Protestants and non Catholics who do you hold to teach you scripture infallibly?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Like the majority of people I hold the opinion that murder, for example is wrong, but I can’t absolutely prove it. Of course some opinions are mutually exclusive. You can’t very well hold the opinion that the Christian God exists, and simultaneously hold the opinion that murder is perfectly ok. That doesn’t alter the fact, however, that the existence of God is itself an opinion.

Let’s see, we have infallibility, absolute, right, wrong, and now opinion. I cant hold the opinion that God exists, and murder is perfectly ok, and the existence of God is only an opinion?

So I am guessing, your infallibility of truth is only an opinon of yours? You dont know if what you know is without error, only an opinion. So you are free to think, and experiment with morals and faith, because these are of an opinion of God, so your not sure if murder can be right or wrong,only an opinon.

Maybe that is why we are the only species that kill are own children (unborn) and are unable to suffice our desires by believing in our selves and only have an opinon of God.

With out an infallible Truth, man strays and kills man, without God to fill man, man fills himself, by preying on man to fill himself.
God help us.

So who do you hold to teach you anything without error? Can you give an opinion?

 

[mathematician]

Let’s see, we have infallibility, absolute, right, wrong, and now opinion. I cant hold the opinion that God exists, and murder is perfectly ok, and the existence of God is only an opinion?

So I am guessing, your infallibility of truth is only an opinon of yours? You dont know if what you know is without error, only an opinion. So you are free to think, and experiment with morals and faith, because these are of an opinion of God, so your not sure if murder can be right or wrong,only an opinon.

Maybe that is why we are the only species that kill are own children (unborn) and are unable to suffice our desires by believing in our selves and only have an opinon of God.

With out an infallible Truth, man strays and kills man, without God to fill man, man fills himself, by preying on man to fill himself.
God help us.

So who do you hold to teach you anything without error? Can you give an opinion?

How do you know that the Catholic Church is a source of infallible doctrine? Isn’t that an opinion? Like it or not, it is always going to come back to what you, a fallible human being, happen to believe.

 

[MarcoPolo]

While it may not hold true for some here, I think most non-denoms rely on themselves or their pastor.

 

[1234]

Well, certainly not any mortal man who’s alive today…Roanoker

and I would add:

…or who ever lived.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

How do you know that the Catholic Church is a source of infallible doctrine? Isn’t that an opinion? Like it or not, it is always going to come back to what you, a fallible human being, happen to believe.

You are very good at side tracking an issue. I find an opinion is something that doesnt have to be believed, and can change. I find factual evidence, or eyewitnesses describing one event exactly the same, to be no longer an opinon but a reality. Now when it comes to my faith, I no longer have an opinion, my belief is transformed into Truth, which Truth is infallible. I myself being a fallible human recognize the difference between what is temporal and what is eternal. The eternal infallible one has revealed himself to man and history made present in his Catholic church. This is how I know the doctrine of the Catholic church are not temporal they are eternal, because the source from where they derive is eternal.

The difference in believing and knowing comes to an end, When one is willing to die for his belief without resistance as did Jesus, as did his apostles, as did the Catholic saints and Martrys including the first 30? Popes of the Catholic church for knowing their faith to be truth.

Tell me, would you be willing to die for 2+2=4?

This is the difference in temporal life between believing and knowing, fallible and infallible, present and eternal.

 

[mozart-250]

Who or where do you go to get infallable teaching or instruction from sacred scripture?

Just one comment here.

One can trust an authority without beleiving that authority is incapable of being incorrect. It is done in real life.

We trust doctors with our physical lives, not because they are incapable of being incorrect but because they are authoritative in the field of medicine.

I do the same in my Spiritual life.

 

[kalt]

You can’t have an infinite regress, so if you traced your presuppositions back far enough I suppose you would end up in the murky depths of your unconscious mind.

OK, so you appeal to you unconscious mind when you get stuck on a biblical passage. Good. So where did your unconscious mind pick up this information, and how does it know it’s correct?

 

[kalt]

Just one comment here.

One can trust an authority without beleiving that authority is incapable of being incorrect. It is done in real life.

We trust doctors with our physical lives, not because they are incapable of being incorrect but because they are authoritative in the field of medicine.

I do the same in my Spiritual life.

If you believe that the people who teach you can be wrong about doctrines of your faith, are you certain that you have it right, or that you’re even in the right denomination? If you are certain, how do you know that?

 

[mozart-250]

If you believe that the people who teach you can be wrong about doctrines of your faith, are you certain that you have it right, or that you’re even in the right denomination? If you are certain, how do you know that?

I apply the same reasoning to my faith as I do my doctor. My doctor will readily admit that he is not incapable of being incorrect. Yet I trusted my doctor with my life in surgery 2 years ago.

Also the question can be reversed. You believe that your denomination (when teaching ex-cathedra on faith and morals) can not be incorrect (it is impossible). Are you certain that you have this right? If so, how do you know that?

 

[mathematician]

OK, so you appeal to you unconscious mind when you get stuck on a biblical passage. Good. So where did your unconscious mind pick up this information, and how does it know it’s correct?

Your attitudes have their origins in the unconscious mind. Presuppositions are what you get when your conscious mind gets to work and tries to meld those attitudes into your day to day way of looking at the world.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Just one comment here.

One can trust an authority without beleiving that authority is incapable of being incorrect. It is done in real life.

We trust doctors with our physical lives, not because they are incapable of being incorrect but because they are authoritative in the field of medicine.

I do the same in my Spiritual life.

**Very well put, if you need a Doctor? you go see a Doctor, If you need a policeman or fireman you call those you can trust with your life. When you need medicine for the Soul where does one go?

Infallible is not describing a man to be without error, Where and who is your authoritative instruction When it comes to faith and morals? Who and where is it that can translate a scriptural teaching to you that you trust with your soul, to be correct? **

 

[mathematician]

The eternal infallible one has revealed himself to man and history made present in his Catholic church. This is how I know the doctrine of the Catholic church are not temporal they are eternal, because the source from where they derive is eternal.

The Catholic Church is populated by very human and very fallible individuals. To take a teaching from the mouth of a cardinal is not to take it from the mouth of God.

Besides which, if the Church is to authoritavely interpret the Bible who is to judge the Church? The NT cannot very easily stand in judgement of the Church if the Church is allowqed to selectively interpret the evidence at its own trial.

 

[mathematician]

The Catholic Church is populated by very human and very fallible individuals. To take a teaching from the mouth of a cardinal is not to take it from the mouth of God.

Besides which, if the Church is to authoritavely interpret the Bible who is to judge the Church? The NT cannot very easily stand in judgement of the Church if the Church is allowed to selectively interpret the evidence at its own trial.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The Catholic Church is populated by very human and very fallible individuals. To take a teaching from the mouth of a cardinal is not to take it from the mouth of God.

Besides which, if the Church is to authoritavely interpret the Bible who is to judge the Church? The NT cannot very easily stand in judgement of the Church if the Church is allowqed to selectively interpret the evidence at its own trial.

**You know very well a cardinal cannot speak infallibly, he doesnt have to be an ordained priest either. This type of analogy is not being honest, you can easily confuse others if by making these type of claims about the Catholic church, and misrepresent what is being taken up here. Please dont side step the issue at hand.

Do not get confused with what is human teaching and instrruction which is fallible, with divine revelation that is church doctrine.
The difference between teachings and instruction, opinions and disciplines are not equal to doctrine when defined as infallible, without error and Truth

How can one Judge the Church doctrine, your asking how can you judge the teachings of Jesus?. As much as I would love to comment on this, I will leave it up to the Sacred Scriptures to reveal this.

1Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,”
10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God.

11 Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God.

12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God.

13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 7

14 Now the natural person 8 does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.

15 The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone.

16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
**

 

[Contarini]

Sometimes we come across scripture that does not make sense to us, or we need some one to instruct us or translate scripture and define scripture to us.

Who or where do you go to get infallable teaching or instruction from sacred scripture?

Why do we need this? I don’t mean “why would it be nice.” But “what leads us to think that this is an essential, guaranteed part of the Christian faith?”

Edwin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Why do we need this? I don’t mean “why would it be nice.” But “what leads us to think that this is an essential, guaranteed part of the Christian faith?”

Edwin

I believe it is essential to all here to communicate these conflicting opinions of interpretation of scripture and from which they derive their source coupled with the understanding of Infallibility. If one is to trust an interpretation of his or hers scripture teaching. How does one know if their teaching of that scripture is without error? What is faith without Truth? We can better communicate our interpretations of scripture if one knows to what standard we hold them to. Either unchanging, or opinion,and especially how new or old is this interpretation.

The guaranteed part is to Who guarantees your christianity to be infallible.

Maybe this can help us better understand our differences of christian traditions and doctrine, in revealing this to one another can reveal answers to our seperation. I am of the opinon that disciplines, opinons, and traditions that can change and with these acceptable changes can come unity, as one faith, one church, one Lord.

But our misunderstandings of these as doctrine leads one to be misinformed about ones faith. If we can start with authority which I believe is the stumbling block, not Mary, or the Eucharist, or Sola fide. If we can come to respect or acknowledge the authority Jesus Christ and then go from there about our differences.

 

[kalt]

I apply the same reasoning to my faith as I do my doctor. My doctor will readily admit that he is not incapable of being incorrect. Yet I trusted my doctor with my life in surgery 2 years ago.

Also the question can be reversed. You believe that your denomination (when teaching ex-cathedra on faith and morals) can not be incorrect (it is impossible). Are you certain that you have this right? If so, how do you know that?

I know it because I accept the authority of the Church. The Church was founded by Jesus, so I know that it is right.

Again, you know that your doctor could have been wrong all along. You put your trust in him, but you weren’t sure. He could have had the diagnosis wrong. Surgery might not have been the best option. He might have made a mistake in surgery. You made the best guess you could, based on what you know (from your experience, the experiences of those you know, and probably from reading what you could on the condition and the doctor you chose.)

Now about your religion. If you know that all of those things could go wrong with your spiritual leaders opinions, too, how do you know that you have it right?

 

[onmywayagain]

While it may not hold true for some here, I think most non-denoms rely on themselves or their pastor.

The truth is everyone depends on someone. Protestants will contest that when they interpret scripture they are guided by the Holy Spirit and they are correct in their interpretations. Since we Catholics are guided and/or taught by the Church Magisterium (sp), we are guided by men and they are fallible. But way are they fallible if they are guided by the Holy Spirit also? Are protestants the only ones who can be guided by the Holy Spirit?

Don’t turn this into a debate about who is right and who is wrong. This is just the answer that I get when I talk to protestants.

 

[Swan]

Jesus said his church would not err, however, 2,000 year have passed and the original church has been divided many, many times. The assertion that today’s Catholic church is the same church founded by Jesus is simply that, an assertion. Without Jesus here to confirm that this is the case it is simply a claim that can not be substantiated. It is indeed possible that one of the churches that separated from Rome hundreds of years ago is the true chruch. Apostolic succession proves nothing other than a continuing priesthood in the same institution - continued by man, it says nothing about that insitution’s continued teaching of, or possession of, truth. Further, anyone can claim to be infallible when it comes to issues such as religion since there is no “proof” that can be offerred other than opinion. To state that one is infallible is, indeed, a perfect way to stifle inquiry and discussion. The church is the body of Christ, made up of all believers and God works within us all.

 

[mathematician]

Jesus said his church would not err, however, 2,000 year have passed and the original church has been divided many, many times. The assertion that today’s Catholic church is the same church founded by Jesus is simply that, an assertion. Without Jesus here to confirm that this is the case it is simply a claim that can not be substantiated. It is indeed possible that one of the churches that separated from Rome hundreds of years ago is the true chruch. Apostolic succession proves nothing other than a continuing priesthood in the same institution - continued by man, it says nothing about that insitution’s continued teaching of, or possession of, truth. Further, anyone can claim to be infallible when it comes to issues such as religion since there is no “proof” that can be offerred other than opinion. To state that one is infallible is, indeed, a perfect way to stifle inquiry and discussion. The church is the body of Christ, made up of all believers and God works within us all.

Hear, hear.