Protestants and the Bible?

[steido01]

I never said Tomdstone did but it is a common objection or rebuttal re the topic.

Hmm. I’ll have to beg your patience then. I read your post as an accusation, so I didn’t understand the relevance of it to the thread. Still don’t. Not a single “Protestant” here brought up pre-Reformation schisms until you mentioned it. Perhaps all the “Protestants” participating here are a-typical?

 

[pablope]

I don’t believe that there are over 30,000 Christian denominations.
Give us the list and the names of each separate denomination.

I would suggest that you start counting the various non-denoms…starting with a street corner, and go about two blocks…

On where I work, I could about 50 different denoms two blocks, from baptist to non-denom…

 

[pablope]

Your pretty accurate source says that there are about 242 different. Roman Catholic denominations.
My personal opinion is that there is one Catholic Church and that the Catholic Church is one denomination, not 242 different denominations.
What is your definition of a denomination and why do you give us a pretty accurate source that says that the Catholic Church consists of 242 different denominations?

And if you look at the study…the independents alone number 22,000…at the time of the study years ago…Independents (about 22,000 denominations)

Let’s deal with these first, since this is the largest mega-bloc (22000+ “denominations” of the total 33000+). These are broken down into various large groups, and their lists and numbers span from the bottom of page 16, through page 17, and most of page 18. I’m not going to type all of these since the list is quite long – much longer than any of the groupings in the other mega-blocs which are listed below in full. I will quote a major sampling of these “Independent” Christian groups, and still try to cover the whole list:

 

[pablope]

On the contrary to the contrary, there are different denominations who hold full pulpit-altar fellowship, yet they are still counted as separate “denominations” by this silly (yet elusive) list of “33,000.”

Take the LCMS and the LCC (and most members of the ILC). Or the WELS and the ELS (and all members of the CLC). Or the ELCA and all the members of the LWF. Just because a group maintains legally separate leadership doesn’t mean its a separate denomination.

Another example is that all the ‘Liberal Protestant’ bodies are in total fellowship with each other: ELCA, PCUSA, RCA, UCC, TEC, UMC, the Moravian Church, etc. Are they really separate denominations if they all [dis]believe the same things and share the same teachers? Not really. They’re one denomination.

But there is one trait shared by all these…their animosity and hatred, one way or another, towards bishop of Rome…and some even confess him to be the anti-Christ.

 

[pablope]

To be more fair, this was common practice for Catholic theologians (of whom Luther was one) prior to Trent. Even some of Luther’s harshest Catholic critics agreed with him on the elevation of certain books of Scripture over others (Gospels take precedence over Epistles, Epistles over the anitlegomena, etc.) Heck, even the Catholic Church today refers to the questionable books as ‘Deuterocanon,’ meaning “second[ary] rule.”

But the difference ends there…Catholics scholars deemed these as sacred and inspired, with no distinction to the rest of the canon.

By the way, what kind of canon do you use in your branch of Lutherans? It would be interesting to find out.

Scripture has always been a historical question, not a theological one. Why is it strange that academics in the church should come to similar conclusions as the early fathers?

 

[pablope]

I don’t believe there are 30,000 either.

This sounds like a more believable number. Of course this doesn’t capture the independent non-denominational churches that are probably factored into the higher numbers. I don’t know if there are 29,210 of these churches…

If you indeed count the independents and non-denoms…then you it would be over 30,000 now since the count was done.

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

Independents (about 22,000 denominations)

Let’s deal with these first, since this is the largest mega-bloc (22000+ “denominations” of the total 33000+). These are broken down into various large groups, and their lists and numbers span from the bottom of page 16, through page 17, and most of page 18. I’m not going to type all of these since the list is quite long – much longer than any of the groupings in the other mega-blocs which are listed below in full. I will quote a major sampling of these “Independent” Christian groups, and still try to cover the whole list:

While the World Christian Encyclopedia does refer to “only” 9000 or so denominations as “Protestant” the source also includes 22,000 or so denominations as “Independent” and if you look at the names of these “Independent” groups above, you’ll see most of them are clearly Protestant (the “Apostolic”, the “Charismatic”, the “Full Gospel”, the house or home churches, the pentecostals, probably all the TV/radio Christians, and all the independents of other Protestant denominations listed, etc). None of these are Catholic or Orthodox, but there appear to be some renegade Orthodox, Anglicans, and schismatic Catholics among the “Independents.” The largest of these Independent Christians are “White-led charismatic” (17,478,000 members [year 1995], in 2856 separate denominations [year 2000]), “African independent pentecostal” (18,943,000 members [year 1995], in 5385 separate denominations [year 2000]), and “African neocharismatic of mixed traditions” (1,500,000 members [year 1995], in 3333 separate denominations [year 2000]). These three are all Protestant (neither Catholic, nor Orthodox) and account for more than half (53%) of the 22,000 “Independent” denominations.

Another section of these “Independents” with a decent number of denominations include (ordered by smallest to largest denominations, year 2000):

 

[steido01]

But there is one trait shared by all these…their animosity and hatred, one way or another, towards bishop of Rome…and some even confess him to be the anti-Christ.

Hatred? Animosity? No, pablope. Just because they disagree with another group doesn’t mean they “hate” them. Am I to believe Catholics “hate” gays or the divorced?

And as for the anti-Christ charge, friend, you’ve been here long enough to know that the Lutheran charges are conditional and -while still serious- do not mean what is popularly associated with that term. But this doesn’t need to be brought up in yet another thread…

But the difference ends there…Catholics scholars deemed these as sacred and inspired, with no distinction to the rest of the canon.

Those Catholic scholars who came after Trent, maybe. But not the many thousands who came before. And I’m not sure it’s correct to say that the Catholic Church accepts all the books of her canon without any distinction. Surely, the use of the term “Deuterocanon” alone acknowledges that a distinction is still made, though perhaps not as stark as the one drawn in Lutheranism?

By the way, what kind of canon do you use in your branch of Lutherans? It would be interesting to find out.

The same that was used by the Catholic Church before Trent. That is, a canon that is determined by the historic witness of the church and her scholarly traditions. That’s why the Lutheran Confessions don’t name a book of contents just so we can anathematize anyone who disagrees. Some Lutherans use a 73 or 74-book bible, some use a 66-book bible. All do so with the understanding that certain books (the Gospels, for instance) hold more authority than others with regard to doctrine, and all use those books accordingly - even if they aren’t read from during the yearly lectionary. In this way, Confessional Lutherans hold the same beliefs regardless of whether a bible is 73 books or 66. Nothing in those 7 books could change the meaning of the more authoratative books; only support and enhance them. So we don’t care about numbering or the order of the books.

Many Anglicans hold similar views. Other “Protestants,” however, may not be such close students of history.

 

[Padres1969]

I would suggest that you start counting the various non-denoms…starting with a street corner, and go about two blocks…

On where I work, I could about 50 different denoms two blocks, from baptist to non-denom…

Just a point of order… how can there be 33,000 denominations, counting non-denominational churches, when they are by definition non-denominational… meaning they’re not a denomination?

 

[thephilosopher6]

Because while we share fellowship and a general understanding of major doctrinal issues, there are still minor differences in liturgy and the like that we prefer to maintain for now. But you’re right, there may be a merger of two or more of these bodies in the future as they work out the more minor differences as well.

I think there is going to be a merger between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church in America in a few years. The Episcopal Church got suspended for three years by the larger Anglican Communion for allowing gay marriage. If the Episcopal Church does not change its policy in the next three years you guys have the risk of being kicked out of the communion. The ELCA and the Episcopal Church already seem indistinguishable with everything that is going on within them that I see the two merging in the future. You guys are already in communion with each other in that you recognize each others sacraments and even allow one another to partake in them.

 

[Churchman25]

Does this answer your question

There is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations. Based on the encyclopedia’s own definition of “denomination” the editors appear to be separating and counting by country which is how you get to 242."

 

[Padres1969]

I think there is going to be a merger between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church in America in a few years. The Episcopal Church got suspended for three years by the larger Anglican Communion for allowing gay marriage. If the Episcopal Church does not change its policy in the next three years you guys have the risk of being kicked out of the communion. The ELCA and the Episcopal Church already seem indistinguishable with everything that is going on within them that I see the two merging in the future. You guys are already in communion with each other in that you recognize each others sacraments and even allow one another to partake in them.

That’s actually not the case at all. I’d read up on it more. But suffice it to say the “suspension” is only from a couple of consultative bodies, nothing more. And that has no bearing on the ECUSA’s standing in the communion as a whole as the decision was not rendered by a body with any authority to suspend the ECUSA’s membership in the Anglican communion.

As for the ECUSA and ELCA being “indistinguishable” I suggest more research as both are quite different liturgically, theologically, etc… even if we are in communion with each other.

 

[MaryT777]

That’s actually not the case at all. I’d read up on it more. But suffice it to say the “suspension” is only from a couple of consultative bodies, nothing more. And that has no bearing on the ECUSA’s standing in the communion as a whole as the decision was not rendered by a body with any authority to suspend the ECUSA’s membership in the Anglican communion.

As for the ECUSA and ELCA being “indistinguishable” I suggest more research as both are quite different liturgically, theologically, etc… even if we are in communion with each other.

I appreciate all the (name removed by moderator)ut on this thread from non Catholic participants.

What is curious to me as a Catholic is this:

Is there a minimum requirement to be in communion with each other despite the difference, in liturgical practices theology,etc as you note?

I guess what I am asking is what is the common denominator between the communions ELCA and ECUSA,

Blessings

Mary.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Isn’t free interpretation of Sacred Scripture without consulting proper ecclesiastical authority one of the first errors of the protestant “reformers”? It seems as though they supported all kinds of anarchy of that sort.

That’s an extremely simplistic view of the Reformation.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Why do you think there are over 30,000 different denominations?

They’re aren’t, and Catholics look really stupid saying there are.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

In one of the very few cases where I will come to poor Martin’s defense, he did not cut or otherwise excise any books from the bible, regardless of his opinion of them. What he did was segregate them, by his own assumed authority, to their own section within the bible that bore his name. He felt they were edifying reading, but doubted their canonicity. A kind of theological apartheid.

Interestingly, protestant groups to this day will endlessly cite Saint Jerome, who also had doubts about the canonicity of the Deuterocanonical books - while staunchly disagreeing with Jerome on everything else. Cherry-picking, indeed!

It is believed that Philipp Melanchthon (Martin’s “lieutenant”) convinced him not to remove the books - for which Martin displayed a rather infamous disdain. In fact, Melanchthon went so far as to research and write an apologia reconciling the Letter of James with the writings of Saint Paul. Who else for, but Martin, who badmouthed the inspired Letter of James because it countered his personal opinions.

 

[thephilosopher6]

That’s actually not the case at all. I’d read up on it more. But suffice it to say the “suspension” is only from a couple of consultative bodies, nothing more. And that has no bearing on the ECUSA’s standing in the communion as a whole as the decision was not rendered by a body with any authority to suspend the ECUSA’s membership in the Anglican communion.

As for the ECUSA and ELCA being “indistinguishable” I suggest more research as both are quite different liturgically, theologically, etc… even if we are in communion with each other.

The Episcopal church doesn’t even seem to have one unified theological outlook, nor does the Anglican Communion as a whole. I mean, the Anglican Communion is rather notorious for its theological plurality. You have Anglo-Catholics and you have Evangelicals. You got some supporting gay marriage and you got others against it. It’s a mad house. Though, the Anglican Communion does seem to be getting itself together in the last few months, especially with the suspension of the Episcopal church in America.

The ELCA doesn’t seem to have one theological outlook either. They profess Lutheran theology, but many don’t believe all that is “officially” professed and it’s not “enforced.” They are not confessional Lutherans like the LCMS and WELS. There seems to be similar theological plurality among the ELCA as there is in the Episcopal church. Out of all the Protestant bodies in America, the ELCA and the Episcopal church seem most likely to merge.

 

[rfournier103]

A couple of things spring to mind from my cursory perusal of this thread…

The first thing is that I am shocked that nobody has addressed what a “RITE” is. The Catholic Church does not have denominations - it has rites. I would hazard to guess that 98% of all Catholics here practice the “ROMAN RITE”. As mentioned before, all of the rites of the Church are in communion (common union) with the Bishop of Rome/the Pope. ALL Catholic rites share a common interpretation of Scripture.

Secondly, I think the word “denomination” has outlived its usefulness as a means of describing Protestants. I can drive through a particular city close to where I live and every time I drive through I see a brand spanking new independent church. Every time. What “denomination” would I put them in? None.

Mainline Protestantism is on the wane and the “independents” are on the rise and they don’t fit neatly into ordered numbered boxes. I wish people would stop throwing the 30K number out there. We’ve been using that number for 35 years now. If it wasn’t outdated then, it HAS to be by now.

 

[Padres1969]

I appreciate all the (name removed by moderator)ut on this thread from non Catholic participants.

What is curious to me as a Catholic is this:

Is there a minimum requirement to be in communion with each other despite the difference, in liturgical practices theology,etc as you note?

I guess what I am asking is what is the common denominator between the communions ELCA and ECUSA,

Blessings

Mary.

Well here’s the ECLA’s answer to your question.

elca.org/Faith/Ecumenical-and-Inter-Religious-Relations/Full-Communion

And here’s the ECUSA’s

episcopalchurch.org/page/evangelical-lutheran-church-america

 

[MaryT777]

Well here’s the ECLA’s answer to your question.

elca.org/Faith/Ecumenical-and-Inter-Religious-Relations/Full-Communion

And here’s the ECUSA’s

episcopalchurch.org/page/evangelical-lutheran-church-america

Thanks, I’ll have the chance to read this later.

Mary.

 

[GKC]

If you indeed count the independents and non-denoms…then you it would be over 30,000 now since the count was done.

philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

Independents (about 22,000 denominations)

Let’s deal with these first, since this is the largest mega-bloc (22000+ “denominations” of the total 33000+). These are broken down into various large groups, and their lists and numbers span from the bottom of page 16, through page 17, and most of page 18. I’m not going to type all of these since the list is quite long – much longer than any of the groupings in the other mega-blocs which are listed below in full. I will quote a major sampling of these “Independent” Christian groups, and still try to cover the whole list:

While the World Christian Encyclopedia does refer to “only” 9000 or so denominations as “Protestant” the source also includes 22,000 or so denominations as “Independent” and if you look at the names of these “Independent” groups above, you’ll see most of them are clearly Protestant (the “Apostolic”, the “Charismatic”, the “Full Gospel”, the house or home churches, the pentecostals, probably all the TV/radio Christians, and all the independents of other Protestant denominations listed, etc). None of these are Catholic or Orthodox, but there appear to be some renegade Orthodox, Anglicans, and schismatic Catholics among the “Independents.” The largest of these Independent Christians are “White-led charismatic” (17,478,000 members [year 1995], in 2856 separate denominations [year 2000]), “African independent pentecostal” (18,943,000 members [year 1995], in 5385 separate denominations [year 2000]), and “African neocharismatic of mixed traditions” (1,500,000 members [year 1995], in 3333 separate denominations [year 2000]). These three are all Protestant (neither Catholic, nor Orthodox) and account for more than half (53%) of the 22,000 “Independent” denominations.

Another section of these “Independents” with a decent number of denominations include (ordered by smallest to largest denominations, year 2000):

And here’s the first mention here of what is most likely the source of the 30,000 (or similar figures) for denominations. And also the source of the 242 denominations for the RCC. That is, it comes from the ongoing studies published by the group that publishes the WORLD CHRISTIAN ENCYCLOPEDIA, and related things .It is often discussed here, and while the facts related to those numbers are often explicated, it never seems to go away. Try searching this forum for WORLD CHRISTIAN ENCYCLOPEDIA. The group has an idiosyncratic definition of “denomination” which they carefully spell out. The key is that for their purposes, and by their definition, a denomination is counted once for each country in which an organized ecclesial group appears. And they specifically point out that the RCC is one Church. But is counted once for each country in which it appears; hence 242 “denominations”. Has nothing to do with sui iuris churches. The Episcopal Church counts as 17 denominations, in this group’s eyes.

The subject is one that has no chance of ever being laid to rest, I know. And how many denominations are there? No idea. Might be 30,000. Might be 50,000. Might be 10,000. It will depend on how one defines “denomination”.