Protestants and the Bible?

[commenter]

I disagree. If I am a member of the ELCA, and I disagree with ELCA doctrine, that is no different than a Catholic disagreeing with Catholic doctrine. Now, how they handle it may be different, but it is the same.
Jon

ELCA doctrine? There didn’t use to be any such thing as ELCA doctrine, (or LCMS doctrine, etc). There was just Lutheran doctrine.

I’ve known LOTS of Catholics who were not in communion with the (singular) Magisterium’s doctrine. Those people might make my life miserable, but I could always figure out what was the Magisterium’s doctrine. I may or may not choose to follow it, but I could always identify it - singular pronoun.

 

[Duane1966]

Well, I’d have to ask if you see all Catholics prior to Trent similarly?

It doesn’t matter how they viewed it before Trent. Some Catholics before Trent may have thought the epistles of Paul were not inspired. Who cares what some Catholics outside the Magisterium think? Thousands of Catholics think abortion is great. No one would ever say that the teaching of the Church is not clear on abortion. In a similar way, the teaching of the Church had already been clear on what books were considered inspired, long before Trent. The fact of the matter is, the council of Florence listed the 73 books as canonical and inspired, and attached an anathema to it. That council was accepted and binding on the West, which your thousands of Catholics were a part of. The council of Trent merely closed the canon. Any Catholic who did not believe at the time that they were inspired, most likely knew that the Church had decreed them as inspired. Your thousands of Catholics knew their way of thinking was heterodox.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Hi JB,

You brought up the Lord’s Word on the matter. Apparently it is quite a serious matter to get this right.

Blessings

What is more important: doing the will of God or peforming miracles which are not always aligned to the will of God?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

For the Lutheran, belief in the PV is adiaphoron.

Jon

Many Lutherans don’t profess it.

 

[rcwitness]

Many Lutherans don’t profess it.

That would make sense, since Jon said it is adiaphoron.

I believe the fact that the Church officially declared it to be an Apostolic Truth, is the central reason why it should not be doubted and taught otherwise.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

That would make sense, since Jon said it is adiaphoron.

I believe the fact that the Church officially declared it to be an Apostolic Truth, is the central reason why it should not be doubted and taught otherwise.

See this is the thing I was talking about, you can deny certain elements of doctrine and still be a good Lutheran. It’s not binding. However Catholic doctrine like the PV is binding, so yes what I say is the truth.

 

[alwayswill]

See this is the thing I was talking about, you can deny certain elements of doctrine and still be a good Lutheran. It’s not binding. However Catholic doctrine like the PV is binding, so yes what I say is the truth.

JBB stated
" you can deny certain elements of doctrine and still be a** good** Lutheran."

Yet we see
cbsnews.com/news/us-catholics-want-a-younger-more-liberal-pope/

"Catholics don’t think it is necessary to agree with the pope on issues like abortion and birth control in order to be a faithful member of the church.

Eighty-three percent of Catholics said they think it’s possible to disagree with the pope on issues like these and still be a good Catholic,
**
and 78 percent of American Catholics are more likely to follow their own consciences rather than the pope’s teachings (13 percent) on difficult moral issues. "**
following on JonNC’s point

I disagree. If I am a member of the ELCA, and I disagree with ELCA doctrine, that is no different than a Catholic disagreeing with Catholic doctrine. Now, how they handle it may be different, but it is the same.
Jon

I ask:

If you know what the Catholic Church teaches
and someone tells you they are a GOOD and **FAITHFUL **Catholic,
will you know what they believe?

 

[rcwitness]

JBB stated
" you can deny certain elements of doctrine and still be a** good** Lutheran."

Yet we see
cbsnews.com/news/us-catholics-want-a-younger-more-liberal-pope/

"Catholics don’t think it is necessary to agree with the pope on issues like abortion and birth control in order to be a faithful member of the church.

Eighty-three percent of Catholics said they think it’s possible to disagree with the pope on issues like these and still be a good Catholic,
**
and 78 percent of American Catholics are more likely to follow their own consciences rather than the pope’s teachings (13 percent) on difficult moral issues. "**
following on JonNC’s point

I ask:

If you know what the Catholic Church teaches
and someone tells you they are a GOOD and **FAITHFUL **Catholic,
will you know what they believe?

You and your polls are gonna drive me crazy!

 

[Tomdstone]

"Catholics don’t think it is necessary to agree with the pope on issues like abortion and birth control in order to be a faithful member of the church.

Eighty-three percent of Catholics said they think it’s possible to disagree with the pope on issues like these and still be a good Catholic,

---

It doesn’t seem too much different from what many Protestants believe.

 

[alwayswill]

You and your polls are gonna drive me crazy!

as I have said:
If you want to know what people believe: ask them.

 

[alwayswill]

It doesn’t seem too much different from what many Protestants believe.

sadly that is true

 

[JonNC]

See this is the thing I was talking about, you can deny certain elements of doctrine and still be a good Lutheran. It’s not binding. However Catholic doctrine like the PV is binding, so yes what I say is the truth.

JB, belief in th PV is adiaphoron, which means it is not doctrine. Adiaphoron means a thing indifferent. You, as a Catholic, and me, as a member of the APA, believe in the PV. I believed the PV as a Lutheran because the universal Church east and west, including virtually all of orthodox Lutheranism believes it.
But a Lutheran who does not believe it is not denying doctrine.

Jon

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

JB, belief in th PV is adiaphoron, which means it is not doctrine. Adiaphoron means a thing indifferent. You, as a Catholic, and me, as a member of the APA, believe in the PV. I believed the PV as a Lutheran because the universal Church east and west, including virtually all of orthodox Lutheranism believes it.
But a Lutheran who does not believe it is not denying doctrine.

Jon

Yep, doctrine that is not binding.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

JBB stated
" you can deny certain elements of doctrine and still be a** good** Lutheran."

Yet we see
cbsnews.com/news/us-catholics-want-a-younger-more-liberal-pope/

"Catholics don’t think it is necessary to agree with the pope on issues like abortion and birth control in order to be a faithful member of the church.

Eighty-three percent of Catholics said they think it’s possible to disagree with the pope on issues like these and still be a good Catholic,
**
and 78 percent of American Catholics are more likely to follow their own consciences rather than the pope’s teachings (13 percent) on difficult moral issues. "**
following on JonNC’s point

I ask:

If you know what the Catholic Church teaches
and someone tells you they are a GOOD and **FAITHFUL **Catholic,
will you know what they believe?

What about in the world?

 

[rcwitness]

as I have said:
If you want to know what people believe: ask them.

Sure. Who is wanting to know what certain fallible polls say?

 

[alwayswill]

Sure. Who is wanting to know what certain fallible polls say?

Polls have a purpose:
even the Vatican initiates polls.

“The German and Swiss Catholic bishops have issued the results from their countries of **a survey initiated by the Vatican **in October asking what Catholics believe and adhere to when it comes to Church teachings on sex and the family.”
lifesitenews.com/opinion/europes-bishops-discover-what-we-all-knew-most-catholics-reject-teaching-on

Quoting Michael Voris comments on the above poll.

“Now we’ve got real data, that no one in the Church can refute, that we can use to pound the point home.
…these are the Vatican’s own official numbers and they show results even worse than originally thought”

Catholics can no longer blame Gallup, or Pew,
the blame is on the Bishops, and priests.
“The response showing the nearly universal rejection of Catholic moral teaching by Mass-going Catholics, including some priests, bishops and even cardinals, are surprising to no one with the least acquaintance with contemporary Catholicism.”

 

[Faith1960]

Why do you think there are over 30,000 different denominations?

I think that’s a myth.

 

[rcwitness]

Polls have a purpose:
even the Vatican initiates polls.

“The German and Swiss Catholic bishops have issued the results from their countries of **a survey initiated by the Vatican **in October asking what Catholics believe and adhere to when it comes to Church teachings on sex and the family.”
lifesitenews.com/opinion/europes-bishops-discover-what-we-all-knew-most-catholics-reject-teaching-on

Quoting Michael Voris comments on the above poll.

“Now we’ve got real data, that no one in the Church can refute, that we can use to pound the point home.
…these are the Vatican’s own official numbers and they show results even worse than originally thought”

Catholics can no longer blame Gallup, or Pew,
the blame is on the Bishops, and priests.
“The response showing the nearly universal rejection of Catholic moral teaching by Mass-going Catholics, including some priests, bishops and even cardinals, are surprising to no one with the least acquaintance with contemporary Catholicism.”

The Vatican is interested in what her members believe and accept of the faith. It is important to know this. And I don’t doubt that many members do not accept Magisterial Teaching as from above.

The fact is, is that this is nothing new. The only time that most all believers accepted all the Teachings of the Church was when the Apostles were performing great miracles.

You seem to be attempting to use what some Catholic members are accepting, despite the Church Teachings, to represent the spiritual state of the Catholic faith.

You ask:

If you know what the Catholic Church teaches
and someone tells you they are a GOOD and FAITHFUL Catholic,
will you know what they believe?

What does that question even mean??? Who cares what someone tells you? It doesn’t mean it’s the truth. And if it is true, and they are a good and faithful Catholic, then they would believe what the Church Teaches in the Catechism! If they hold beliefs which are opposed to the Catechism, them they are dissenting over those issues which they are opposing.

The better question is: What do you do when you know a Catholic member is denying Teachings of the Catholic faith?

 

[commenter]

Polls have a purpose:
even the Vatican initiates polls.

Hot news flash:
Western Europe, the US, and British Empire countries are moving away from Christianity.
We know that.
It’s a long term trend for at least 3 centuries. It has intensified in the last 50 years.
True, many Catholics, outside African and Asia, are moving away from the Magisterium, the Bible, and Tradition, because they are influenced by an increasingly powerful secular media culture. It is also true many Protestants are (implicitly) moving away from the Magisterium, and explicitly away from Scripture and Tradition.
None of this disproves the trustworthiness of the Magisterium, Scripture, or Tradition.
There were people who walked away from Christ during his teaching. That did not refute His teaching.
The Magisterium is reliable, regardless of whether 99% of Catholics follow it, or 1%. Same is true for Scripture and Tradition. Their reliability does not depend on how many rely on it. In 2014, perhaps more Americans relied on the Kardashians for guidance, than on the Gospel of Mathew.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Vatican is interested in what her members believe and accept of the faith. It is important to know this. And I don’t doubt that many members do not accept Magisterial Teaching as from above.

The fact is, is that this is nothing new. The only time that most all believers accepted all the Teachings of the Church was when the Apostles were performing great miracles.

You seem to be attempting to use what some Catholic members are accepting, despite the Church Teachings, to represent the spiritual state of the Catholic faith.

You ask:

If you know what the Catholic Church teaches
and someone tells you they are a GOOD and FAITHFUL Catholic,
will you know what they believe?

What does that question even mean??? Who cares what someone tells you? It doesn’t mean it’s the truth. And if it is true, and they are a good and faithful Catholic, then they would believe what the Church Teaches in the Catechism! If they hold beliefs which are opposed to the Catechism, them they are dissenting over those issues which they are opposing.

Well said.