Protestants and the Bible?

[Tomyris]

He basically triggered divisions in the Church even worse than they already were? The question is: Why shoud we move on from him?

For one thing, your church has told you to.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

For one thing, your church has told you to.

Since when?

 

[steve_b]

Go for it…

I wasn’t in that conversation. If I had been, I would have asked
r:

I did some research myself and couldn’t find anything which contradicted what he said. I didn’t get too deep, but tried to look into with the time I had.

Your answer is why I not only ask for references but that the references given need to be properly referenced.

I expect to be asked at sometime for references, so why not give them upfront. And because hopefully we’re able to also give people who read these posts and aren’t a part of them, qualified answers that they can use, that are not someone’s personal opinions, but sourced properly, and properly referenced.

For example ( I wasn’t asked for any of these references in post #195 but I gave them upfront ),

, #195,

As an aside, Re: post #9 , in post #195,

I try and remember (it doesn’t always happen ) to also give the following caveat when I quote from “the Decree of Damasus” reference

When you see an OT book named in the Decree that reads differently from what is expected, see the translation of that name here drbo.org/
For example “Osee” = Hosea

I do that so no one thinks Damasus is NOT naming the same books we’re familiar with

 

[rcwitness]

I wasn’t in that conversation. If I had been, I would have asked

Yes, but you can join in the thread still.

Your answer is why I not only ask for references but that the references given need to be properly referenced.

I know. It’s a busy weekend, so I wanted to reply quickly, but I will try to provide references for my post. I don’t always trouble others (especially well reputed members, forum masters) with references when I can research myself. And if i cannot refute them with what i have found, i give theim the benefit of the doubt. But I understand why it’s important too.

Where do we get our information about the Council of Rome in 382?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

For one thing, your church has told you to.

Indeed

MEETING WITH THE COUNCIL OF THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH IN GERMANY BY BENEDICT XVI

Dear Brothers and Sisters

/…/ I would like first of all to say how deeply grateful I am that we are able to come together. I am particularly grateful to you, my dear brother, Pastor Schneider, for receiving me and for the words with which you have welcomed me here among you. You have opened your heart and openly expressed a truly shared faith, a longing for unity. And we are also glad, for I believe that this session, our meetings here, are also being celebrated as the feast of our shared faith. Moreover, I would like to express my thanks to all of you for your gift in making it possible for us to speak with one another as Christians here, in this historic place

As the Bishop of Rome, it is deeply moving for me to be meeting you here in the ancient Augustinian convent in Erfurt. As we have just heard, this is where Luther studied theology. This is where he celebrated his first Mass. Against his father’s wishes, he did not continue the study of Law, but instead he studied theology and set off on the path towards priesthood in the Order of Saint Augustine. And on this path, he was not simply concerned with this or that. What constantly exercised him was the question of God, the deep passion and driving force of his whole life’s journey. “How do I receive the grace of God?”: this question struck him in the heart and lay at the foundation of all his theological searching and inner struggle. For Luther theology was no mere academic pursuit, but the struggle for oneself, which in turn was a struggle for and with God

“How do I receive the grace of God?” The fact that this question was the driving force of his whole life never ceases to make a deep impression on me. /…/ What does the question of God mean in our lives? In our preaching? Most people today, even Christians, set out from the presupposition that God is not fundamentally interested in our sins and virtues. He knows that we are all mere flesh. And insofar as people believe in an afterlife and a divine judgement at all, nearly everyone presumes for all practical purposes that God is bound to be magnanimous and that ultimately he mercifully overlooks our small failings. The question no longer troubles us. But are they really so small, our failings? /…/ The question: what is God’s position towards me, where do I stand before God? – Luther’s burning question must once more, doubtless in a new form, become our question too, not an academic question, but a real one. In my view, this is the first summons we should attend to in our encounter with Martin Luther

Another important point: God, the one God, creator of heaven and earth, is no mere philosophical hypothesis regarding the origins of the universe. This God has a face, and he has spoken to us. He became one of us in the man Jesus Christ – who is both true God and true man. Luther’s thinking, his whole spirituality, was thoroughly Christocentric: “What promotes Christ’s cause” was for Luther the decisive hermeneutical criterion for the exegesis of sacred Scripture. This presupposes, however, that Christ is at the heart of our spirituality and that love for him, living in communion with him, is what guides our life

/…/ Could this just be an attempt to talk our way past the urgent problems that are still waiting for practical progress, for concrete results? I would respond by saying that the first and most important thing for ecumenism is that we keep in view just how much we have in common, not losing sight of it amid the pressure towards secularization – everything that makes us Christian in the first place and continues to be our gift and our task. It was the error of the Reformation period that for the most part we could only see what divided us and we failed to grasp existentially what we have in common in terms of the great deposit of sacred Scripture and the early Christian creeds. For me, the great ecumenical step forward of recent decades is that we have become aware of all this common ground, that we acknowledge it as we pray and sing together, as we make our joint commitment to the Christian ethos in our dealings with the world, as we bear common witness to the God of Jesus Christ in this world as our inalienable, shared foundation

/…/ It raises afresh the question about what has enduring validity and what can or must be changed – the question of our fundamental faith choice

The second challenge to worldwide Christianity of which I wish to speak /…/: the secularized context of the world in which we Christians today have to live and bear witness to our faith. God is increasingly being driven out of our society, and the history of revelation that Scripture recounts to us seems locked into an ever more remote past. Are we to yield to the pressure of secularization, and become modern by watering down the faith? Naturally faith today has to be thought out afresh, and above all lived afresh, so that it is suited to the present day. Yet it is not by watering the faith down, but by living it today in its fullness that we achieve this. This is a key ecumenical task in which we have to help one another: developing a deeper and livelier faith. It is not strategy that saves us and saves Christianity, but faith – thought out and lived afresh; through such faith, Christ enters this world of ours, and with him, the living God. As the martyrs of the Nazi era brought us together and prompted that great initial ecumenical opening, so today, faith that is lived from deep within amid a secularized world is the most powerful ecumenical force that brings us together, guiding us towards unity in the one Lord. And we pray to him, asking that we may learn to live the faith anew, and that in this way we may then become one

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Since when?

I think this well expresses both the mind of Pope Benedict and Pope Francis today and of the Holy See since the Lutheran Catholic dialogue began 50 years ago…especially the work in the last 30 years

VATICAN CITY, JAN. 24, 2011 (Zenit.org) Here is a translation of the address Benedict XVI gave today upon receiving in audience a delegation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Germany, who are in Rome for the end of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity.

Regional Bishop Friedrich!
Dear Friends of Germany!

I give a cordial welcome to all of you, representatives of top leaders of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Germany, here in the Apostolic Palace, and I am happy because of the fact that you, as a delegation, have come to Rome at the end of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity. In this way you also show that all our longing for unity can bear fruits only if they are rooted in common prayer. In particular, I would like to thank you, dear regional bishop, for your words that, with great sincerity, expressed the common efforts for more profound unity among all Christians.

In the meantime, the official dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics — so it is written here — can look back to more than 50 years of intense activity. You spoke of 30 years. I think that 30 years ago, after the Pope’s visit, we began officially, but in fact we had been dialoguing for a long time. I myself was a member of the “Jaeger-Stahlin-Kreis” born directly after the War. One can speak then of 50 or 30 years. Despite the theological differences that continue to exist on questions that in part are fundamental, a “togetherness” has grown between us, which becomes increasingly the basis of a communion lived in faith and in spirituality between Lutherans and Catholics. What has already been achieved reinforces our trust in continuing the dialogue, because only in this way can we stay together on that way that, finally, is Jesus Christ himself.

Hence, the commitment of the Catholic Church to ecumenism, as my venerable predecessor Pope John Paul II affirmed in his encyclical “Ut Unum Sint,” is not a mere strategy of communication in a changing world, but a fundamental commitment of the Church from her own mission (cf. Nos. 28-32).

For some contemporaries the common goal of full and visible unity of Christians seems to be again today very far. The ecumenical interlocutors in the dialogue have ideas on the unity of the Church that are completely different. I share the concern of many Christians over the fact that the fruits of the ecumenical endeavor, above all in relation to the idea of Church and ministry, are still not sufficiently received by the ecumenical interlocutors. However, even if new difficulties always arise, we look with hope to the future. Even if the divisions of Christians are an obstacle in molding catholicity fully in the reality of the life of the Church, as was promised in Christ and through Christ (cf. “Unitatis Redintegratio,” No. 4), we are confident in the fact that, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the ecumenical dialogue, as important instrument in the life of the Church, will serve to overcome this conflict. This will happen, in the first place, also through the theological dialogue, which must contribute to understanding on the open questions, which are an obstacle along the path to visible unity and the common celebration of the Eucharist as sacrament of unity among Christians.

I am pleased to state that beside the international Lutheran-Catholic dialogue on the topic “Baptism and Growing Ecclesial Communion,” there is also in Germany, since 2009, a bilateral commission of dialogue between the episcopal conference and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Germany, which has taken up again its activity on the topic: “God and the Dignity of Man.” /…/

Today the ecumenical dialogue cannot be split from the reality and from the life in the faith of our Churches without harming them. Hence, let us look together to the year 2017, which will recall theses of Martin Luther from 500 years ago. On that occasion, Lutherans and Catholics will have the opportunity to celebrate throughout the world a common ecumenical commemoration, to fight at the world level for fundamental questions, not — as you yourself have just said — under the form of a triumphant celebration, but as a common profession of our faith in the One and Triune God, in the common obedience to Our Lord and to his Word. We must attribute an important place to common prayer and to interior prayer addressed to our Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of mutual wrongs and for the fault related to the divisions. Part of this purification of the conscience is the reciprocal exchange on the appraisal of the 1,500 years that preceded the Reformation, and which are common to us. For this we wish to implore together, in a constant way, the help of God and the assistance of the Holy Spirit, to be able to take further steps toward the unity that we long for, and to not be satisfied with where we are now.

We are encouraged along this path also by this year’s Week of Prayer for Christian Unity. It recalls for us the chapter of the Acts of the Apostles: “And they devoted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers” (Acts 2:42). In these four acts and conduct the early Christians were constant, and therefore the community grew with Christ and from it flowed this “togetherness” of the men of Christ. This extraordinary and visible witness to the world, of the unity of the early Church could also be for us an incentive and norm for our common ecumenical path in the future.

In the hope that your visit will reinforce further the valid collaboration between Lutherans and Catholics in Germany, I implore for you all the grace of God and His abundant blessings.

[Translation by ZENIT]

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I agree. There is some value in exploring the controversies of the 16th century, and the role played by Luther. But many good and bad developments were going on in the Church before him, during his time and since. I think there are 4 or 5 Catholic fixated posters who have repeatedly started or joined threads in which they recycle, over and over, arguments against Luther. When you throw everything but the kitchen sink against an opponent, people don’t hear anything you have to say. Much worse, they won’t hear anything** I** have to say, which is a tragedy. My suggestion is simply not to respond to most threads about Luther

/…/

Lutherans in 2016 are far more influenced by the developments of the past 50 years than by Luther. Can a communion that respects Tradition retain orthodoxy without the Magisterium in an anti-Christian Western culture? How, in 2016, would they measure their own orthodoxy, or lack thereof?

Now there’s raw material for a good thread.

Actually, sadder than not listening to you is:

• Not focusing on what Pope Saint John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis articulate as the fruit from now 50 years of Catholic-Lutheran Dialogue.
• That focus is not on the Cardinal President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, the dicastery of the Holy See competent in the matters here being discussed.
• That focus is not on “From Conflict to Communion”

The latter is the document at the heart of the joint Catholic-Lutheran year-long commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation…that Pope Francis will inaugurate during an apostolic visit to Sweden on October 31 and in a joint service of common prayer he will co-officiate with Bishop Younan, President of the Lutheran World Federation. This has been in planning for years: a service of common prayer co-presided by the Bishop of Rome and the President of the Lutheran World Federation. How far removed that is from the approaches of a mere few generations ago.

As Pope Francis said:

Pope Francis’ Address to the Lutheran World Federation and Members of the Lutheran-Catholic Commission for Unity (October 21, 2013)

Dear Lutheran Brothers and Sisters, and Dear Catholic Brethren

I gladly welcome all of you, delegation of the Lutheran World Federation and representatives of the Lutheran-Roman Catholic International Commission on Unity. This meeting follows the very cordial and pleasant one I had with you, esteemed Bishop Younan, and with the Secretary of the Lutheran World Federation, Reverend Junge, on the occasion of the celebration of the beginning of my ministry as Bishop of Rome

I look, with a sense of profound gratitude to the Lord Jesus Christ, at the numerous steps that relations between Lutherans and Catholics have taken in the last decades, and not only through theological dialogue, but also through fraternal collaboration in many pastoral areas, above all, in the commitment to progress in spiritual ecumenism. The latter constitutes, in a certain sense, the soul of our journey to full communion, and enables us to look forward henceforth to some fruit, even if imperfect: in the measure in which we come close with humility of spirit to Our Lord Jesus Christ, we are certain to come close also between ourselves, and in the measure in which we invoke from the Lord the gift of unity, we are certain that He will take us by the hand and He will be our guide. We must let ourselves be taken by the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ

This year, as a result of theological dialogue that is now in its fiftieth year, and in view of the commemoration of the fifth centenary of the Reformation, the text was published of the Commission for Lutheran-Catholic Unity, with the significant title: “From Conflict to Communion. The Lutheran-Catholic Interpretation of the Reformation in 2017.” The effort seems very important to me that we all confront one another in dialogue on the historical necessity of the Reformation, on its consequences and on the answers that have been given to it. Catholics and Lutherans can ask for forgiveness for the evil caused to one another and for the offenses committed before God, and together to rejoice for the nostalgia of unity that the Lord has reawakened in our hearts, and which makes us look ahead with a look of hope

In the light of the journey in these decades, and of so many examples of fraternal communion between Lutherans and Catholics, of which we are witnesses, comforted by trust in the grace that is given to us in the Lord Jesus Christ, I am certain that we will be able to go forward on our path of dialogue and communion, also addressing the fundamental questions, as well as the divergences that arise, in the anthropological and ethical field. Of course, difficulties are not lacking and will not be lacking; they will again require patience, dialogue, and reciprocal understanding, but let us not be fearful! We know well – as Benedict XVI reminded us many times – that unity is not primarily the fruit of our effort but of the action of the Holy Spirit, to whom we must open our hearts with trust so that He can lead us on the path to reconciliation and communion

Blessed John Paul II wondered: “How to proclaim the Gospel of reconciliation without at the same time being committed to work for the reconciliation of Christians?” (Encyclical Letter Ut unum sint, 98). May faithful and constant prayer in our communities be able to sustain the theological dialogue, the renewal of life and the conversion of hearts so that, with the help of God One and Triune, we are able to walk towards the fulfillment of the desire of the Son, Jesus Christ, that all may be one. Thank you

[Translation by ZENIT]

 

[Tomyris]

Twice, recently, on this thread I have participated in correcting Catholic posters. Why is that? Why is it that people come on this forum to defend the Catholic faith who aren’t at all prepared to do so intellectually and are not in harmony with the thought and mind of the leaders of the Catholic Church? It seems people want to bash Protestants as rebels when they are guilty of rebellion themselves. People should not be engaging in apologetics work who are incompetent to do so because of ignorance, or a desire to bash Protestants or generally poor spiritual development, or being out of touch with papal sentiments on these matters. Yet this is seen again and again.

A lot of Catholics on CAF should be here to learn their Catholicism and then, maybe, they should work on ecumenical skills. The current situation leaves an extremely sour taste in my mouth.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Twice, recently, on this thread I have participated in correcting Catholic posters. Why is that? Why is it that people come on this forum to defend the Catholic faith who aren’t at all prepared to do so intellectually and are not in harmony with the thought and mind of the leaders of the Catholic Church? It seems people want to bash Protestants as rebels when they are guilty of rebellion themselves. People should not be engaging in apologetics work who are incompetent to do so because of ignorance, or a desire to bash Protestants or generally poor spiritual development, or being out of touch with papal sentiments on these matters. Yet this is seen again and again.

A lot of Catholics on CAF should be here to learn their Catholicism and then, maybe, they should work on ecumenical skills. The current situation leaves an extremely sour taste in my mouth.

Well…imagine my wonderment as: a Catholic priest, an old professor of theology, and as one for whom a major component of my life’s work has been contributing to elements of the ecumenical dialogue that we began now 50+ years ago.

I was describing the forum to one of my old theologian colleagues over lunch several hours ago as a place where conversations happen with nary an invocation (except seemingly by me) of PCPCU and its texts and dispositive directives.

That the foundation principles of discussions are not rooted in Unitatis Redintegratio and Ut Unum Sint (which one should be memorised after the passage of decades) can but leave one agog.

 

[rcwitness]

Twice, recently, on this thread I have participated in correcting Catholic posters. Why is that? Why is it that people come on this forum to defend the Catholic faith who aren’t at all prepared to do so intellectually and are not in harmony with the thought and mind of the leaders of the Catholic Church? It seems people want to bash Protestants as rebels when they are guilty of rebellion themselves. People should not be engaging in apologetics work who are incompetent to do so because of ignorance, or a desire to bash Protestants or generally poor spiritual development, or being out of touch with papal sentiments on these matters. Yet this is seen again and again.

A lot of Catholics on CAF should be here to learn their Catholicism and then, maybe, they should work on ecumenical skills. The current situation leaves an extremely sour taste in my mouth.

Absolutely!

And that is the nature of inter-faith dialogue, no? We have to be patient, learn and hold one another accountable. If you want to hold a Catholic accountable, present us with a Teaching from the Church. Scripture is the greatest weapon (though it’s interpretation must, at times, be supported with other resources).

Isn’t it family members who usually have the deepest wounds in their relationship? It’s important to appreciate the family bond we have. Our wounds must be cleaned, and that can’t be done without some pain.

 

[steve_b]

I know. It’s a busy weekend, so I wanted to reply quickly, but I will try to provide references for my post. I don’t always trouble others (especially well reputed members, forum masters) with references when I can research myself.

It should be no trouble for anyone to give their sources.
r:

And if i cannot refute them with what i have found, i give theim the benefit of the doubt. But I understand why it’s important too.

Where do we get our information about the Council of Rome in 382?

I gave you sources. Why didn’t you open up the links I gave?

For example ( I wasn’t asked for any of these references in post #195 but I gave them upfront ),

, #195,

As an aside, Re: post #9 , in post #195,

I try and remember (it doesn’t always happen ) to also give the following caveat when I quote from “the Decree of Damasus” reference

When you see an OT book named in the Decree that reads differently from what is expected, see the translation of that name here drbo.org/
For example “Osee” = Hosea

I do that so no one thinks Damasus is NOT naming the same books we’re familiar with

BTW, Jurgens is the author who wrote the 3 volume set “Faith of the Fathers” that is often referenced in these forums as a top resource everyone should have on their shelf.

 

[GKC]

It should be no trouble for anyone to give their sources.

I gave you sources. Why didn’t you open up the links I gave?

BTW, Jurgens is the author who wrote the 3 volume set “Faith of the Fathers” that is often referenced in these forums as a top resource everyone should have on their shelf.

As I do.

 

[steve_b]

As I do.

Hey old friend, as I remember, you have every book ever written, in your library

 

[steve_b]

This does not sound right.

I seem to recall Catholic teaching that Protestants are “imperfectly connected to the Catholic Church.” Not what you posted. Please verify from the Catechism that what you said is correct.

816 , 837

Putting 837 into bullet points

(emphasis mine)

Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who possessing the Spirit of Christ, (i.e. baptism)

1. 
   *]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church
   *]together with her entire organization,
   *]and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith
   *]the sacraments,
   *]ecclesiastical government,
   *]and communion
   *]are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.

1. 
   

   Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"

   Do you see what’s being said there?
   
   non Catholics fail in all 7 points
   
   1. 
      *]-]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church/-]
      *]-]together with her entire organization,/-]
      *]-]and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith/-]
      *]-]the sacraments/-],
      *]-]ecclesiastical government/-],
      *]-]and communion/-]
      *]-]are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops/-].
      
      Even Catholics, if they don’t persevere in charity aren’t saved. One has to be not just in the Church in body only but in heart as well.

 

[GKC]

Hey old friend, as I remember, you have every book ever written, in your library

A few on cowboy movies, too.

 

[Tomyris]

816 , 837

Putting 837 into bullet points

Do you see what’s being said there?

non Catholics fail in all 7 points

1. 
   *]-]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church/-]
   *]-]together with her entire organization,/-]
   *]-]and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith/-]
   *]-]the sacraments/-],
   *]-]ecclesiastical government/-],
   *]-]and communion/-]
   *]-]are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops/-].
   
   Even Catholics, if they don’t persevere in charity aren’t saved. One has to be not just in the Church in body only but in heart as well.

1. 
   Did you see Don Ruggero’s response?

 

[steve_b]

The Reformed in no way regard him as the ‘father of Protestantism’. The only thing I’ve ever heard anyone **in the Reformed camp **discuss about him was that he was ‘the boar in the Lord’s vineyard’ because of the language he used.

Q: Who did your “Reformed camp” say founded the Reformed camp? And when did that event happen?

I’ve got my answer, I wonder what your answer is
T:

Calvin has extensive writings on the canon and why what is in it should be in it. He most certainly did NOT say “Fr. Luther said it, so it must be so”.

Luther started the revolt. Calvin came after Luther. And like Luther he had

• the same scripture alone and faith alone focus as Luther had… (complete new idea)
• went with 66 books in the canon just like Luther. ( a break with 1100+ year old canon of 73 books)
• broke from the Catholic Church

T:

Catholics seem to think we regard Luther as some kind of prophet or something whose writings and thoughts are not to be questioned. Nope. Nope. Nope. I have heard far more about Luther on CAF than I ever have elsewhere, and that mainly in discussions started by Catholics about Luther. What is this weird fixation with him, anyway, that people (Catholics_ keep bringing him up over and over again? I don’t recall a thread started by Lutherans on Luther, but plenty of threads attacking him started by Catholics.

In general,

It’s only natural when talking about movements, to also talk about the genesis of different movements and their founders. The Great Heresies
T:

he has been dead for almost 500 years. Why don’t we move on from him?

dead, but his legacy and those who followed after him, continues.

 

[steve_b]

Did you see Don Ruggero’s response?

You wanted the CCC response. So I gave it

 

[Tomyris]

You wanted the CCC response. So I gave it

But did you see his response?

 

[Tomyris]

Q: Who did your “Reformed camp” say founded the Reformed camp? And when did that event happen? .

A thread just started on the origins of presbyterianism.

Please don’t call it “Reformed Camp”. That is offensive. Just say “the Reformed”.