Protestants and Mortal Sin.

[Denise1957]

Nor sure what you mean here. Are you assuming that when a priest confesses his own sins that it is in a general sense and that he does not have to confess the particular sins?

In sounds, from the rubrics, that he is asking for forgiveness in a general sense, as in asking forgiveness for all of the sins he has ever committed, or something like that. Like I said, I don’t know for sure, since I’m certainly no authority on the matter. If you’re worried about it, you might want to contact the USCCB, or maybe start a thread in the traditional section of the forum about it. They might be able to help you to further understand what it means. I’m not worried about it myself.

 

[SteveVH]

In sounds, from the rubrics, that he is asking for forgiveness in a general sense, as in asking forgiveness for all of the sins he has ever committed, or something like that. Like I said, I don’t know for sure, since I’m certainly no authority on the matter. If you’re worried about it, you might want to contact the USCCB, or maybe start a thread in the traditional section of the forum about it. They might be able to help you to further understand what it means. I’m not worried about it myself.

I guess I am lost here. Rubrics tell us when to stand, when to kneel, when to sit, when to bow… I must have missed something. I will re-read the posts.

Edit:
Never mind. I found your reference. But this is not in regards to the priest’s personal confession. That is where I was getting confused.

Blessings.

Steve

 

[Denise1957]

I guess I am lost here. Rubrics tell us when to stand, when to kneel, when to sit, when to bow… I must have missed something. I will re-read the posts.

I apologize for using the wrong terminology, such as ‘rubrics’. I should have said ‘words in the missal,’ or something like that. If you’re looking for flaws in my posts, you will certainly find them. Feel free to do so! I don’t mind.

 

[SteveVH]

I apologize for using the wrong terminology, such as ‘rubrics’. I should have said ‘words in the missal,’ or something like that. If you’re looking for flaws in my posts, you will certainly find them. Feel free to do so! I don’t mind.

Not my intention whatsoever. I would be the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

I just edited my post but you were too quick on the draw. You were not referencing the priest’s personal confession and that is where I got confused. Apologies.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Denise1957]

Not my intention whatsoever. I would be the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

I just edited my post but you were too quick on the draw. You were not referencing the priest’s personal confession and that is where I got confused. Apologies.

Peace.

Steve

Thanks!

 

[steve_b]

Then is it the CC’s position that perfect contrition is actually impossible?

For purposes of discussion, turn this around. Do you want to be left guessing whether you made a perfect contrition or not? Just being transparent, I sure wouldn’t. I want to be sure that if I commit a mortal sin my mortal sins are GONE. No guessing about it. That’s only possible with the sacrament Our Lord established.
K:

I do understand that the belief isn’t “just” perfect contrition, but also the idea that one is going to confession ASAP,

IOW without the sacrament, one isn’t to take their own “contrition” or as being “perfect”
K:

but for protestants, obviously that is less the focus than realizing our sin offends God to the level it does. That is possible through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Catholics would respond, realizing our offense to God, is what causes and motivates us to seek the sacrament of reconciliation. Jesus established His sacraments and Catholics know sacraments do what He says they will do. And because the HS doesn’t speak on His own John 16:12-15 we know He won’t be telling people different and conflicting notions.

As Paul puts it, In Context .

• Paul’s use of one body σῶμα, there really is only one body the Church in his day, as there is only one body the Church today. #[34 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11997086&postcount=34)

Re: Believe in Jesus, John 3:36 Jesus equates belief in Him to obedience in EVERYTHING He says.

 

[Kliska]

For purposes of discussion, turn this around. Do you want to be left guessing whether you made a perfect contrition or not? Just being transparent, I sure wouldn’t. I want to be sure that if I commit a mortal sin my mortal sins are GONE. No guessing about it. That’s only possible with the sacrament Our Lord established.

Most protestants wouldn’t wrestle with this* in the same manner* as a Catholic.

IOW without the sacrament, one isn’t to take their own “contrition” or as being “perfect”

Watching EWTN, I’ve heard several priests and teachers discussing the application of perfect contrition to protestants, so it would, by necessity, be “without the sacrament.”

Catholics would respond, realizing our offense to God, is what causes and motivates us to seek the sacrament of reconciliation. Jesus established His sacraments and Catholics know sacraments do what He says they will do. And because the HS doesn’t speak on His own John 16:12-15 we know He won’t be telling people different and conflicting notions.

As Paul puts it, In Context .

• Paul’s use of one body σῶμα, there really is only one body the Church in his day, as there is only one body the Church today. #[34 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11997086&postcount=34)

Re: Believe in Jesus, John 3:36 Jesus equates belief in Him to obedience in EVERYTHING He says.

We would all agree to that, what we wouldn’t agree on is the application and interpretation of everything He says.

 

[steve_b]

True. But I assume that the rubrics here call for the priest to ask forgiveness in a general sense, though I can’t know that for sure. The Latin term for ‘all’ in the rubrics of the Old Mass is ‘omnia.’ which means ‘all,’ or 'all things, or ‘everything.’ The rubrics define it as ‘all’, but it can have a wider meaning than that. I’m confident that there’s a reasonable explanation for it, since these rubrics were in use for many centuries (preceding the 1962 missal).

That forgiveness, was not meant in context as a general absolution.

 

[SteveVH]

Most protestants wouldn’t wrestle with this* in the same manner* as a Catholic.

True. But from our view, this is a great spiritual danger to those Protestants.

Watching EWTN, I’ve heard several priests and teachers discussing the application of perfect contrition to protestants, so it would, by necessity, be “without the sacrament.”

I think you misunderstood what they were saying. It is along the same lines as being saved through invincible ignorance. Through perfect contrition a Protestant can be forgiven outside of the sacrament. But again, this is a rarity and not something upon which anyone should depend.

 

[Per_Crucem]

True. But from our view, this is a great spiritual danger to those Protestants.

I think you misunderstood what they were saying. It is along the same lines as being saved through invincible ignorance. Through perfect contrition a Protestant can be forgiven outside of the sacrament. But again, this is a rarity and not something upon which anyone should depend.

I think this ties in well with your other post on the necessity of the Eucharist. The same is true of confession. We should not be preaching the minimum necessary for salvation. There’s no such thing as mere Christianity!

 

[SteveVH]

I think this ties in well with your other post on the necessity of the Eucharist. The same is true of confession. We should not be preaching the minimum necessary for salvation. There’s no such thing as mere Christianity!

Absolutely!

 

[cmodrmac]

" **We do. From the Lutheran Service Book Divine Service:

“Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean. We have sinned again You in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We justly deserve Your present and eternal punishment. For the sake of Your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in Your will and walk in Your ways to the glory of Your holy name. Amen.”

Prior to this confession, we have a period of silence to confess particular sins as well.

This is exactly the same as ours-also we can request individual confession

 

[Kliska]

True. But from our view, this is a great spiritual danger to those Protestants.

From your POV, yes, it would seem a danger, but not from ours, that’s a component of it.

I think you misunderstood what they were saying. It is along the same lines as being saved through invincible ignorance. Through perfect contrition a Protestant can be forgiven outside of the sacrament. But again, this is a rarity and not something upon which anyone should depend.

No, that’s what I meant. They were making a point of a “perfect act of contrition” applying to protestants, but that wouldn’t “look” the same for us as it would for you. From a Catholic POV the person has to resolve to go to confession ASAP, for us that wouldn’t be involved in the same manner.

 

[Reuben_J]

Then is it the CC’s position that perfect contrition is actually impossible? I do understand that the belief isn’t “just” perfect contrition, but also the idea that one is going to confession ASAP, but for protestants, obviously that is less the focus than realizing our sin offends God to the level it does. That is possible through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Just curious. Is there any parameter/standard in Protestantism as to what level in our contrition that is sufficient for God’s absolution/forgiveness? Does contrition require penance, for example?

In Catholicism, Sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession roughly requires these four steps: (1) Contrition (2) Confession (3) Penance and (4) Restitution, if needs be.

Even though Confession needs to be done ASAP, one still can go ahead with the other three steps if a priest is unavailable.

 

[Kliska]

Just curious. Is there any parameter/standard in Protestantism as to what level in our contrition that is sufficient for God’s absolution/forgiveness? Does contrition require penance, for example?

In Catholicism, Sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession roughly requires these four steps: (1) Contrition (2) Confession (3) Penance and (4) Restitution, if needs be.

Even though Confession needs to be done ASAP, one still can go ahead with the other three steps if a priest is unavailable.

As many things in the “protestant world” you’ll find variation on the idea. The main issues would be contrition and confession to God which included repenting, and confession, contrition, and restitution to the person or people the sin may also have been against. So if I sin against my husband, I would experience contrition and should confess both to God and to my husband asking forgiveness from both, and trying to make some type of restitution, not to “make up for the sin” but rather to repair the earthly consequence and show resolve to not let it happen again with the help of God. Penance is seen as humbling oneself.

So the ideas of confession to God, to one another, restitution, etc… are all there in protestant thought and action, they don’t usually look exactly like the CC’s view and actions.

 

[rcwitness]

I think this ties in well with your other post on the necessity of the Eucharist. The same is true of confession. We should not be preaching the minimum necessary for salvation. There’s no such thing as mere Christianity!

Thats an interesting observation. Ive often thought this about the denominations. I think there is a genuine goodness in knowing a basic, simple, and fundamental gospel of salvation. But there is also a danger in trying to remove valid depth and understanding about salvation. It can be good to be simple and it can be bad.

Proverbs 9:6
"Leave simpleness, and live, and walk in the way of insight.”

Peter brings to light the need to keep salvation simple and pure, being based on conversion of the heart.

Acts 15

"8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

While the Apostle also reminds us to continue and grow in the knowledge of our salvation, in order to remain in it.

Hebrews 5

“For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food;for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child.”

 

[Reuben_J]

As many things in the “protestant world” you’ll find variation on the idea. The main issues would be contrition and confession to God which included repenting, and confession, contrition, and restitution to the person or people the sin may also have been against. So if I sin against my husband, I would experience contrition and should confess both to God and to my husband asking forgiveness from both, and trying to make some type of restitution, not to “make up for the sin” but rather to repair the earthly consequence and show resolve to not let it happen again with the help of God. Penance is seen as humbling oneself.

So the ideas of confession to God, to one another, restitution, etc… are all there in protestant thought and action, they don’t usually look exactly like the CC’s view and actions.

Thanks for the clarification.

I guess it pretty much contains the Catholic’s elements of contrition except for confession to a priest and a somewhat different focus in penance as humbling of oneself is already subscribed quite a lot in making up to God and the one we sin against. Prayers and maybe to a lesser extent, work of charity, are usually the tangible form of penance for Catholics.

I am asking because the topic of perfect contrition was being brought up. A pure contrite of heart, a sincere regret and remorse for one’s action, would necessarily allowed oneself to go to any length to show for it. Confessing to another person, a priest as representing Christ, is often seen as the ultimate humility that arise from sincerity of regretting one’s sin.

While we cannot know for sure whether we make a perfect contrition, subjecting ourselves to confess our sin to a priest in a sacrament, perhaps makes up for any shortcoming in our own contrition.

God bless.

 

[steve_b]

Most protestants wouldn’t wrestle with this* in the same manner* as a Catholic.

John is saying, confidence in prayer, as in what we ask for will be done, John 14:14 , 1 John 5:14-15 … however it has a caveot. “When we keep his commandments and do what pleases Him” 1 John 3:22

Again, Jesus established His sacrament of reconciliation, because one’s prayer alone isn’t necessarily coming from a perfect place within the individual. Therefore, perfect contrition isn’t a gurantee either, no matter how one “feels” during their prayer. The reason being, feelings can deceive…agreed?

Our Lord knows we need something bonafide, and clearly outside of our “feelings” of the moment.
K:

Watching EWTN, I’ve heard several priests and teachers discussing the application of perfect contrition to protestants, so it would, by necessity, be “without the sacrament.”

Just thinking outloud

if we presume “perfect contrition” is there each and every time one prays for forgiveness, that would mean in extension, Jesus wasted His time instituting the sacrament of reconciliation.
K:

We would all agree to that, what we wouldn’t agree on is the application and interpretation of everything He says.

could you be more specific? Here’s what I said

"Catholics would respond, realizing our offense to God, is what causes and motivates us to seek the sacrament of reconciliation. Jesus established His sacraments and Catholics know sacraments do what He says they will do. And because the HS doesn’t speak on His own John 16:12-15 we know He won’t be telling people different and conflicting notions.

As Paul puts it, In Context .

• Paul’s use of one body σῶμα, there really is only one body the Church in his day, as there is only one body the Church today. #[34 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11997086&postcount=34)

Re: Believe in Jesus, John 3:36 Jesus equates belief in Him to obedience in EVERYTHING He says. "
Q: When you say, what we wouldn’t agree on is the application and interpretation of everything He says. could you explain?