Protestants and Mary

[Adonia]

To my fellow Cristians who don’t have the same teahings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother. We all know that Christ is the Savior, The “Lord of Lords” and “King of Kings”, but have you ever thought of Mary in the context that Her body is part of Christ’s physical body? And that is one of the reasons why she holds such a high status in the Church? Evan Islam pays her due homage!

 

[JonNC]

To my fellow Cristians who don’t have the same teahings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother. We all know that Christ is the Savior, The “Lord of Lords” and “King of Kings”, but have you ever thought of Mary in the context that Her body is part of Christ’s physical body? And that is one of the reasons why she holds such a high status in the Church? Evan Islam pays her due homage!

First, what Islam thinks of the Blessed Virgin Mary (or anything else, for that matter) is completely irrelevent to my faith.

Next, please explain what you mean by “don’t have the same teachings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother”? Is it possible for a Christian to hold different Marian doctrines than the CC, and still be considered as holding the Blessed Virgin in high regard?

Jon

 

[Dokimas]

To my fellow Cristians who don’t have the same teahings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother. We all know that Christ is the Savior, The “Lord of Lords” and “King of Kings”, but have you ever thought of Mary in the context that Her body is part of Christ’s physical body? And that is one of the reasons why she holds such a high status in the Church? Evan Islam pays her due homage!

Mary was a special woman. We can learn a lot from her if we pay attention to what she said and how she responded to the situations in her life. Outside Jesus, I think she is one of those we should look to as an example of how to respond when life throws us ‘curves’.​

However, she was chosen out from among all of us. She was not better than we are. She was a sinner.​

Have you ever looked at the Scriptures telling us how Jesus interacted with Mary? At least twice her, speaking to her, called her woman not mother (or mom). Once when He was brought news that His mothers and brothers had come to see Him, He responded saying, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”​

Maybe Jesus knew that people would one day misunderstand Mary’s role and make her out to be a person not intended by God. My guess is that Mary, if she’s paying attention to us from Heaven, cringes when she is exalted by us. I’ll bet she says, “NO, DON"T look to me, look to my Son. I’m just like you; I’ve needed saving and my Son saved me for all that calls upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. I called upon Him. Will you?”

 

[LondonIrish]

Is it possible for a Christian to hold different Marian doctrines than the CC, and still be considered as holding the Blessed Virgin in high regard?

Jon

Hello Jon

Yes it is. It is wonderful to me to hear the reverential way Our Lady is addressed by many of my friends in other denominations, and to witness the special place The Blessed Virgin holds in their hearts. I believe Jesus is most pleased with all those who show respect for His Mother, in whatever form that respect is given. Catholic theology may be further along than some, but I believe we are all on the same road, going in the same direction, and that’s worth giving thanks for.

 

[Adonia]

First, what Islam thinks of the Blessed Virgin Mary (or anything else, for that matter) is completely irrelevent to my faith.

Next, please explain what you mean by “don’t have the same teachings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother”? Is it possible for a Christian to hold different Marian doctrines than the CC, and still be considered as holding the Blessed Virgin in high regard?

Jon

First point well taken, poor statement on my part. As for the second, I have talked to many Christians - among them Fundamentalists, Baptists, and Pentecostals, who view the Blessed Mother in the context of her being only a “vessel” that would allow the Savior to be born. She is held in no higher esteem than that!

Thirdly, I did not mean to suggest that no other Marian doctrines than the CC would not be considered as holding the Blessed Mother in high regard, I just meant the thread for those that have little regard for her as no more than the “vessel”, to think about the subject a little more deeply. I believe your church teachings do not fall into the aformentioned catagory, right?

 

[Dokimas]

I forgot to mention that as a male, I hold her as an important role model.​

The Bible says she, “pondered things in her heart.” We need to be more meditative of the things of God as she was.​

When Mary was told an amazing miracle would happen, even though she did not understand it, knowing it was from God she said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” Too bad we don’t be servants of the Most High instead of talking about it. I’m as guilty as anyone. God deliver me from myself.

 

[Dokimas]

First point well taken, poor statement on my part. As for the second, I have talked to many Christians - among them Fundamentalists, Baptists, and Pentecostals, who view the Blessed Mother in the context of her being only the “vessal” that would allow the Savior to be born. She is held in no higher esteem than that!

Thirdly, I did not mean to suggest that no other Marian doctrines than the CC would not be considered as holding the BVM in high regard, I just meant the thread for those that have little regard for the BVM, as no more than the “vessal”, to think about the subject a little more deeply. I believe your church teachings do not fall into the aformentioned catagory, right?

Is there any higher calling than to be a vessel of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not!!!​

Ac 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.​

Ro 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​

2Ti 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.​

I feel like a dishonorable vessel too often, yet blessed to at least be a vessel for the Lord.

 

[Dokimas]

Have you looked into the teaching of the Tabernacle? It’s a wonderful teaching and it give a glimpse of the Lord Jesus Christ.​

On part of the Tabernacle is the Laver. It’s a vessel that holds water. Water in the Bible sometimes speaks forgiveness by the washing of the Blood of Jesus and the Word of God. The Laver was the only part of the Tabernacle that didn’t have a demention. I wonder if God was telling us that the forgiveness of God was limitless.​

Hebrews 8-10 seems to tell us that the Tabernacle was a picture of Jesus. That means the Laver reveals that Jesus is the Vessel of Forgiveness.​

Being a vessel is following first the lead of Jesus, then His disciples which includes Mary.

 

[Adonia]

Is there any higher calling than to be a vessel of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not!!!​

Ac 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.​

Ro 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​

2Ti 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.​

I feel like a dishonorable vessel too often, yet blessed to at least be a vessel for the Lord.

Yep, no problem in what you say there. But my experience and the attitude I have gotten from talking to those that I mentioned before, is the BVM was no big deal. I have been taken to task by those same folks concerning what my particular church teaches on the issue. I am gratified to see that you have a positive viewpoint concerning the Mother of Christ.

 

[teachccd]

Mary was a special woman. We can learn a lot from her if we pay attention to what she said and how she responded to the situations in her life. Outside Jesus, I think she is one of those we should look to as an example of how to respond when life throws us ‘curves’.

I would agree that Mary was a very special woman. She responded to God immediately disregarding all of the possible consequensces for being pregnant outside of marriage. Her entire will was aligned with God’s will and she put her entire trust in Him.

However, she was chosen out from among all of us. She was not better than we are. She was a sinner.

The ark of the covenant in the Old Testament held the written word of God and it was lined with pure gold inside and out and God gave detailed instructions on how it was to be handled. No one could touch it for it had to remain unstained. Mary held the living Word of God yet you admit that she could be stained with sin. I hold Jesus much higher than that. I would hold that if stone tablets deserve an unstained vessel then the living Word of God should even more so. Also, if Mary sinned then she pierced her own heart as her sin nailed her own Son to the cross.

Yes she was definitely chosen from all eternity to be the unstained vessel of the living Word of God. This was her gift for her eternal “yes”. Everything that Mary is comes from Christ. God honors her and so do we. What higher honor is there than the one who is chosen to give birth to the Person of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man?

Have you ever looked at the Scriptures telling us how Jesus interacted with Mary? At least twice her, speaking to her, called her woman not mother (or mom). Once when He was brought news that His mothers and brothers had come to see Him, He responded saying, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

If you realize that Mary is the second Eve then you would realize that her yes to God would undo Eve’s no. The reference to Mary as woman was not only utilized in those days with no disrespect but also typologically ties her in to the events that took place for Jesus’ mission. How could Jesus break the commandment to honor His mother? This is the most ridiculous of all.

Jesus says that whoever does the will of my Father is my mother…WHO followed God’s will more than Mary???​

Maybe Jesus knew that people would one day misunderstand Mary’s role and make her out to be a person not intended by God. My guess is that Mary, if she’s paying attention to us from Heaven, cringes when she is exalted by us. I’ll bet she says, “NO, DON"T look to me, look to my Son. I’m just like you; I’ve needed saving and my Son saved me for all that calls upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. I called upon Him. Will you?”

She says that all generations shall call her blessed. Yes, of course I call on the name of Jesus as did Mary. It is unfortunate how you can go to great lengths to not show Mary the honer that God does. I have way more repsect for Jesus than that. Yes, Mary says look to my Son and through her we do. Remember that God had Him come to us through her. It was His idea, not ours…teachccd

 

[JonNC]

First point well taken, poor statement on my part. As for the second, I have talked to many Christians - among them Fundamentalists, Baptists, and Pentecostals, who view the Blessed Mother in the context of her being only a “vessel” that would allow the Savior to be born. She is held in no higher esteem than that!

Thirdly, I did not mean to suggest that no other Marian doctrines than the CC would not be considered as holding the Blessed Mother in high regard, I just meant the thread for those that have little regard for her as no more than the “vessel”, to think about the subject a little more deeply. I believe your church teachings do not fall into the aformentioned catagory, right?

Adonia,
I didn’t think you meant to suggest that, but I had to ask.
I think you ask a very important question, though maybe not directly. It is this: is it possible for Christians of various communions to recognize that our respect and admiration for Mary, though expressed in different ways, is pleasing to her son?
In all honesty, I am reluctant to criticize anyone else’s Marian beliefs, so long as they are respectful to her, and the role she willingly played in God’s plan for our salvation.
“Hail, Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women,
and the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Amen”

 

[4everjustjesus]

First, what Islam thinks of the Blessed Virgin Mary (or anything else, for that matter) is completely irrelevent to my faith.

Next, please explain what you mean by “don’t have the same teachings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother”? Is it possible for a Christian to hold different Marian doctrines than the CC, and still be considered as holding the Blessed Virgin in high regard?

Jon

the answer to your second paragraph is yes (if I understand what your trying to say).

 

[geekborj]

Mary was a special woman. We can learn a lot from her if we pay attention to what she said and how she responded to the situations in her life. Outside Jesus, I think she is one of those we should look to as an example of how to respond when life throws us ‘curves’.​

However, she was chosen out from among all of us. She was not better than we are. She was a sinner.​

Have you ever looked at the Scriptures telling us how Jesus interacted with Mary? At least twice her, speaking to her, called her woman not mother (or mom). Once when He was brought news that His mothers and brothers had come to see Him, He responded saying, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”​

Maybe Jesus knew that people would one day misunderstand Mary’s role and make her out to be a person not intended by God. My guess is that Mary, if she’s paying attention to us from Heaven, cringes when she is exalted by us. I’ll bet she says, “NO, DON"T look to me, look to my Son. I’m just like you; I’ve needed saving and my Son saved me for all that calls upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. I called upon Him. Will you?”

What is your (biblical or rational) evidence of Mary being a sinner?

Do you believe that in the “new creation,” Jesus is the second Adam? Then who is the second Eve? Catholics believe that BVM is the “second Eve” of the new creation. This is the significance of her being called “woman” right before Jesus went to “sleep” and the blood and water went out of his “side.” There are a lot of counter- and direct-parallelism with Adam-Eve and Jesus-Mary history. One striking anti-parallelism is that Eve is physically “out of” Adam while Jesus is physically “born of” Mary (Gal 4:4). Mary’s action towards Jesus’ authority (Jn 2:4-5): “Do whatever he tells you.” This is the complete opposite of how Eve gave the “forbidden fruit” to Adam and Adam ate it without any questions. Finally, Eve decided a “No” to God when she was “tricked” by the Serpent, while Mary said “Yes” even with fear but with full trust in God.

Mary is way much better than us: she is most blessed among women and has found great favor in God (cf Lk 1).

The rendition of “brothers and sisters” of Jesus as in Mk 3:31-35 as in other passages mean kin folks which includes all family members in the same “house” (e.g. house of Judah). In fact, this is understandable from the Jewish background and under the Law (Gal 4:4). How many brothers and sisters does Jesus have? James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas are recorded as being his “brothers” in Mt 12:46-50, Mt 13:55, Mk 6:3, Mt 12 and Lk 8:19-21. Look up “adelphos.”

 

[geekborj]

As an answer to Jon’s question:

Is it possible for a Christian to hold different Marian doctrines than the CC, and still be considered as holding the Blessed Virgin in high regard?

you answered:

the answer to your second paragraph is yes (if I understand what your trying to say).

Well, it really depends on the definition of “high regard.” It seems that the “high regard” of Protestants are like “dulia” of Catholics. Catholics have “hyperdulia” which means a regard worth more than merely a saint and role model. If Moses were highly regarded by Jews, then Christians regard Mary highly as well.

 

[Dokimas]

What is your (biblical or rational) evidence of Mary being a sinner?

Do you believe that in the “new creation,” Jesus is the second Adam? Then who is the second Eve? Catholics believe that BVM is the “second Eve” of the new creation. This is the significance of her being called “woman” right before Jesus went to “sleep” and the blood and water went out of his “side.” There are a lot of counter- and direct-parallelism with Adam-Eve and Jesus-Mary history. One striking anti-parallelism is that Eve is physically “out of” Adam while Jesus is physically “born of” Mary (Gal 4:4). Mary’s action towards Jesus’ authority (Jn 2:4-5): “Do whatever he tells you.” This is the complete opposite of how Eve gave the “forbidden fruit” to Adam and Adam ate it without any questions. Finally, Eve decided a “No” to God when she was “tricked” by the Serpent, while Mary said “Yes” even with fear but with full trust in God.

Mary is way much better than us: she is most blessed among women and has found great favor in God (cf Lk 1).

The rendition of “brothers and sisters” of Jesus as in Mk 3:31-35 as in other passages mean kin folks which includes all family members in the same “house” (e.g. house of Judah). In fact, this is understandable from the Jewish background and under the Law (Gal 4:4). How many brothers and sisters does Jesus have? James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas are recorded as being his “brothers” in Mt 12:46-50, Mt 13:55, Mk 6:3, Mt 12 and Lk 8:19-21. Look up “adelphos.”

Mary called God her Savior. Only sinners need the Savior.​

Paul said, ‘all have sinned.’​

Hebrews tells us that it is Jesus, our High Priest, that is without sin.​

If Jesus is the 2nd Adam and Mary is the 2nd Eve does that mean Jesus has married His mother? Of course not. The NT says that His church (all true believers) is His espoused and will marry Him.​

It is convenient to your doctrine to believe that ‘brothers’ mean kin. The same Greek word is used for the relationship between Andrew and Peter and between James and John; James and John had the same mother.​

You must answer the question, ‘why would the Gospel writers use the same word in their writings and have them mean different things,’ if you can logically continue your belief that Jesus didn’t have brothers.

 

[Dokimas]

The ark of the covenant in the Old Testament held the written word of God and it was lined with pure gold inside and out and God gave detailed instructions on how it was to be handled. No one could touch it for it had to remain unstained. Mary held the living Word of God yet you admit that she could be stained with sin. I hold Jesus much higher than that. I would hold that if stone tablets deserve an unstained vessel then the living Word of God should even more so. Also, if Mary sinned then she pierced her own heart as her sin nailed her own Son to the cross.

Yes she was definitely chosen from all eternity to be the unstained vessel of the living Word of God. This was her gift for her eternal “yes”. Everything that Mary is comes from Christ. God honors her and so do we. What higher honor is there than the one who is chosen to give birth to the Person of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man?

If you realize that Mary is the second Eve then you would realize that her yes to God would undo Eve’s no. The reference to Mary as woman was not only utilized in those days with no disrespect but also typologically ties her in to the events that took place for Jesus’ mission. How could Jesus break the commandment to honor His mother? This is the most ridiculous of all.

Jesus says that whoever does the will of my Father is my mother…WHO followed God’s will more than Mary???​

You don’t have a high enough opinion of Jesus’ ability to deal with sin, IMO. Jesus touched sinners all the time. The Jewish religious leaders tried to point out Jesus was a sinner because He touched sinners. What a small problem for Jesus to be inside Mary and Mary being a sinner.

I don’t think Mary is the 2nd Eve. There is no Biblical reason to believe so. I answered someone else on this point. Maybe you can refer to this for my reasoning.​

Not only did Jesus call Mary woman, but in John 2 He said, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?” IMO, not exactly what you’d think Jesus would say to Mary if your understanding of Mary is correct.

 

[JonNC]

Well, it really depends on the definition of “high regard.” It seems that the “high regard” of Protestants are like “dulia” of Catholics. Catholics have “hyperdulia” which means a regard worth more than merely a saint and role model. If Moses were highly regarded by Jews, then Christians regard Mary highly as well.

That is an interesting comparison. Question; is “dulia” adequate?
Jon

 

[Radical]

You don’t have a high enough opinion of Jesus’ ability to deal with sin, IMO. Jesus touched sinners all the time. The Jewish religious leaders tried to point out Jesus was a sinner because He touched sinners. What a small problem for Jesus to be inside Mary and Mary being a sinner.

excellent point…it is not about what Christ deserved, after all he did not deserve to be crucified, but he chose to undergo that death for us. During the incarnation he chose to lower himself and take on human flesh. To claim that he could/would not dwell in the womb of a sinner is to diminish the extent by which he lowered himself to save our souls.

 

[Radical]

That is an interesting comparison. Question; is “dulia” adequate?
Jon

…and is hyperdulia excessive?

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by JonNC
Question; is “dulia” adequate?

I think it is.

…and is hyperdulia excessive?

I think it is not.

Jon