Protestants and Mortal Sin.

[spedteacherita]

Some might say yes - but - -
If we do not keep his commandments - then we do not know him…and if we do not know him, is he still our advocate with the Father?

This same verse can also be used to support universal salvation since it says that he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world - not just those who believe in him.

This is the danger of taking things in isolation.

Peace
James

But He did die for all. It’s just that there are people who don’t want to know Him, turn their backs on Him or don’t try to walk a life of righteousness with Him. It’s there for them IF they want it…

 

[spedteacherita]

So you actually never confess your sins?

Catholics acknowledge their sinfulness every Sunday by reciting the Confiteor.

“I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.”

There is a difference between acknowledging that we are sinners and actually confessing our sins. God is faithful to forgive our sins if we “confess” them.

Lutherans have virtually the same confession without asking Mary to intercede. Joshua shared that with you.

We are forgiven of sins when we are truly sorry for them and confess them to God. There is a general Absolution during Service. The penitent says soemthing along the lines of:

“All-Powerful God, merciful Father, I, a poor, pitiful sinner, confess to You all my sins and unrighteousness. By them I have continually offended You and fairly deserved Your punishment, both now and eternally. But from my heart I am sorry for them, and I sincerely repent of them, and I pray You, in Your limitless mercy for the sake of the holy, innocent, bitter sufferings and death of Your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, be gracious and merciful to me, a poor, sinful being.”

The Pastor then says:
“Upon this your confession, I, as a called and
ordained servant of the Word,announce the grace of God to all
of you,and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus
Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and
of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

We confess and we are given absolution. We must do this with all our sins in order to be ready to receive the Body and the Blood through communion.

Blessings!!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Since it is optional…so it is not considered a sacrament by LCMS?

We as Lutherans acknowledge 2 sacraments, baptism and the Lord’s supper (Communion)

 

[SteveVH]

Lutherans have virtually the same confession without asking Mary to intercede.

Hi, Rita.

But this isn’t confession, in the sacramental sense. And why would we ask the angels and saints and our fellow parishioners to pray for us and leave out Mary?

 

[Blessedwithfive]

Hi, Rita.

But this isn’t confession, in the sacramental sense. And why would we ask the angels and saints and our fellow parishioners to pray for us and leave out Mary?

Technically Mary is a Saint. So I would say she is included.

 

[SteveVH]

Technically Mary is a Saint. So I would say she is included.

More than “technically”. There is no greater saint. To invoke everyone in heaven and on earth and exclude Mary seems a little strange. I think the issue is probably that if Mary is mentioned by name then we are giving undue attention to her.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Hi, Rita.

But this isn’t confession, in the sacramental sense. And why would we ask the angels and saints and our fellow parishioners to pray for us and leave out Mary?

Lutherans wouldn’t ask the angels and saints to intercede. The form of confession recited in the congregation, for those Lutherans who consider confession & absolution a sacrament, is a sacrament. However, private confession is also encouraged.

 

[SteveVH]

Lutherans wouldn’t ask the angels and saints to intercede.

Okay, thanks. Since Mary was singled out, rather than the angels and saints in general, I assumed they would be included. Do they ask for the intercession of their “brothers and sisters”?

The form of confession recited in the congregation, for those Lutherans who consider confession & absolution a sacrament, is a sacrament. However, private confession is also encouraged.

Understood.

Thanks for the clarification.

Steve

 

[Per_Crucem]

Okay, thanks. Since Mary was singled out, rather than the angels and saints in general, I assumed they would be included. Do they ask for the intercession of their “brothers and sisters”?

Not as part of the recited confession, no. It’s strictly addressed to God, with the pastor absolving on behalf of Christ. It wouldn’t be customary, even outside of a liturgical setting, for a Lutheran to ask another Christian to pray that their sins are forgiven. For other purposes (health, family, finances, etc.), yes.

 

[SteveVH]

Not as part of the recited confession, no. It’s strictly addressed to God, with the pastor absolving on behalf of Christ. It wouldn’t be customary, even outside of a liturgical setting, for a Lutheran to ask another Christian to pray that their sins are forgiven. For other purposes (health, family, finances, etc.), yes.

Well, I don’t believe that we are asking the angels and saints and our brothers and sisters here on earth to pray that our sins be forgiven. In the Confiteor, we admit our sinfulness and ask that they pray for us, to help us in the struggle. That has always been my take on it anyway. And this is certainly not the case in the sacrament of Reconciliation. This is a conversation directly between the penitent and Christ, through the priest who sits in persona Christi.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Per_Crucem]

Well, I don’t believe that we are asking the angels and saints and our brothers and sisters here on earth to pray that our sins be forgiven. In the Confiteor, we admit our sinfulness and ask that they pray for us, to help us in the struggle. That has always been my take on it anyway. And this is certainly not the case in the sacrament of Reconciliation. This is a conversation directly between the penitent and Christ, through the priest who sits in persona Christi.

Peace.

Steve

Lutherans would understand the in persona Christi part of that. I’ve always understood that Catholics do believe our sins can be forgiven through others intercessions? I know it is true of the Orthodox.

 

[JRKH]

Not as part of the recited confession, no. It’s strictly addressed to God, with the pastor absolving on behalf of Christ. It wouldn’t be customary, even outside of a liturgical setting, for a Lutheran to ask another Christian to pray that their sins are forgiven. For other purposes (health, family, finances, etc.), yes.

Well, I don’t believe that we are asking the angels and saints and our brothers and sisters here on earth to pray that our sins be forgiven. In the Confiteor, we admit our sinfulness and ask that they pray for us, to help us in the struggle. That has always been my take on it anyway. And this is certainly not the case in the sacrament of Reconciliation. This is a conversation directly between the penitent and Christ, through the priest who sits in persona Christi.

Peace.

Steve

Instead of going back and forth about how each of us pray…I thought I would post the Catholic Confiteor and perhaps Per Curucem can post the Lutheran Version.

In the mass we pray:
I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Peace
James

 

[SteveVH]

Instead of going back and forth about how each of us pray…I thought I would post the Catholic Confiteor and perhaps Per Curucem can post the Lutheran Version.

In the mass we pray:
I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Peace
James

Thanks, James, good suggestion. I have already stated the Confiteor in Post #12:

Catholics acknowledge their sinfulness every Sunday by reciting the Confiteor.

“I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.”

And, as I look back through the posts, the general confession of Lutherans has also been stated:

“All-Powerful God, merciful Father, I, a poor, pitiful sinner, confess to You all my sins and unrighteousness. By them I have continually offended You and fairly deserved Your punishment, both now and eternally. But from my heart I am sorry for them, and I sincerely repent of them, and I pray You, in Your limitless mercy for the sake of the holy, innocent, bitter sufferings and death of Your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, be gracious and merciful to me, a poor, sinful being.”

I just didn’t read carefully enough. There is no intercessory prayer involved in the Lutheran version. I was thrown off track by the comment that the Lutheran version was the same as the Catholic version, with the exception of asking Mary to pray for us. So the entire conversation regarding Mary is moot, at this point.

Peace.

Steve

 

[rcwitness]

I just didn’t read carefully enough. There is no intercessory prayer involved in the Lutheran version. I was thrown off track by the comment that the Lutheran version was the same as the Catholic version, with the exception of asking Mary to pray for us. So the entire conversation regarding Mary is moot, at this point.

Unfortunately, Jesus Himself is not explicitly mentioned in the Catholic confiteor. But God is directly addressed, and Jesus is implied when requesting intercession made to Him through others. The only personal name mentioned is Mary.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I just didn’t read carefully enough. There is no intercessory prayer involved in the Lutheran version. I was thrown off track by the comment that the Lutheran version was the same as the Catholic version, with the exception of asking Mary to pray for us. So the entire conversation regarding Mary is moot, at this point.

Peace.

Steve

Not to confuse you further lol but the rite of confession is different based on the order of Divine Service. For Divine Service III, the form is very similar to that of the Roman rite. While it’s not intercessary, it does skirt that line:

“I confess to God Almighty, before the whole company of heaven and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned in thought, word, and deed by my fault, by my own fault, by my own most grievous fault; wherefore I pray God Almighty to have mercy on me, forgive me all my sins, and bring me to everlasting life. Amen.”

 

[steve_b]

More relevant passages…
1 John 5

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin -]not leading to death/-], that is mortal, he shall ask, and God[a] will give him life—to those who commit sins that -]do not lead to death/-] is mortal. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that -]does not lead to death/-] is mortal.

18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Just some comments. Re: 1 John 5:16 , 1 John 5:17

My highlighting above and additions, shows how and where some translations can be less than clear for Protestants.

For example

• For Protestants, what does it mean that some sins don’t lead to death and others do? Obviously everybody dies. So which sins are the deadly kind?
• If Protestants don’t see “mortal” in the passage they think Catholics are making it up

In vs 13 John says

13 I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him"

why would John THEN warn in the next verse 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal

• Then John says, "There is sin that leads to death (that is mortal) I do not say that one should pray for that.

The Protestant has to ask, Really??? he doesn’t recommend prayer to get rid of the mortal kind? Say WHAT?

the distinction here between types of sins ( Mortal vs non mortal sin) is obviously a major distinction. While prayer disposes of at least the ones that are not mortal, John doesn’t say how to get rid of the mortal type in these verses. He covered THAT here John20:23

So the Protestant asks

• Are mortal sins listed in scripture? Yes
• do they say mortal next to them? No
• How do we know they are mortal? Scripture gives us their consequences if one dies in them. The consequence tells us those sins are deadly to the soul. i.e. when it says one won’t be going to heaven. i.e. they go to hell. THAT’S deadly, i.e. mortal
• Therefore non mortal sin, doesn’t send on to hell.

Where are Mortal sins listed in scripture? #15

How does one for sure, get rid of mortal sin on the soul. By the sacrament of reconcilliation John20:23 , ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=sacrament+of+reconciliation&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

From the CCC
**1861 **Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

**1457 **According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession. Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.

Absolution & contrition
“By itself however, **imperfect contrition **cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance” see 1453

Protestants don’t have this sacrament. Nor can they walk off the street and go to confession to a Catholic priest
http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...ed-on-the-lord-may-i-confess-my-sins-to-a-pri

 

[Kliska]

I’m not sure we protestants believe in “imperfect contrition.” I’ve always understood the contrition that we are supposed to feel for sin committed should always be the contrition that the RCC defines as “perfect contrition.”

 

[steve_b]

I’m not sure we protestants believe in “imperfect contrition.” I’ve always understood the contrition that we are supposed to feel for sin committed should always be the contrition that the RCC defines as “perfect contrition.”

God instituted His sacraments in His Church for a reason. We are NOT perfect.

 

[SteveVH]

Not to confuse you further lol but the rite of confession is different based on the order of Divine Service. For Divine Service III, the form is very similar to that of the Roman rite. While it’s not intercessary, it does skirt that line:

“I confess to God Almighty, before the whole company of heaven and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned in thought, word, and deed by my fault, by my own fault, by my own most grievous fault; wherefore I pray God Almighty to have mercy on me, forgive me all my sins, and bring me to everlasting life. Amen.”

Wow! That seems to more than “skirt that line”. The “whole company of heaven and to you, my brothers and sisters” pretty much covers the Catholic version.

Thanks for this.

Steve

 

[SteveVH]

I’m not sure we protestants believe in “imperfect contrition.” I’ve always understood the contrition that we are supposed to feel for sin committed should always be the contrition that the RCC defines as “perfect contrition.”

What we are “suppose to feel” is one thing. What most of us are capable of feeling is quite another. If we have perfect contrition we do not even have to confess our sins. The reason is that we are not capable of realizing how offensive our sins actually are to God and therefore cannot summon a corresponding degree of sorrow for those sins.

Peace.

Steve