Protestants and Non-Catholics same Body of Christ?

[RaiseMeUp]

I have a question about Catholic & Non-Catholic relationships. Im a Catholic. I have a very close friend that consider himself a Non-Denominational Christian. He does not identify as a Catholic or agree with so ideas of the Catholic Church. However, I being a close friend with him know for sure that he has a relationship with Christ, loves Christ, has been baptized and is truly sincere. We got into heated debate when he asked if I thought that the Protestants or Non-Denominational Christians were all part of the Body of Christ and if we were brothers in Christ… And my answer really hurt him and made me feel bad and honeslty I’m really not sure. I said there is ONE Church - One Body… and the denominations a are… well… denominations and therefore not part of the Body as Christ intended… And he started questioning his salvation and was very offended… So are we all of the same Body of Christ if some are Non-Catholic Christians? Im confused… and being in a Protestant Community here, I have been subject to ridicule by some… But I stand firm in my Catholic faith, Can anyone help with this question? Are we brothers in Christ??

 

[zz912]

We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and they are imperfectly joined to the Body of Christ, the Church.

And you must, with charity, proclaim the truth. Especially when someone asks you. He may be upset with the answer, but he needs to know it. If he has concerns about his salvation, then he needs to look, study, and examine to find the ONE Church that Christ established. And to reflect on the teaching in the Bible that there is ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE Church.

 

[MichaelHowling]

A proper baptism brings all formally into the body of Christ…the Catholic church (there is only one body and we are all a part of it…the degree to which we practice it differs).

Your friend is a part of the body of Christ through baptism…the degree to which he practices this may be in question because he is non-denominational …not following the established and normal means of salvation found in the Catholic church that Christ Himself established.

God wills all men to be saved, Christ is the way to salvation and the Catholic Church is His body…It’s God’s will that all men be saved wishes the best for your friend (heaven) more than your friend even wishes it. God meets EVERYONE where they are if they are following their conscience, truth as they know it as it has been revealed to them in their state in life. We as Catholics are bound by the sacraments …but your friend IF IT BE NOT FAULT OF HIS OWN …does not acknowledge the sacraments/church…God will work with Him where he is and can become a saint so long as your friend does not purposely pose God an obstacle…if your friend finds something in the catholic church to look into …He is OBLIGATED to do so…he must follow his conscience and truth to the end.

God bless, keep praying for them and using your friendly position to help form that conscience rightly and to always have an open mind and follow truth.

 

[RaiseMeUp]

So is he not saved or born again as he says he is? He has told me of personal experiences of God and the Spirit working in his life… I try to explain the Catholic church but he comes right back and says that Catholic is a denomination because “its the Catholics that gave the church the Catholic name” and Ive tried and tried nicely to explain the origin of the word catholic and such but it does not penetrate and its starting to put a separation between us which I don’t want to happen because I value his friendship. He feels like I am exlcuding him from the Body - And I told him that I am no one to exclude anyone - he asked what I thought and I told him… but I dont know how to answer his questions without causing more tension…

 

[MichaelHowling]

No one is guaranteed salvation except those in heaven.

We all must participate with Gods’s grace in life and “work out our salvation with fear and trembleing”.

His baptism brought him into the body of Christ and opened up the life of grace within him…the ability to receive grace in this life. But along the earthly road…he is always able to reject salvation. We live in a place of time…where we can change our mind, and fall…(unlike heaven which is eternal).

 

[JonNC]

I have a question about Catholic & Non-Catholic relationships. Im a Catholic. I have a very close friend that consider himself a Non-Denominational Christian. He does not identify as a Catholic or agree with so ideas of the Catholic Church. However, I being a close friend with him know for sure that he has a relationship with Christ, loves Christ, has been baptized and is truly sincere. We got into heated debate when he asked if I thought that the Protestants or Non-Denominational Christians were all part of the Body of Christ and if we were brothers in Christ… And my answer really hurt him and made me feel bad and honeslty I’m really not sure. I said there is ONE Church - One Body… and the denominations a are… well… denominations and therefore not part of the Body as Christ intended… And he started questioning his salvation and was very offended… So are we all of the same Body of Christ if some are Non-Catholic Christians? Im confused… and being in a Protestant Community here, I have been subject to ridicule by some… But I stand firm in my Catholic faith, Can anyone help with this question? Are we brothers in Christ??
Edit/Delete Message

If you go to your own catechism, paragraph 817 and forward, you will find what the CC teaches.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.#817

.817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

Jon

 

[Della]

So is he not saved or born again as he says he is? He has told me of personal experiences of God and the Spirit working in his life… I try to explain the Catholic church but he comes right back and says that Catholic is a denomination because “its the Catholics that gave the church the Catholic name” and Ive tried and tried nicely to explain the origin of the word catholic and such but it does not penetrate and its starting to put a separation between us which I don’t want to happen because I value his friendship. He feels like I am exlcuding him from the Body - And I told him that I am no one to exclude anyone - he asked what I thought and I told him… but I dont know how to answer his questions without causing more tension…

The terms “saved” and “born again” are his way of saying that he has had a conversion experience that drew him closer to God. The Church calls such experiences “awakening to faith.” All baptized people have been “born again.” That’s what Jesus was talking about when he said we must be born of water and the spirit. He doesn’t see it that way because his particular ecclesial body doesn’t interpret John 3 the same as the Church does.

It’s funny he says the Church invented the word catholic to call itself that. It’s a word taken from the Nicene Creed, which is a 4th century document. The Church also calls itself “one,” “holy,” and apostolic" because it is all four things. The word catholic merely means “universal” and since the Church is universal, it is catholic.

You two are talking past one another because you are using terms that each of you defines in a different way. But be assured, your friend is a Christian. He does not have the fullness of the truth, and has a lot of misconceptions about Catholic truth and practices, but he is still a Christian, just the same. You may wish to invite him to read this thread so he can read for himself what you are trying to say.

 

[RaiseMeUp]

Thank you… Yes what is hard is that Im in a predominantly Protestant community… And i notice the other people who identify as Catholic wont admit to it - There was someone who denied being Catholic and until I said I was openly Catholic then he later said he considered himself Catholic, and I dont want to stereotype all Protestants because I know many that are amazingly good people who fear God and try to follow Christ - But I find I cant even be to open about my faith because right away I am accused of Idolatry and “man made” rituals, and i was even accused of blasphemy because i was defending what they call the Apocrypha - being that my Bible has all 73 books in it. Its just funny because they claim to be Christians but they are quick to throw daggers when it come to Catholicism… .

 

[bsroufek]

This may not be doctrine, but I think there are two levels of faith. The first level is in Christ Himself and the second level is in His Church.

Jesus in the Gospel talks about “other sheep” who do not belong to “this fold”. He says that He must lead them too.

 

[Della]

It sounds like you live in a hotbed of Protestant Fundamentalists who hold to sola scriptura, KJV, Jewish canon OT, along with sola fide and “once saved, always saved” tenets. Am I right? It’s funny because in the name of Christ they worship a book, a truncated version to boot, and then accuse you of idolatry and blasphemy. I don’t mean to offend your friend, but it’s due to ignorance of history, of which they know little to nothing, poor things. All they know is what their pastors tell them and all their pastors know is “what I read in MY Bible” or what they learned at a seminary that doesn’t teach anything about the real early Church, especially the Church Fathers. They are innocent in their arrogance, so you must forgive them for they know not what they do. You are suffering for Christ, just as he said we would. People can suffer at the hands of Protestants as well as Catholics, or others who have agendas or are in ignorance. Know that your faith is more precious than gold or pearls to God. Just be a friend to your friend and be a loving Catholic before him while you pray for him. That is the best thing you can do. You have my prayers.

 

[crumblymunky]

I have similar problems with my brother. I would avoid the asking of “who is in the Body” and show him, rather, that The Church has a long history stretching back to Christ in order to verify its teachings. People won’t be able to comprehend the majesty of the Church until they’re in it.

 

[berryright]

I have a question about Catholic & Non-Catholic relationships. Im a Catholic. I have a very close friend that consider himself a Non-Denominational Christian. He does not identify as a Catholic or agree with so ideas of the Catholic Church. However

We got into heated debate when he asked if I thought that the Protestants or Non-Denominational Christians were all part of the Body of Christ and if we were brothers in Christ.

. I said there is ONE Church - One Body…

(yes saint paul said this – and realize that this is only true if you have been baptised in the Holy Spirit)

and the denominations a are… well… denominations and therefore not part of the Body as Christ intended.

. And he started questioning his salvation and was very offended.

So are we all of the same Body of Christ if some are Non-Catholic Christians? Im confused… and being in a Protestant Community here, I have been subject to ridicule by some…

But I stand firm in my Catholic faith, Can anyone help with this question? Are we brothers in Christ??
Edit/Delete Message

there is a separation between the catholic doctrines and protestant – doctrines–

who has a different gospel ? that is the controversy

Sermon Jam - Catholicism: A Different Gospel (John MacArthur)

youtu.be/4PgaAH87ZxQ

and obviously – if you ask this on this catholic forum-- it is predictable what the answer is

but now it is different according to the Pope, everone that lives a good life is saved

John MacArthur on Catholicism, and Billy Graham

youtu.be/oNq4oZ71Hok

 

[zab]

If he was baptized through water and in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, then he is an adopted Son of God belonging to the family of God, One is only a member of the Body of Christ through the Catholic Church. This is my understanding.

 

[steve_b]

So is he not saved or born again as he says he is? He has told me of personal experiences of God and the Spirit working in his life… I try to explain the Catholic church but he comes right back and says that Catholic is a denomination because “its the Catholics that gave the church the Catholic name” and Ive tried and tried nicely to explain the origin of the word catholic and such but it does not penetrate and its starting to put a separation between us which I don’t want to happen because I value his friendship. He feels like I am exlcuding him from the Body - And I told him that I am no one to exclude anyone - he asked what I thought and I told him… but I dont know how to answer his questions without causing more tension…

Re: Catholic Church, for his own knowledge

· Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all [ἐκκλησία (http://bibleapps.com/greek/1577.htm),[’καθ (http://bibleapps.com/greek/2596.htm),[ὅλης (http://bibleapps.com/greek/3650.htm) ,[τῆς (http://bibleapps.com/greek/3588.htm) ,Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…"

For the translation of those words just click on them.

so iow
[ekklesia….Kata…Holos…the] = the Catholic Church. kata holos is also found in Luke 4:14; Luke 23:5; Acts 9:42; Acts 10:37.

The English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole.

When do we see the name Catholic Church used and who used it?

• St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, from ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church of which schismatics won’t be going to heaven
• St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church”
• Muratorian canon
• Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]
• Cyprian~250 a.d.
• The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
• Augustine ~395 There are many other things that most justly keep me in her * bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.
• etc etc etc

Protestantism as everybody knows, was invented in the 16th century. Schism as your friend will have to concede, is condemned in scripture. And there is no expiration date on that condemnation. Schism is condemned forever.

For the definition of heresy and schism from the CCC [2089 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 2089)*

 

[Bradys_Dad]

…and obviously – if you ask this on this catholic forum-- it is predictable what the answer is but now it is different according to the Pope, everone that lives a good life is saved…

Hopefully you think it is good that you get a predictable answer as it suggests Catholics on this forum are consistent in expressing their faith. You may disagree on aspects of the “Catholic gospel”, so you’ll have to raise those issues so folks can discuss.

Regarding you’re comment on Pope Francis, you’re honestly mistaken in your understanding. Read this: jimmyakin.com/2013/05/did-pope-francis-say-that-atheists-can-get-to-heaven-by-good-works.html

 

[Bradys_Dad]

I have a question about Catholic & Non-Catholic relationships. Im a Catholic. I have a very close friend that consider himself a Non-Denominational Christian. He does not identify as a Catholic or agree with so ideas of the Catholic Church. However, I being a close friend with him know for sure that he has a relationship with Christ, loves Christ, has been baptized and is truly sincere…Are we brothers in Christ??

Absolutely. My best friend is also nondenominational and I’m a better Catholic Christian for knowing him. We constantly pray for one another and are allies in the culture war. We acknowledge our differences and are working through them with patience and love. I pray for him to recognize God’s grace in the sacraments and his Church, but his conversion is not in my hands.

Bottom line, we need Jesus and his Church, both/and. Jesus without his Church or the Church without Jesus is not what he intended. What I have found is that I have a lot in common with my nondenominational friend (and many of my Protestant friends), at times more so than Catholics who have no interest in their faith. Praise God for your friend and I’m sure the Holy Spirit is working through both of you.

 

[steve_b]

Thank you… Yes what is hard is that Im in a predominantly Protestant community… And i notice the other people who identify as Catholic wont admit to it - There was someone who denied being Catholic and until I said I was openly Catholic then he later said he considered himself Catholic, and I dont want to stereotype all Protestants because I know many that are amazingly good people who fear God and try to follow Christ - But I find I cant even be to open about my faith because right away I am accused of Idolatry and “man made” rituals, and i was even accused of blasphemy because i was defending what they call the Apocrypha - being that my Bible has all 73 books in it. Its just funny because they claim to be Christians but they are quick to throw daggers when it come to Catholicism… .

gently remind those folks about thier OWN history. Afterall, Protestantism IS 100% man made. It’s beginning is in the 16th century. That alone tells us Protestantism is NOT what Our Lord established and gave all His promises to… We know where we came from forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10937807&postcount=14

BTW, it sounds like they opened the door for you to address the following. The warnings Paul gave in the 1st century to those who would divide from the Church [Rom 16:17-20, Gal 5:19-21] is the same warning Paul gave in those same scriptures to Luther, and Henry VIII, and Calvin et al, when THEY divided from Our Lord’s Church in the 16th century, as Paul gives your friends the same instruction in the 21st century for being divided from Our Lord’s Church… They need to know, that condemnation of Paul’s, is timeless.

Even though people who are born into these sects over the last 500 years, technically aren’t guilty of actual division / schism as a conscious act, that doesn’t mean they are forever innocent of that. In all charity, once they are educated on the reality of their status, iow once they know the Church Our Lord established is the Catholic Church, and THEY came about through heresy and schism from the Catholic Church, they become guilty of schism from Our Lord’s Church WHEN / IF after coming to the knowledge they don’t return to the Catholic Church and instead remain divided. Neither do they remain forever ignorant in such a situation, nor do they remain forever innocent, who come to that knowledge… Because At the point they know, THAT is the point they become culpable for schism and they need to correct that…

 

[mdcpensive1]

The way I see it is that Crist established a Church and He made it so we can enter into His body, the body of Christ. He has only one body and that Church exists in His body. Anyone who says they have started another church does not make another body of Christ since He has only one of which the Spirit is the soul of the body and Christ the head. A body cannot have two heads. Therefore the “ecclesial communities” or protestant churches are in the body of Christ but not in it’s fullness and do not receive all the graces because they lack most sacraments and priesthood for the offering of the continuing sacrifice.

 

[guanophore]

But I stand firm in my Catholic faith, Can anyone help with this question? Are we brothers in Christ??

Just apologize and tell him you did not express your faith in the best way, then share the teaching of the church as Jon posted above:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

So is he not saved or born again as he says he is? He has told me of personal experiences of God and the Spirit working in his life.

The Apostles taught that we are born from above through water and spirit. If he was validly baptized, the CC considers him thereby born again, and joined to the One Church.

I try to explain the Catholic church but he comes right back and says that Catholic is a denomination because “its the Catholics that gave the church the Catholic name”

It seems to me that this is not a helpful activity. Are you trying to talk him into becoming Catholic? It would probably be better to affirm his discipleship and experience of God.

But, for the record, he is right, Catholics did give the Church the name Catholic. It first appears by the pen of Luke in Acts 9:42, and was in common use by the time the successors of the Apostles wrote 50 years after that.

But to “denominate” means to take one’s name from, and every non Catholic ecclesial community originated with a person who rejected part of the Catholic faith.

and Ive tried and tried nicely to explain the origin of the word catholic and such but it does not penetrate and its starting to put a separation between us which I don't want to happen because I value his friendship.

Then stop?

Why is this so important to you? Can you just accept what the catechism says that the HS is working in his life, and through his ecclesial community? It is time to examine your own NEED to press this issue when it is obviously divisive.

He feels like I am exlcuding him from the Body - And I told him that I am no one to exclude anyone - he asked what I thought and I told him… but I dont know how to answer his questions without causing more tension…

It does seem that your response was exclusionary, and not entirely consistent with the Catechism. What would happen if you prayed together instead? Read the Fathers?

 

[guanophore]

Thank you… Yes what is hard is that Im in a predominantly Protestant community… And i notice the other people who identify as Catholic wont admit to it - There was someone who denied being Catholic and until I said I was openly Catholic then he later said he considered himself Catholic, and I dont want to stereotype all Protestants because I know many that are amazingly good people who fear God and try to follow Christ - But I find I cant even be to open about my faith because right away I am accused of Idolatry and “man made” rituals, and i was even accused of blasphemy because i was defending what they call the Apocrypha - being that my Bible has all 73 books in it. Its just funny because they claim to be Christians but they are quick to throw daggers when it come to Catholicism… .

Seems like the Truth might be better served if you found some common ground. What about the books they do accept?

1 Thess 5:13-14
Be at peace among yourselves.

Rom 12:18
18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.

When they poke at Catholicism, assert something they believe that you do also, like “Jesus is my Lord and Savior”, or another buzzword.

Or affirm the part of the Truth they embrace, like "it is great that you have such a passion for the Word of God’.

Or just “may God bless you also as you follow Him in faith”.

Or, please pray for me, that I may be obedient to all the will of God.