Protestants and The Crucifix

[DARichards]

I am what you catholics call protestant tho I destest that categorization because it lumps me in with other groups who clearly don’t have Christ as their #1… But this is for another discussion.

This can tie in nicely to a thread that I had started: If It Seems Wrong… It Is

My step-mom’s Dad (I guess you could call him my step-grandfather) gave us a crucefix once and it hangs in a spare room that I now have. I don’t keep it out because of my convictions mentioned in other’s well put together previous posts. I wonder if I should take it out sometimes because I feel as though I am keeping Christ locked up but then the whole ‘graven image’ things comes to mind and I keep it where it is. See, I believe it is wrong to display graven images, of Christ or not, because of the whole Commandments thing. I will probably get rid of the one I have but I haven’t because it was a gift by a family member. And if you believe something is wrong by commandment of God Himself and you still do it… it’s almost as if you are doing it to spite Him or because you don’t care if it will tick Him off. Whether it really is wrong in His book or not.

So, until my convictions tell me otherwise, the crucefix I own will stay hanging in my spare room. (I should mention that the spare room is more of a storage room of which no one really goes into)

SinginBeauty

Here is something for you to think about in relation to the 2nd commandment.

1. We know that God our Father cannot contradict Himself. He is bound by his own word. He gave us the 2nd commandment, therefore He is also bound by it.
2. If God is bound by His own word, then why would He command Moses to make an image of a snake to hold up on a staff for the people to look at. Did God break the 2nd commandment?

3)If God is bound by His own word, then why would He command that the Ark of the Covenant to be topped with 2 cheribum (heavenly creatures)?Did God break the 2nd commandment?

1. If God is bound by His own word, then why would He command
   why did he command Solomon to adorn the Temple in Jerusalem the way he did. Read 1Chronicles 3. You will find gold covered pomegranites, trees, the whole nine yards. As a matter of fact, Solomon named the two pillars (v17):"He erected the pillars in front of the temple, one on the right and the other on the left, and named the one on the right Jachin and the one on the left Boaz. "

Since God doesn’t contradict Himself, what did God actually mean? Without the Sacred Tradition of what the early Church taught, they are just shooting in the dark in relation to the true meaning of this scripure. What God’s intention was in this Commandment was the Children of Israel not to make any image that they perceived as God, and then proceed to worship that image as God and attribute Gods powers to that object. This must be taken in consideration of what just happened. Egypt was full of graven images that they worshipped. The children of Israel had lived there for over 4oo years. God didn’t want those idolotrous images following into the land… But it doesn’t mean what the Protestant Churches have claimed for the past 5oo years. If this were the case, then the logical conclusion would to be to remove all crosses, pictures or symbols of Christ, lambs, shephards, or anything else…It breaks the second commandment.

Just something to think about…

 

[Contarini]

I think there’s a loose way to use that term and a strict way. They never used it of themselves. What we called Pentecostals didn’t want anything to do with them because they believed in a Trinity and also in eternal security. But because they believed the Holy Spirit could manifest, the Baptists ostracized them, too. That would probably not happen nowadays so much, but my mother grew up ostracized by everybody. We grew up as social outcasts. I feel much more acculturated to Baptist and Presbyterian services than to Pentecostal services, if we are talking about United Pentecostal.

Interesting that you grew up using “Pentecostal” mostly for the non-Trinitarian branch. That is not how I’ve heard the term at all.

The standard account is that there are three main divisions within historic Pentecostalism:

1. “Holiness” vs. “finished work”
2. Trinitarian vs. non-Trinitarian
3. Black vs. white (and later of course there were other ethnic divisions, particularly Latino)

I think (though I could be wrong) that all the non-Trinitarians were in the “finished work” camp, but the black-white division cuts across the other groups.

From your belief in eternal security, it would seem clear that you were in the “finished work” camp–i.e., you didn’t believe that an experience of entire sanctification was needed after conversion and before the filling with the Holy Spirit (as the “Holiness” Pentecostals do).

You’re right hat generally Pentecostals don’t believe in eternal security, but many of the “finished work” folks came from Baptist, Presbyterian etc. backgrounds, so it makes sense that some would hang on to this.

Of course, people can define themselves any way they like, and such semantic choices are significant.

Edwin

 

[glimmer]

Interesting that you grew up using “Pentecostal” mostly for the non-Trinitarian branch.

Well, you couldn’t really call them a branch because they never heard of anybody like themselves at the time maybe. But interesting that you mention Black vs. White churches. I think they were also the first white church in our town that let other races in, no questions asked. (It was probably different in old rural areas from what I hear.)

I think it’s interesting, looking back, that they never took an offering, but they had millions of dollars funneling through this place which was only an old schoolhouse they had reworked into a church building. But nobody ever got rich. The pastor my mother had back then never lived above the general level of the rest of the people. And he had an amazing gift of caring for people.

I heard a story once that a man went to him for help and the pastor got one phone call after another while the man waited. But before the pastor could even hear his story the man was already ministered to. That’s just what the atmosphere did. I tend to think that’s what God does when people quit having agendas and just let Him work.

Maybe this was possible partly because the original mission was birthed during the Great Depression. Ministry was very horizontal with people helping people. My grandparents took in SOOOO many people from all walks of life–people who just needed help. My grandfather even lost his life savings to a swindler while my grandmother nursed his little girl back to health. Sometimes when you help people, you really have to grow. My grandfather had a real struggle with forgiving the guy, but he finally did. Following the Lord, no matter what form of faith you are in is not for the fainthearted.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Why is it that when you walk in a Protestant Church you don’t see Jesus hanging on the cross?? Is it because they don’t want to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died?

Sometimes it’s because Protestantism & Catholicism tend to represent God in different ways.​

Through the presence of His inspired Word in Scripture, is one way - through a crucifix, is another way.

FWIW, the first Christian picture of Christ Crucified is from (IIRC) 586, in a book of the gospels. This is 270 years after crucifixion was abolished in the Roman Empire. Crosses were in Christian use by the fourth century; processional crosses are known from Rome by 398 - & Christian pictures of crosses are older still.

Not all crucifixes show Christ crucified - a common type is that of Christ the High-Priest, crowned, & not in agony. The kind of crucifix that shows Him in agony, is no older than than the 13th century - I think it’s a Franciscan invention; the preaching friars did a great deal to stimulate devotion to the Passion.

There are many stones cut into the shape of crosses; many of them Celtic, especially from the seventh & eighth centuries. Especially interesting is a Nestorian Cross in China, which is dated by the accompanying text to what for us counts as 781 AD

Although Protestants may not have many visible crosses, plenty of their hymns speak of it - “When I survey the wondrous Cross” was written by an 18th-century English Calvinist - not by a Catholic Protestant piety is strongly centred on Christ as Saviour, Substitute, and Sacrifice for our sins: it is full of His Blood - so there is plenty of opportunity for the Cross to be mentioned. They certainly don’t ignore it. ##

 

[Steadfast]

I’m Lutheran, we use crucifixes.

One is stationed prominently in my church. We like them because they remind us of the Atonement and where it was won.

 

[lak611]

I’m Lutheran, we use crucifixes.

One is stationed prominently in my church. We like them because they remind us of the Atonement and where it was won.

 

[glimmer]

FWIW, the first Christian picture of Christ Crucified is from (IIRC) 586, in a book of the gospels.

Come to think of it, I think you’re right, by Jove! (I think I just said a pagan thing, come to think of it.) The early Christians did NOT use crosses–it comes to me now. They used fishes before that, but the bread and wine was really their symbol if I remember right.

Not all crucifixes show Christ crucified - a common type is that of Christ the High-Priest, crowned, & not in agony. The kind of crucifix that shows Him in agony, is no older than than the 13th century - I think it’s a Franciscan invention; the preaching friars did a great deal to stimulate devotion to the Passion.

I prefer a representational crucifix as opposed to those that are painted and try to show blood dripping. They often come off looking cartoonish. I’d rather concentrate on the spiritual import than on the imperfect art. (Though I do like the San Damiano Cross. It reminds me a little of Bible storybook art.)

Although Protestants may not have many visible crosses, plenty of their hymns speak of it - “When I survey the wondrous Cross” was written by an 18th-century English Calvinist - not by a Catholic Protestant piety is strongly centred on Christ as Saviour, Substitute, and Sacrifice for our sins: it is full of His Blood - so there is plenty of opportunity for the Cross to be mentioned. They certainly don’t ignore it. ##

You are absolutely right. I was going through some old hymns one day and noticed this.

 

[dessert]

I think there’s a loose way to use that term and a strict way. They never used it of themselves. What we called Pentecostals didn’t want anything to do with them because they believed in a Trinity and also in eternal security. But because they believed the Holy Spirit could manifest, the Baptists ostracized them, too. That would probably not happen nowadays so much, but my mother grew up ostracized by everybody. We grew up as social outcasts. I feel much more acculturated to Baptist and Presbyterian services than to Pentecostal services, if we are talking about United Pentecostal.

Keep praying the rosary, which has helped me to become closer to Him. Desert, return from

But God, who is rich in mercy,because of His great love with which He loved us. Ephesians 2:4

 

[flameburns623]

The historic Reformational churches (Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist) often display both the crucifix with the corpus as well as the empty cross. During the Puritan struggles, the bare cross came to be widely seen as symbolizing both the death of Christ (by which He destroyed our death); and the resurrection (by which He restored our life). Rather quickly it also became closely identified as distinguishing Protestants from Catholics, and without a very short time represented the divide between Catholics and Protestants not only over principles but over non-essentials.

The same is true with respect to the enumeration of the Ten Commandments–either is perfectly acceptable, but Catholics parse the Commandments one way, Protestants another. Likewise, Protestants always recited the Lords Prayer with the Doxology–until Vatican II, Roman Catholic omitted it.

The fact is that Roman Catholics are free to wear either crucifixes or bare crosses, and Protestants are free to do the same. I am not kept out of the RCC by the presence or absence of crucifixes. Some things just aren’t worth picking a fight over.

 

[mikemck]

Why is it that when you walk in a Protestant Church you don’t see Jesus hanging on the cross?? Is it because they don’t want to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died?

No. It’s because He’s not on the cross. He’s risen.

Nor is He a helpless baby in His mother’s arms.

 

[dessert]

No. It’s because He’s not on the cross. He’s risen.

Nor is He a helpless baby in His mother’s arms.

YES HE IS RISEN!! I know all this discussion can seem fruitless sometimes but I like to think we might get one pinnapple out of this bunch! Remember driving down the road and have you noticed a cross usually at an intersection on the side of the road? We tragically have a few in our area. Well it means some ones loved one has been killed in an accident. People leave flowers there or even a picture of the person and every year these get renewed because of the damage from the weather but someone replaces it with something else so the person won’t be forgotten. Have you seen this? A person wrote a hymn called The Old Rugged Cross
the third verse goes In the old rugged cross, stained with blood so di-vine, A wonderus beauty I see; for 'twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died, to pardon and sanctify me. So I’ll cherish the old rugged cross etc. ( and the rest of the Hymn) I am just cherishing that Jesus shed His blood so put a little red on your cross so you won’t forget. I was away from it for 40 years and I can get caught up too much into the glory of it all that I forgot to cherish. Afterall Jesus was not an unknown soldier, we liked to remember Him. He was more so than an accident victim and we love Him very very much. He IS much more so than a baby in the arms too!!
God looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand,who seek God.Psalm 53:2

 

[Sixtus]

At the Holy Sacrifce of the Mass, we have a Risen Christ on the background of the cross as the processional cross

This appears mroe meaningful in what was achieved. Though it does not act as a saluatary reminder of the price of the expiation of sin

 

[apple72]

the symbol of the crucifix during the time of Christ means that you are a criminal, and our Lord as a carpenter used to make these crosses, and He died on the cross without sin pure and resplendent. the cruciifx is the symbol of God’s Love for us. that if you ask all married couples marriage is not a bed of roses it is a sacrifice (in the figurative sense not LITERAL!) to die with one’s self. as what the scriptures says: "Pick up your Cross and follow ME!!!) not to be taken litelrally but FIGURATIVELY!!!
Here is a concrete example a soldier, can you deprive the soldier what he went through and just claim the victory of war. i beg to differ you have to consider the soldier and the ordeal that soldier went through.

remember John 3:16 "For God so Love the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son. And that is why we have been freed from Adam and Eve’s ordeal.

 

[Cat]

I converted to Catholicism after over 40 years of active involvement in evangelical Protestant churches.

I hope no one will be terribly offended if I present the practical reason why many Protestant churches have no cruficix.

It’s gross and it scare “seekers” away.

I have a work associate who believes that crucifixes should be illegal. She said it’s as gross as if we were to display an image of a person hung by a rope or a person sitting smoldering in an electric chair.

I think many people share her view.

Remember, this is the age of the “seeker” church. Protestant churches are trying to attract “seekers,” those who either have never believed in Jesus, or those who once believed but fell away.

Seeker churches try hard to make the “church experience” very appealing to “seekers.” They call themselves names like “The Community.” Their buildings look more like restaurants or conference centers than churches. Their music is rock or pop, and there are no organs in sight. Often the sermon is delivers by a video rather than a real person. Often the people attending will sip coffee and munch bagels while listening to the music and the sermon.

That LAST thing a seeker church wants to do is scare prospective “seekers” away by presenting an image of a man with long stringy hair bleeding to death on a cross. YUCKO!

If you see any pictures of Jesus in “seeker” churches, they will be pictures of the laughing Christ, our good buddy!

 

[VociMike]

I have had Protestants tell me they “prefer to focus on the Risen Christ.”

And yet they talk about being washed in the blood of Christ a lot more than Catholics do!

As long as they don’t criticize Catholics for using crucifixes, I don’t much care either way.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I converted to Catholicism after over 40 years of active involvement in evangelical Protestant churches.

I hope no one will be terribly offended if I present the practical reason why many Protestant churches have no cruficix.

It’s gross and it scare “seekers” away.

Welcome home, by the way! I crossed over from Evangelicalism also. One thing that really struck home for me when I began studying the early church writings was the fact that “seekers” weren’t even allowed to participate in the worship. It wasn’t until they had been baptized and confirmed in the faith that they were even allowed to witness the Christian worship, the Mass (that blew my mind right there). That’s when I knew that we were so way off course and that I couldn’t reconcile my understanding of Christianity as it is practiced today in the Evangelical world with how it had started 2000 years ago. Worlds apart, many, many worlds apart.

And now, anything that even remotely reminds them of the Mass, i.e., the crucifix, is somehow, unChristian. Go figure.

 

[Frost]

Why is it that when you walk in a Protestant Church you don’t see Jesus hanging on the cross?? Is it because they don’t want to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died?

In many Protestant churches you do find the crucifix, at least in Lutheran churches.

It is a fact that the empty cross points to the ressurection. But it doesn’t exclude the Passion. If that was true, the cross would be a stupid choice, wouldn’t it?

 

[Cat]

My 23-year old daughter, who is not Catholic (yet!), says that an empty cross is a bizarre object to wear or display. She thinks it’s like wearing a little electric chair or guillotine. Very gruesome.

She says it’s more Christian to wear or display a crucifix. It’s only because Jesus died on the cross that the cross has any significance. Without Jesus, the cross is just a device used for executing people. Many thousands of people were executed on crosses. It’s Jesus who made the cross into an altar upon which He was sacrificed for our sins.

 

[dessert]

My 23-year old daughter, who is not Catholic (yet!), says that an empty cross is a bizarre object to wear or display. She thinks it’s like wearing a little electric chair or guillotine. Very gruesome.

She says it’s more Christian to wear or display a crucifix. It’s only because Jesus died on the cross that the cross has any significance. Without Jesus, the cross is just a device used for executing people. Many thousands of people were executed on crosses. It’s Jesus who made the cross into an altar upon which He was sacrificed for our sins.

 

[glimmer]

Without Jesus, the cross is just a device used for executing people. Many thousands of people were executed on crosses. It’s Jesus who made the cross into an altar upon which He was sacrificed for our sins.

Funny how we all have our pet peeves. I prefer the corpus on a cross for the wall…but to wear–since I’m not looking at or being inspired by what I am wearing–I prefer an empty cross for general sentiment’s sake. Most of us don’t stand still long enough for others to meditate on our jewelry and we can’t see it while we’re wearing it anyway (unless we want to stand in front of a mirror all day)…