Protestants and Muslims - Understanding Scriptural Authority

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Protestants base their authority from Scripture alone and claim there is no need for an organized religious institution to rightly interpret Scripture with Authority.

Muslims believe the Qu’ran is the revealed word of Allah/God and also believe no religious institution should interpret the ayas on their behalf. All Muslims are free to interpret the Qu’ran as they see fit but must be uniform about their beliefs as a brotherhood.

Seeing that the two are in many ways similar about scriptural authority, how can Muslims and Protestants learn from one another and also differentiate from each other?

Please feel free to discuss as i will take this opportunity to also learn.
 
I would expect both Protestants and Muslims to at least start discussing on the subject but i guess the avoidence on the subject must be an implication they do agree with one another but won’t admit to it.
 
Protestants base their authority from Scripture alone and claim there is no need for an organized religious institution to rightly interpret Scripture with Authority.

Muslims believe the Qu’ran is the revealed word of Allah/God and also believe no religious institution should interpret the ayas on their behalf. All Muslims are free to interpret the Qu’ran as they see fit but must be uniform about their beliefs as a brotherhood.

Seeing that the two are in many ways similar about scriptural authority, how can Muslims and Protestants learn from one another and also differentiate from each other?

Please feel free to discuss as i will take this opportunity to also learn.
You left out the Jews who believe scripture are the oracles of God. They also do not have a centralized
authority.
You left out also the Orthodox and Coptic Churches and their system of interpreting scripture.
Seems like you need to put mor thought into it.
 
You left out the Jews who believe scripture are the oracles of God. They also do not have a centralized
authority.
You left out also the Orthodox and Coptic Churches and their system of interpreting scripture.
Seems like you need to put mor thought into it.
This discussion is not about the Orthodox or the Coptic churches or the Jews. I specifically mentioned Protestants and Muslims and i’m more interested in what both parties have to say on the subject.
 
I’m not sure what needs to be said, some Protestants approach the Bible just like some Muslims approach the Koran…

Okay.

I am not sure what this is supposed to mean though.

Roman Catholicism shares a great deal in their understanding of religious authority with a number of pagan religions having high priests and strictly delineated norms for liturgical action and morality.
 
This discussion is not about the Orthodox or the Coptic churches or the Jews. I specifically mentioned Protestants and Muslims and i’m more interested in what both parties have to say on the subject.
The unsaid inference is that Protestants and Muslims do it this way, Catholics do it this other way so Protestants and Muslims must be wrong.
 
Protestants base their authority from Scripture alone and claim there is no need for an organized religious institution to rightly interpret Scripture with Authority.

Muslims believe the Qu’ran is the revealed word of Allah/God and also believe no religious institution should interpret the ayas on their behalf. All Muslims are free to interpret the Qu’ran as they see fit but must be uniform about their beliefs as a brotherhood.

Seeing that the two are in many ways similar about scriptural authority, how can Muslims and Protestants learn from one another and also differentiate from each other?

Please feel free to discuss as i will take this opportunity to also learn.
How can the Muslims and the Protestant will learn from one another if Quran and Bible are completely different books.
 
I’m not sure what needs to be said, some Protestants approach the Bible just like some Muslims approach the Koran…

Okay.

I am not sure what this is supposed to mean though.

Roman Catholicism shares a great deal in their understanding of religious authority with a number of pagan religions having high priests and strictly delineated norms for liturgical action and morality.
Catholicism has more in common with the shared elements of the ancient Hebraic priesthood than any pagan influences you can think of. But that’s besides the point.

What i am trying to say is that i find the Protestant and Muslim factors very similar. They both hold on to sola scriptura, they both hold that no authority should interpret holy texts and they both share certain elements of their faiths, like for example; God predestines anyone to hell from eternity without any consideration of their own free will decisions.
 
Catholicism has more in common with the shared elements of the ancient Hebraic priesthood than any pagan influences you can think of. But that’s besides the point.

What i am trying to say is that i find the Protestant and Muslim factors very similar. They both hold on to sola scriptura, they both hold that no authority should interpret holy texts and they both share certain elements of their faiths, like for example; God predestines anyone to hell from eternity without any consideration of their own free will decisions.
A significant organic factor for the Aaronic priesthood is that it’s hereditary. Is the Catholic priesthood hereditary?

Another important factor is that the Aaronic priesthood exercised liturgical function in a single location (the temple of Jerusalem). Do Catholic priests do this, do they all take turns serving and officiating at mass only in St. Peter’s basilica and NOWHERE else?

How about this, do Catholic priests marry and have children?

The only similarity I can see is that they (claim to) offer intercessory sacrifice and they are part of a hierarchy ordered under a high priest.

Oh, I guess the Jews would fight over who got to be high priest, often paying for the privilege and trying as hard as they could to keep it in their family; they have that in common with Catholicism too.

At any rate the only organic similarity between the Catholic priesthood and the Aaronic are exactly the things they share with any number of pagan priesthoods because they are common to any number of clerical orderings.

As for the rest, you’re entirely mistaken in how most Protestants approach Scripture:

Most interpret Scripture within both immediate and historical context, taking into account the interpretations of bible scholars throughout history, many of them Catholic.

Also, the idea that “God predestines anyone to hell from eternity without any consideration of their own free will decisions” is entirely alien to the vast, VAST majority of Protestants.

Frankly, this thread is asinine; you dribbled up a premise, threw it out there and expected Protestants to do what? Submit to it? When you don’t even know what Protestantism is?
 
A significant organic factor for the Aaronic priesthood is that it’s hereditary. Is the Catholic priesthood hereditary?
No, the Catholic priesthood does not practice nepotism. Interestingly enough, most Protestant churches have ministers who often involve their children in the ministry and once adults, take over their minister father’s role.
Another important factor is that the Aaronic priesthood exercised liturgical function in a single location (the temple of Jerusalem). Do Catholic priests do this, do they all take turns serving and officiating at mass only in St. Peter’s basilica and NOWHERE else?
Interesting. Your logic determines that all temples must be in Jerusalem in order to be valid. What about Jewish temples that are outside Israel?
How about this, do Catholic priests marry and have children?
You don’t know much about Catholicism, do you?
The only similarity I can see is that they (claim to) offer intercessory sacrifice and they are part of a hierarchy ordered under a high priest.
Something which some Protestant churches overlook because they do not believe in the Eucharist.
Oh, I guess the Jews would fight over who got to be high priest, often paying for the privilege and trying as hard as they could to keep it in their family; they have that in common with Catholicism too.
Really? Give one real world case.
At any rate the only organic similarity between the Catholic priesthood and the Aaronic are exactly the things they share with any number of pagan priesthoods because they are common to any number of clerical orderings.
So anything that has to do with hierarchy means they are influenced by paganism? You need to tell that to your ministers too.
As for the rest, you’re entirely mistaken in how most Protestants approach Scripture:

Most interpret Scripture within both immediate and historical context, taking into account the interpretations of bible scholars throughout history, many of them Catholic.
Yes, it was through the efforts of the Catholic Church that you have the Bible today. Unfortunately, it took one rogue priest to ruin it. Fortunately, he wasn’t able to mislead the entire Church. It took another motley crew of wannabe Luthers to completely ruin the essence of orthodox Christianity and form their own scholarly revisionist version of Church history.
Also, the idea that “God predestines anyone to hell from eternity without any consideration of their own free will decisions” is entirely alien to the vast, VAST majority of Protestants.
True, but the vast majority did at one point agree with alien theology - until they realized the errors. But the damage had been done.
Frankly, this thread is asinine; you dribbled up a premise, threw it out there and expected Protestants to do what? Submit to it? When you don’t even know what Protestantism is?
I asked for a sincere opinion. This thread could work both ways. It could work for Protestants like yourself or against Protestants. It all depends on how you want it to go. I went to numerous Protestant churches on my journey Home. I also spent 12 years studying in a Presbyterian missionary school as a student, took Bible Studies as a subject in school (and aced it) and was heavily involved in the Boys Brigade, although i was not yet a Christian back then. How much do you know about your own faith? Are you going to give me adult orientated opinions on the thread subject or are you going to continue whining? By the way, i have noticed most Protestants call threads that question their theology ‘asinine’. What’s new?
 
Protestants base their authority from Scripture alone and claim there is no need for an organized religious institution to rightly interpret Scripture with Authority.

Muslims believe the Qu’ran is the revealed word of Allah/God and also believe no religious institution should interpret the ayas on their behalf. All Muslims are free to interpret the Qu’ran as they see fit but must be uniform about their beliefs as a brotherhood.

Seeing that the two are in many ways similar about scriptural authority, how can Muslims and Protestants learn from one another and also differentiate from each other?

Please feel free to discuss as i will take this opportunity to also learn.
I think that you will find most Christians on here have little desire to learn from Islam. It might be the case that a few do but this would be an odd venue to do so. I would imagine an Islamic forum would have more of that activity.
I will not call the premise asinine…but very odd perhaps. Are you interested in Christian/Islam ecumenical activities? I have not read you very much but what I recall is more contrary to their teachings I thought…:confused:
 
No, the Catholic priesthood does not practice nepotism. Interestingly enough, most Protestant churches have ministers who often involve their children in the ministry and once adults, take over their minister father’s role.
I wasn’t the one relating the Catholic priesthood to the Aaronic, you were. If they were similar, my point is that one would expect to see this. Since they are not, we don’t.
Interesting. Your logic determines that all temples must be in Jerusalem in order to be valid. What about Jewish temples that are outside Israel?
Again, you’re the one equating the Catholic priesthood with the Aaronic. If they really are similar, one might expect to find this feature in the Catholic priesthood. We don’t because they aren’t similar beyond a generic idea of priesthood which the RCC shares with any number of religious orderings.
You don’t know much about Catholicism, do you?
You seem to be missing my point again. I know very well that Catholic priests do not marry and have children. My point is that Jewish priests did and if the Catholic priesthood really has so much in common with them one might expect to see this too among Catholic priests.

The reason we don’t is because, again, there is no particular similarity.
Really? Give one real world case.
The Borgias who bought the papacy. It is also commonly known that the papacy was, during the renaissance, a prize over which the great families of Italy fought both clandestine and overt battles.

The sale of episcopal sees generally was a growth industry during the same period.
So anything that has to do with hierarchy means they are influenced by paganism? You need to tell that to your ministers too.
You can’t be this obtuse.

I didn’t say that. What I said what that there are features common to the idea of a priest which Catholicism shares with all religions having priests. I chose the example of pagans because it would be every bit as stark as your effort to relate Islam and Protestantism with the added bonus of being grounded in reality.
Yes, it was through the efforts of the Catholic Church that you have the Bible today. Unfortunately, it took one rogue priest to ruin it. Fortunately, he wasn’t able to mislead the entire Church. It took another motley crew of wannabe Luthers to completely ruin the essence of orthodox Christianity and form their own scholarly revisionist version of Church history.
Rah, rah, rah. Feel better now?
I asked for a sincere opinion. This thread could work both ways.
No, you didn’t, you baited a trap.
It could work for Protestants like yourself or against Protestants. It all depends on how you want it to go. I went to numerous Protestant churches on my journey Home. I also spent 12 years studying in a Presbyterian missionary school as a student, took Bible Studies as a subject in school (and aced it) and was heavily involved in the Boys Brigade, although i was not yet a Christian back then. How much do you know about your own faith? Are you going to give me adult orientated opinions on the thread subject or are you going to continue whining? By the way, i have noticed most Protestants call threads that question their theology ‘asinine’. What’s new?
I call it asinine because Protestantism could not be further from Islam and because if you have all this Protestant history you should know it.

Protestantism rests upon the idea of grace as unmerited and unmeritable favor that is completely alien to Islam. Islam has no such idea in it.

Some Protestants approach their sacred texts in a manner similar to that of some Muslims, but in their apprehension of how one obtains the favor of God, Muslims and Catholics are far more uniformly in the same boat.
 
I think that you will find most Christians on here have little desire to learn from Islam. It might be the case that a few do but this would be an odd venue to do so. I would imagine an Islamic forum would have more of that activity.
I will not call the premise asinine…but very odd perhaps. Are you interested in Christian/Islam ecumenical activities? I have not read you very much but what I recall is more contrary to their teachings I thought…:confused:
Hi Brian, yes i do wish there could be more ecumenical activities between the two religions. Ecumenism does not mean embracing each other’s religion, but having civil discussions even if we do not agree with one another. Ecumenism leads to positive attitudes and better respect for each other’s faith. We already have so much hatred going on and we must try not to add more salt to the open wound. I am trying to be as realistic as possible and also better myself as i do admit i am no saint. Sometimes tempers may flare but we are emotional creatures.

Do you think Protestantism has somehow been influenced by Islam? The Reformation aside, modern Protestantism (post Luther’s era onwards) theology seems to have been derived from Islamic thinking and writers. Zwingli, Karlstadt and Calvin and many other Reformers had strikingly similar thoughts they shared with Islam. One such example was iconoclasm. It was said during the 8th and 9th centuries, Byzantine was also plagued by iconoclasm due to influences from Islamic thought. Before the Reformation, sola scriptura was an alien concept, but Christian Europe was also aware of the ‘new religion’ of Islam and the Qu’ran. From the 16th century onwards, all sorts of forgeries crept in and one such forgery was the Gospel of Barnabas. I suspect many Protestant reformers could have borrowed the Qu’ran’s theological view and such forgeries (although not known to them as forgeries at that time) to build and defend sola scriptura and sola fide for example. Your thoughts?
 
I wasn’t the one relating the Catholic priesthood to the Aaronic, you were. If they were similar, my point is that one would expect to see this. Since they are not, we don’t.

Again, you’re the one equating the Catholic priesthood with the Aaronic. If they really are similar, one might expect to find this feature in the Catholic priesthood. We don’t because they aren’t similar beyond a generic idea of priesthood which the RCC shares with any number of religious orderings.

You seem to be missing my point again. I know very well that Catholic priests do not marry and have children. My point is that Jewish priests did and if the Catholic priesthood really has so much in common with them one might expect to see this too among Catholic priests.

The reason we don’t is because, again, there is no particular similarity.

The Borgias who bought the papacy. It is also commonly known that the papacy was, during the renaissance, a prize over which the great families of Italy fought both clandestine and overt battles.

The sale of episcopal sees generally was a growth industry during the same period.

You can’t be this obtuse.

I didn’t say that. What I said what that there are features common to the idea of a priest which Catholicism shares with all religions having priests. I chose the example of pagans because it would be every bit as stark as your effort to relate Islam and Protestantism with the added bonus of being grounded in reality.

Rah, rah, rah. Feel better now?

No, you didn’t, you baited a trap.

I call it asinine because Protestantism could not be further from Islam and because if you have all this Protestant history you should know it.

Protestantism rests upon the idea of grace as unmerited and unmeritable favor that is completely alien to Islam. Islam has no such idea in it.

Some Protestants approach their sacred texts in a manner similar to that of some Muslims, but in their apprehension of how one obtains the favor of God, Muslims and Catholics are far more uniformly in the same boat.
Oh child, give it a rest. First of all, Catholic priests are allowed to marry. It is a discipline in the Latin Church to remain celibate. Othwerwise, the Eastern Catholic churches have married priests.

I have neither the interest nor the time to argue with you at this point. But i may when you have cooled down and when you actually take a real interest in this thread.
 
Do you think Protestantism has somehow been influenced by Islam? The Reformation aside, modern Protestantism (post Luther’s era onwards) theology seems to have been derived from Islamic thinking and writers. Zwingli, Karlstadt and Calvin and many other Reformers had strikingly similar thoughts they shared with Islam. One such example was iconoclasm. It was said during the 8th and 9th centuries, Byzantine was also plagued by iconoclasm due to influences from Islamic thought. Before the Reformation, sola scriptura was an alien concept, but Christian Europe was also aware of the ‘new religion’ of Islam and the Qu’ran. From the 16th century onwards, all sorts of forgeries crept in and one such forgery was the Gospel of Barnabas. I suspect many Protestant reformers could have borrowed the Qu’ran’s theological view and such forgeries (although not known to them as forgeries at that time) to build and defend sola scriptura and sola fide for example. Your thoughts?
As you are probably aware, the Ante-Nicene Fathers were opposed to the use of image. Eusebius, one of the most most prolific historians, recounts a story of a bishop who destroyed a curtain over such an incident. So that is the result of the aversion to Paganism, not a synthesis of Islam and Christianity.
Having read most of these early reformers in school, I never detected this. Take for example Menno Simons, I read all of his works for a class once and certainly I did not see anything resembling that. I have also not read any historians that make this assertion either.
I do not see theological similiarities between the two but that would primarily be the result of comparing to unlike systems.
It is not accurate that it was foreign. Paulicians and Waldensians are two groups that had what could be termed mostly Sola Scriptura; although historians debate to what degree.
 
Its the approach they take that i find similar.
*And it is the **approach *that causes so much division, turmoil, and untruth in their different groups.

The prospect of modifying Islam’s doctrine regarding violence is problematic. Although some Muslims in history have tried to “spiritualize” the Quran’s declarations regarding violence, there is always
* a countervailing fundamentalist push** to return to the sources of Islam and take them literally. *

*Indeed, this reaction is what characterizes the **Wahhabite *movement that dominates Saudia Arabia and inspired Osama bin Laden’s ideology. Philosopher Roger Scruton notes that in the Wahhabite view, "whoever can read the Quran can judge for himself in matters of doctrine."

*This attitude, which is tantamount to an Islamic version of sola scriptura, is likely to prove as durable in Muslim circles as it has been in Protestant Fundamentalist circles. As long as that is the case, there will be fresh waves of Muslim “martyrs” willing to take the Quran’s statements on killing literally, apply them to today, and then hurl themselves into combat with whomever **they *perceive as "the Great Satan."
catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp
.

For the protestant fundamentalist this is the Great Whore of
Babylon.

*The fact that the Catholic Church is singled out by Fundamentalists as the Whore reveals that they intuit the fact it has an important role in God’s plan. No other church gets accused of being the Whore - only the Catholic Church. And it is understandable why: The Catholic Church is the **largest **Christian body, **larger than all other Christian bodies **put **together, **suggesting a prominent place in God’s plan. Fundamentalists assume, without objectively looking at the evidence, that the Catholic Church cannot be the Bride of Christ, so it must be the Whore of Babylon. *

*Yet the evidence for its true role is plain. The First Vatican Council taught that "the Church itself . . . because of its marvelous propagation, its exceptional holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in all good works; because of its Catholic unity and invincible stability, is a very great and perpetual motive of credibility and **an incontestable witness **of **its own divine mission" **(On the Catholic Faith 3). *

So why is the Bride maligned as the Whore? Jesus himself answered the question:* "If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul**, how much more will they malign those of his household" (Matt. 10:25). "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world . . . the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you" (John 15:18–20). *
http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp
 
As you are probably aware, the Ante-Nicene Fathers were opposed to the use of image. Eusebius, one of the most most prolific historians, recounts a story of a bishop who destroyed a curtain over such an incident. So that is the result of the aversion to Paganism, not a synthesis of Islam and Christianity.
The Ante-Nicene Fathers were not opposed to divine art nor were they opposed to the use of Christian images but of images that had paganistic leanings. There have been many perversed interpretations of the ANF writings, all meant to do away with the ties the ANF had with the Catholic Church. One famous example is of Episcopalian bishop, Cleveland Coxe:
[
…Coxe took the liberty of adding his own introductions and notes, which were criticised by Roman Catholic reviewers. One approved the faithfulness of the translations, but wrote that Coxe:
](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers)
Having read most of these early reformers in school, I never detected this. Take for example Menno Simons, I read all of his works for a class once and certainly I did not see anything resembling that.
That’s because Anabaptists like Menno Simons took a less radical view than that of Karlstadt, who gloated over the destruction of icons and crucifixes.
It is not accurate that it was foreign. Paulicians and Waldensians are two groups that had what could be termed mostly Sola Scriptura; although historians debate to what degree.
The Paulicians perhaps, but Islam was already around when they flourished and so did the Waldensians considering they existed around the Middle Ages. So the suspicion remains.
 
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