s just how the Protestant’s see it and have been taught to see it. The John 6 verse seems more like a symbol to them but to us it isn’t because we have the Eucharist. I was a Protestant my whole life until this Easter and when I would read John 6 I read it like he was using a metaphor. It’s very hard to explain this to Protestants, especially those who think they are right, because they won’t hear you out. Just my thoughts!

In and of itself, John 6 is metaphorical. We see the reality of the Eucharist, The real presence in the accounts of the Last Supper.
No longer “I am “ statements, He states clearly “this is my body”, and “this is my blood”. The metaphors of ”I am” are joined by the literal “this is”.

 

[TOmNossor]

The next several weeks our homilies will focus on John chapter 6 and the Eucharist and Jesus being the Bread of Life.

I understand Protestants are Sola Scriptura, but what do they believe John chapter 6 is teaching?

I think the real presence is the clearest read of John 6.
I think the real presence is a beautiful doctrine. Every week around the world Catholics commune with God by actually bringing His body, blood, soul, and divinity into their body; making it part of themselves. For the Catholic it is “spiritual food and spiritual medicine,” “life-giving fruit,” “the source and summit of Christian life.” This communion not only nits all Catholic lives to Christ their savior, but nits all Catholic lives together to one another.
I have holy envy for the real presence in the Eucharist.
Charity, TOm

 

[JonNC]

I think the real presence is the clearest read of John 6.

With all due respect, I believe this is the biggest flaw of Catholic apologia with Christians who confess only a symbolic presence on the topic of the Eucharist.
It is only the clearest read of John 6 when read in the light of Christ’s words of institution in the Last Supper accounts. Without His words, “this is…”, one can reasonably argue the symbolic view.

I think the real presence is a beautiful doctrine. Every week around the world Catholics commune with God by actually bringing His body, blood, soul, and divinity into their body; making it part of themselves. For the Catholic it is “spiritual food and spiritual medicine,” “life-giving fruit,” “the source and summit of Christian life.” This communion not only nits all Catholic lives to Christ their savior, but nits all Catholic lives together to one another.
I have holy envy for the real presence in the Eucharist.

Beautifully said