Protestants and Mortal Sin.

[Denise1957]

I’m glad to see a comparison of the Confiteor in both Catholic and Lutheran settings. I’d like to post the Confiteor from the 1962 missal, which is from the Extraordinary form of the Catholic Mass, Roman Rite. The priest says the Confiteor to himself firstly, and then the server responds also with the Confiteor, and we can silently pray along. If we are contrite for our sins, it has the ability to remit venial sins. Here’s the old version of the Confiteor (server’s response):

“I confess to almighty God, to the Blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the saints, and to you Father (meaning the priest), that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter, Paul, and all the saints, and you, Father, to pray to the Lord our God, for me.”

According to Dom Prosper Geuranger (from his book, The Holy Mass), this formula of confession probably dates from the 8th century.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Wow! That seems to more than “skirt that line”. The “whole company of heaven and to you, my brothers and sisters” pretty much covers the Catholic version.

Thanks for this.

Steve

It’s one of those bizarre anomalies of Lutheranism where it throws itself full force into the church Catholic and then stops just shy and yells “No, we’re not like THAT.”

 

[SteveVH]

I’m glad to see a comparison of the Confiteor in both Catholic and Lutheran settings. I’d like to post the Confiteor from the 1962 missal, which is from the Extraordinary form of the Catholic Mass, Roman Rite. The priest says the Confiteor to himself firstly, and then the server responds also with the Confiteor, and we can silently pray along. If we are contrite for our sins, it has the ability to remit venial sins. Here’s the old version of the Confiteor (server’s response):

“I confess to almighty God, to the Blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the saints, and to you Father (meaning the priest), that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter, Paul, and all the saints, and you, Father, to pray to the Lord our God, for me.”

According to Dom Prosper Geuranger (from his book, The Holy Mass), this formula of confession probably dates from the 8th century.

Thanks for this, Denise.

 

[SteveVH]

It’s one of those bizarre anomalies of Lutheranism where it throws itself full force into the church Catholic and then stops just shy and yells “No, we’re not like THAT.”

lol.

 

[spedteacherita]

Instead of going back and forth about how each of us pray…I thought I would post the Catholic Confiteor and perhaps Per Curucem can post the Lutheran Version.
Peace
James

I thought I would share the LCMS version - I don’t have one of the newest hymnals which would have the most current wordage but this really hasn’t changed much over the years.

Oh, almighty God, merciful Father, I, a poor miserable sinner, confess to You all my sins and iniquities with which I have ever offended You and justly deserved your temporal and eternal punishment. But I am heartily sorry for them and I sincerely repent of them, and I pray You of Your boundless mercy and for the sake of the holy, innocent, bitter sufferings and death of Your Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to be gracious and merciful to me, a poor, sinful being.

Pastor responds:

Upon this, your confession, I, by virtue of my office as a called and ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of God unto all of you , and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Kliska]

God instituted His sacraments in His Church for a reason. We are NOT perfect.

Of course we, as human beings, are not perfect.

What we are “suppose to feel” is one thing. What most of us are capable of feeling is quite another. If we have perfect contrition we do not even have to confess our sins. The reason is that we are not capable of realizing how offensive our sins actually are to God and therefore cannot summon a corresponding degree of sorrow for those sins.

Peace.

Steve

I’m not trying to be dense, but that is something I can’t quite grasp, as I’ve always been taught it is Godly sorrow that worketh repentance. When someone talks about just being sorry for something because they may get in trouble for it, or reap worldly consequences, I don’t “get that.” When we sin, we wound Christ by adding to His suffering on the cross, it is that that grieves the heart in a way that is a deep sorrow… that has us on our knees, not in public but alone with God, and weeping. I don’t know, it never seemed to be left open for me, as I was taught, to “just” feel what is labeled “imperfect contrition.” But, perhaps it is just a different perspective, or I’m missing something, or I’m not understanding.

I had a friend of mine, who is a believer, that I asked if he had ever had those moments of being on the floor and wracked with a sense of one’s own guilt and sin, and having those moments of sorrow not expressible by words… and then felt really awkward when he said, “no” and went about his merry way.

 

[Denise1957]

I thought I would share the LCMS version - I don’t have one of the newest hymnals which would have the most current wordage but this really hasn’t changed much over the years.

Thanks for posting this, Rita. Your version of the people’s confession is just between the people and Jesus, which is what I’d expect in a Lutheran version, and that’s fine.

The Catholic version calls upon the Church Triumphant (saints in Heaven) to help us by praying for us in our need of contrition and in particular, absolution.

In the Old Mass, which I mentioned in my last post, a little while after the server’s response (Confiteor), and after the priest ascends to the altar, the priest says silently on our behalf:

“Take away from us our iniquities, we beseech Thee, O Lord, that we may be worthy to enter with pure minds into the Holy of Holies: through Christ our Lord. Amen”

Then with hands joined, and bowing down over the altar, the priest says:

“We beseech Thee, O Lord, by the merits of Thy Saints, whose relics are here, and of all the saints, that Thou wouldst vouchsafe to forgive me all my sins. Amen.”

So our Lord Jesus is addressed in relation to asking forgiveness of sins, but not in the actual Confiteor itself, but a little while later.

 

[rcwitness]

My highlighting above and additions, shows how and where some translations can be less than clear for Protestants.

I usually use the RSV-CE for my quotes. I personally most often use the ESV and RSV-CE bibles. I prefer the RSV-CE in most cases, yet as in this passage, it is usually both which are equally sufficient translations.

This (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=949771) is a recent thread about the passage and my understanding of it. I dont think it is addressing the Sacrament directly, but John is talking about the power and limitation of intercessory prayer for brothers in the Church.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m not trying to be dense, but that is something I can’t quite grasp, as I’ve always been taught it is Godly sorrow that worketh repentance. When someone talks about just being sorry for something because they may get in trouble for it, or reap worldly consequences, I don’t “get that.” When we sin, we wound Christ by adding to His suffering on the cross, it is that that grieves the heart in a way that is a deep sorrow… that has us on our knees, not in public but alone with God, and weeping. I don’t know, it never seemed to be left open for me, as I was taught, to “just” feel what is labeled “imperfect contrition.” But, perhaps it is just a different perspective, or I’m missing something, or I’m not understanding.

I had a friend of mine, who is a believer, that I asked if he had ever had those moments of being on the floor and wracked with a sense of one’s own guilt and sin, and having those moments of sorrow not expressible by words… and then felt really awkward when he said, “no” and went about his merry way.

 

[Per_Crucem]

lol.

Seriously…It’s like, yes, we’re going to open our hearts to confessing to the denizens of heaven…BUT…we’re not going to add the “and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God.” It’s like, why not? If you’re confessing to them, is it just for show or do you actually want them to do something about it, like you know, PRAY FOR YOU.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m not trying to be dense, but that is something I can’t quite grasp, as I’ve always been taught it is Godly sorrow that worketh repentance. When someone talks about just being sorry for something because they may get in trouble for it, or reap worldly consequences, I don’t “get that.” When we sin, we wound Christ by adding to His suffering on the cross, it is that that grieves the heart in a way that is a deep sorrow… that has us on our knees, not in public but alone with God, and weeping. I don’t know, it never seemed to be left open for me, as I was taught, to “just” feel what is labeled “imperfect contrition.” But, perhaps it is just a different perspective, or I’m missing something, or I’m not understanding.

Don’t confuse "perfect "contrition with “authentic” contrition. Yes, I think most of us, if not all, feel true sorrow for our sins and therefore our contrition is authentic rather than fabricated. But is it perfect? As I said, we cannot know the depth of the offensiveness of our sins to God so how can we have a corresponding level of sorrow for what we have done?

Have you ever experienced finding out that what you said to someone hurt them, much more deeply than you had first imagined? We may feel bad for saying what we said, but we may feel much worse about it when we realize that it hurt them more profoundly than we had first thought.

God bless.

Steve

 

[spedteacherita]

Of course we, as human beings, are not perfect.

I’m not trying to be dense, but that is something I can’t quite grasp, as I’ve always been taught it is Godly sorrow that worketh repentance. When someone talks about just being sorry for something because they may get in trouble for it, or reap worldly consequences, I don’t “get that.” When we sin, we wound Christ by adding to His suffering on the cross, it is that that grieves the heart in a way that is a deep sorrow… that has us on our knees, not in public but alone with God, and weeping. I don’t know, it never seemed to be left open for me, as I was taught, to “just” feel what is labeled “imperfect contrition.” But, perhaps it is just a different perspective, or I’m missing something, or I’m not understanding.

I had a friend of mine, who is a believer, that I asked if he had ever had those moments of being on the floor and wracked with a sense of one’s own guilt and sin, and having those moments of sorrow not expressible by words… and then felt really awkward when he said, “no” and went about his merry way.

Don’t you all think that there are many Christians of ALL faiths who feel this? I think there are!!

and…unfortunately, there are those who don’t realize the depth of hurt and pain that Christ went thru on that cross to be the “sacrifice” for our sins.

To be fair, also, we cannot judge a person like Kliska’s friend because we don’t really know what’s in his heart. Perhaps something in his life is preventing him - blocking him from wanting to know or understand it.

Just some wanderings in this brain of mine…

God Bless!

Rita

 

[Kliska]

Don’t confuse "perfect "contrition with “authentic” contrition. Yes, I think most of us, if not all, feel true sorrow for our sins and therefore our contrition is authentic rather than fabricated. But is it perfect? As I said, we cannot know the depth of the offensiveness of our sins to God so how can we have a corresponding level of sorrow for what we have done?

Have you ever experienced finding out that what you said to someone hurt them, much more deeply than you had first imagined? We may feel bad for saying what we said, but we may feel much worse about it when we realize that it hurt them more profoundly than we had first thought.

God bless.

Steve

Then is it the CC’s position that perfect contrition is actually impossible? I do understand that the belief isn’t “just” perfect contrition, but also the idea that one is going to confession ASAP, but for protestants, obviously that is less the focus than realizing our sin offends God to the level it does. That is possible through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SteveVH]

Seriously…It’s like, yes, we’re going to open our hearts to confessing to the denizens of heaven…BUT…we’re not going to add the “and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God.” It’s like, why not? If you’re confessing to them, is it just for show or do you actually want them to do something about it, like you know, PRAY FOR YOU.

That was my thought. But I’m glad you’re the one who stated it.

 

[steve_b]

Of course we, as human beings, are not perfect.

ergo Jesus established His sacraments. It is His will for us, to avail ourselves of them. Not go around them.

 

[steve_b]

Thanks for posting this, Rita. Your version of the people’s confession is just between the people and Jesus, which is what I’d expect in a Lutheran version, and that’s fine.

The Catholic version calls upon the Church Triumphant (saints in Heaven) to help us by praying for us in our need of contrition and in particular, absolution.

In the Old Mass, which I mentioned in my last post, a little while after the server’s response (Confiteor), and after the priest ascends to the altar, the priest says silently on our behalf:

“Take away from us our iniquities, we beseech Thee, O Lord, that we may be worthy to enter with pure minds into the Holy of Holies: through Christ our Lord. Amen”

And because of that all our venial sins are forgiven
D:

Then with hands joined, and bowing down over the altar, the priest says:

“We beseech Thee, O Lord, by the merits of Thy Saints, whose relics are here, and of all the saints, that Thou wouldst vouchsafe to forgive me all my sins. Amen.”

As an aside, a priest can’t forgive his own mortal sins. He has to confess them as well to another priest.

 

[Denise1957]

As an aside, a priest can’t forgive his own mortal sins. He has to confess them as well to another priest.

I don’t know what you mean by the above comment. Could you explain?

 

[SteveVH]

Then is it the CC’s position that perfect contrition is actually impossible? I do understand that the belief isn’t “just” perfect contrition, but also the idea that one is going to confession ASAP, but for protestants, obviously that is less the focus than realizing our sin offends God to the level it does. That is possible through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Perfect contrition is possible, but very rare, and certainly not something on which we should depend. How can one know if one truly realizes the level of offense against God? We certainly cannot just assume that we do. I certainly will not claim to have that knowledge. And I don’t think Protestants have any greater access to the power of the Holy Spirit than does a Catholic.

There are some Catholic theologians who believe that this is exactly what purgatory is. It is finally attaining the realization of the extent to which we have offended God, and the sorrow we will feel is likened to burning flames. I have wept for my sins, but not very often, and never to that extent.

God bless.

Steve

 

[Denise1957]

As an aside, a priest can’t forgive his own mortal sins. He has to confess them as well to another priest.

True. But I assume that the rubrics here call for the priest to ask forgiveness in a general sense, though I can’t know that for sure. The Latin term for ‘all’ in the rubrics of the Old Mass is ‘omnia.’ which means ‘all,’ or 'all things, or ‘everything.’ The rubrics define it as ‘all’, but it can have a wider meaning than that. I’m confident that there’s a reasonable explanation for it, since these rubrics were in use for many centuries (preceding the 1962 missal).

 

[SteveVH]

True. But I assume that the rubrics here call for the priest to ask forgiveness in a general sense, though I can’t know that for sure.

Nor sure what you mean here. Are you assuming that when a priest confesses his own sins that it is in a general sense and that he does not have to confess the particular sins?