Protestants and The Crucifix

[glimmer]

You are one of the most pleasant and respectfull posters I’ve read and I guess I can say we can tell you are so close.

You are so kind. Sometimes I feel I am not respectful enough.

 

[Contarini]

Whew. Glad to hear that. So, if a Protestant is not contrarian then how aobut Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth, Purgatory, Confession, the Real Presence, etc.?

I don’t reject any of those things, although I don’t think purgatory should be dogma, I don’t think confession to a priest is necessary, and I don’t think the Real Presence has to be understood as transubstantiation.

Just because Protestants differ with Catholics doesn’t mean that they automatically take the opposite position, which is a rather incoherent idea anyway (if it were true, Protestants would be atheists, for one thing!).

Edwin

 

[awantz]

Yes, it is cynical, but that has been my experience. Truthfully, Protestants do the opposite of Catholics. I am not interested in what the Protestant communities do. I find them wrong and even inconsistent with one another.

Excuse me. Protestants do not do the opposite of Catholics. I attend both churches every sunday and on holidays. I am very framiliar with both beliefs. If you are not intrested why are you even in the non-catholic forums in the first place? I will totally disredard your last sentence.

 

[jim1130]

Excuse me. Protestants do not do the opposite of Catholics. I attend both churches every sunday and on holidays. I am very framiliar with both beliefs. If you are not intrested why are you even in the non-catholic forums in the first place? I will totally disredard your last sentence.

So be it.

 

[BrownR]

What is an OP? Did I miss something? Does it stand for Orthodoxy Police, Ozone People, or Outraged Paratroopers…?

LOL, I just snorted my coffee…

 

[dessert]

You are so kind. Sometimes I feel I am not respectful enough.

If you feel the Holy Spirit is enlightening you to be more respectfull then go find a priest that you can pray with for forgiveness and a Catholic Church. Just try it. I guess you may not have one near but even if you visit once a month to a distant one or someoone on the forum could suggest an on line or one to call. Don’t confess your sins to me, as I have no power to give you absolution, so will you seek? Desert
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.
JOHN 3;16 God loves you

 

[dessert]

You are so kind. Sometimes I feel I am not respectful enough.

God does love you and I thought I might continue with a storybook picture! Remember when we colored in books when we were little and they had a page of connect the dots?
Well we can make a picture although it will be kind of hard so you we will have to use our imagination a little.
The first dot is God the Father in heaven, make these dots to form a sort of heart shape

2 Peter the rock, first Pope​

#3 God the Son Jesus the Christ who lived and died for all the sin
#4 The cross and resurrection, draw a cross on this heart
#5 God the Holy Spirit, fellowship with God
#6 The Catholic Church,one faith one baptism
And that leads us back to the center top of the heart Our Father
Now envision this heart curving to become the arms of the heavenly Father and you are in the middle of these arms geting a loving and forgiving hug.God loves you that much and He is giving you something special because to Him you are worth everything the cross means.
THE LORDS PRAYER
OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN HALLOWED BE THY NAME
THY KINGDOM COME THY WILL BE DONE
ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN
GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US
AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL AMEN

TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND LEAN NOT ONTO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING;
IN ALL YOUR WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM AND HE SHALL DIRECT YOU PATHS. Proverbs 3; 5-6 NKJ
And may GOD BLESS you also Desert

 

[glimmer]

If you feel the Holy Spirit is enlightening you to be more respectfull then go find a priest that you can pray with for forgiveness and a Catholic Church.

I am utterly confused. My goodness…there are so many worse things I have worked through without aid of a priest. Why now and why for one of the *easier *issues??? That is not to say I do not believe in confessing sins–I do, but I confess them to God, and then to someone else if they are really eating at me. But, honestly, there is always *something *I need to be forgiven. If I took every thing unto a priest, he would have me bending his ear through next year. I’m not against confessing sins to priest, but I can’t understand why people keep sins around until confession time. We ought to ask God forgiveness as soon as it crosses our mind that we have sinned. I really prefer that sins not set in and fester. Life works better than way.

You are so funny, dessert. I think you must be a PR person for Catholicism. I cannot decide if you are serious, funny, both or what. But you are fun.

 

[glimmer]

God does love you and I thought I might continue with a storybook picture! Remember when we colored in books when we were little and they had a page of connect the dots?

I **LOVE **stories!!! That was a fun story!! Where did you learn that story?

THE LORDS PRAYER
OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN HALLOWED BE THY NAME

I love the Lord’s Prayer. Only I like to pray it slower than most Catholics are used to. I use it for the main meditation and go slowly, line by line. It’s something I felt led to do about a year ago. First I start with “Our Father” and mull over that. And while I pray, I ask God to open my understanding. I go through the whole thing like that.

TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND LEAN NOT ONTO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING;
IN ALL YOUR WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM AND HE SHALL DIRECT YOU PATHS. Proverbs 3; 5-6 NKJ

Like Merton’s prayer, “My Lord God, I have no idea where I’m going…”

 

[Philthy]

the cross symbolizes Christ, faith in Christ and His gift of salvation, and His rising…because thats what we think of when we see it. It’s understood and agreed upon, just like the letter A symbolizes certain sounds…because we agree that that is what it means.

That is what a symbol is. It doesn’t need to be literal or even to make some logical sense, it just has to be agreed upon and understood by those who use it.

When Protestants use it, it is used respectfully and it symbolizes Christ’s salvific gift…all parts of it. The God becoming man, the life teachings, the passion and the resurrection. It symbolizes those things, because that is what it means to the people who use it.

If it does not symbolize that to you, then you are welcome to use a symbol that is meaningful to you, but that doesn’t mean that the symbol is not useful to those who recognize it in other terms.

I cannot read Chinese script,yet I do not think that people who can should find a more meaningful way to express themselves…one that will be comprehendable by me. I accept that they understand meanings and nuances, and that their symbols are good.

cheddar

I don’t wish to argue with you but I will point out why I believe your comments are misguided.
This thread is a discussion of the RELATIVE merit of the Crucifix and the Cross. Therefore we must discuss the differences inherent in each of them if we wish to understand their symbolism and the greater or lessor degrees with which they conform to that symbolism.
As I pointed out, an empty cross does little to convey that Christ is risen - the cross was empty for days and Christ was still not risen, He did not rise from the cross, etc etc.
If symbolism is simply reduced to us defining what we wish to symbolise - as you contend - then we could use anything to be the symbol - but we dont do that - except in things like the chinese alphabet, which are not visual symbols, they are defined symbols.

 

[MariaG]

I agree with her. However, it doesn’t always work for me–often it’s a distraction from the faith. I think it’s because our backgrounds have disciplined us to process things in completely different ways. If I see a picture of a saint or of Jesus, I may think it’s nice, but often it bothers me that it can’t possibly be the way they really looked. I start trying to imagine how it would be if you were really there and get strung out critiquing the artist’s conception. Also the deal on Jesus is that I’m focused on the unseen Jesus in the heart and it really messes up my concentration to see a picture. A crucifix I can handle. It’s more obviously representational if it doesn’t try to be realistic with blood and all. It’s more a symbol. My mind works better with obvious symbols.

Oh…but I don’t mind storybook pictures. Maybe 'cause I grew up with those. They are illustrating the action of the story. Holy Pictures and wall pictures just strike me differently.

I have a suggestion for you ? Keep doing what you are doing, trying to imagine how it would be if YOU were really there. But don’t start to critique the artist’s conception. Clearly you notice details, use these pictures, even inaccurate ones as a starting point for contemplating what it really would have been like. Even inaccurate portrayals can start this process. Just try to shift your focus from critiqueing the artist into using it as a starting point.

You seem to realize that it can be a powerful prayful and comtemplative tool to “imagine” that you were there. It can sometimes be particularly hard especially when we “imagine” where we would have been at the crucifixion. I like to believe I would have been at the foot of the cross. But sometimes, I can’t help but imagine how Peter et al felt and did, and think that is where I may have been.

But all are very powerful and can lead us closer to Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I don’t wish to argue with you but I will point out why I believe your comments are misguided.
This thread is a discussion of the RELATIVE merit of the Crucifix and the Cross. Therefore we must discuss the differences inherent in each of them if we wish to understand their symbolism and the greater or lessor degrees with which they conform to that symbolism.
As I pointed out, an empty cross does little to convey that Christ is risen - the cross was empty for days and Christ was still not risen, He did not rise from the cross, etc etc.
If symbolism is simply reduced to us defining what we wish to symbolise - as you contend - then we could use anything to be the symbol - but we dont do that - except in things like the chinese alphabet, which are not visual symbols, they are defined symbols.

Just as a fish symbol has little intrinsic value, it now has come to be associated with Christians. In the same way, the “empty” cross represents the risen Lord. I personally prefer the crucifix because I personally feel that by focusing solely on His rising, I lose focus on the tremendous sacrifice and love that Christ had for us.

But the point is that in Christianity, we do in fact take things and have them symbolize something else. Look at the Christmas wreath, originally a pagan symbol, we remade it to mean a very Christian thing.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[dessert]

I **LOVE **stories!!! That was a fun story!! Where did you learn that story?
I learned it from the Holy Spirit!

I love the Lord’s Prayer. Only I like to pray it slower than most Catholics are used to. I use it for the main meditation and go slowly, line by line. It’s something I felt led to do about a year ago. First I start with “Our Father” and mull over that. And while I pray, I ask God to open my understanding. I go through the whole thing like that.

Like Merton’s prayer, “My Lord God, I have no idea where I’m going…”

 

[glimmer]

You seem to realize that it can be a powerful prayful and comtemplative tool to “imagine” that you were there.

I suppose our imagination is a teaching tool as we try to understand and place things in perspective. I don’t know that imagination can actually transport us into the spiritual realm, though it can certainly alter our senses. When I pray I tend to shut out mental images altogether and go deep into my spirit where there is nothing but God. I do not find that my spirit is God, but that God, in the person of Jesus Christ, has come to indwell my spirit because I asked Him to. Is this right or wrong way to pray?–I don’t know, but it seems to work pretty well.

Let me share something that happened yesterday at work. I am in charge of two enormous special events, one of was on our calendar for tonight. It turned out it was not to be tonight at all, but is to happen next week at the same time as this other huge conference! (oh my god…) It is too late to change either one. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are riding on both events. As to who done it? We don’t know…Could have been any three of us–the dates were floating around between people for so long.

So many thoughts went through my mind. My job stands at the intersection of these two events–everyone is looking to yours truly to solve things. Oh, the hounds of hell were after me! I dashed over to our director’s house on his research day. Normally I would never do that when his wife is out, but I said, to heck with it–have got to get this ironed out.

So on the way over, I pictured the beast of the Apocalypse rising out of the sea. Several scenarios crossed my mind–I could jump off a tall building or abscond with funds and flee to the Antarctic… But I felt strangely calm in spite of it all. I remembered the death and resurrection of Christ and how what looks disastrous turns to glory. I knew the Lord was very near–I didn’t exactly feel Him but maybe I’ve learned His ways well enough to know He is with me no matter what I feel.

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Hallelujah! He is there, no matter what we feel!

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? He never leaves us.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. The Cross passes over our lives and refines us as gold tried in the fire. Think of the Cross…think of the empty tomb. The empty tomb is the womb of eternity where the first-born was birthed and all His brothers and sisters come after.

I enjoy paintings, icons, rosaries, crucifixes, crosses, as they all have a purpose. The world can be pretty dreary sometimes and you may not have such reminders when you need them or a shoulder to cry on. During those times there is nothing like the indwelling Christ who is beyond the scope of all imagination

 

[MariaG]

I suppose our imagination is a teaching tool as we try to understand and place things in perspective. I don’t know that imagination can actually transport us into the spiritual realm, though it can certainly alter our senses. When I pray I tend to shut out mental images altogether and go deep into my spirit where there is nothing but God. I do not find that my spirit is God, but that God, in the person of Jesus Christ, has come to indwell my spirit because I asked Him to. Is this right or wrong way to pray?–I don’t know, but it seems to work pretty well.

Let me share something that happened yesterday at work. I am in charge of two enormous special events, one of was on our calendar for tonight. It turned out it was not to be tonight at all, but is to happen next week at the same time as this other huge conference! (oh my god…) It is too late to change either one. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are riding on both events. As to who done it? We don’t know…Could have been any three of us–the dates were floating around between people for so long.

So many thoughts went through my mind. My job stands at the intersection of these two events–everyone is looking to yours truly to solve things. Oh, the hounds of hell were after me! I dashed over to our director’s house on his research day. Normally I would never do that when his wife is out, but I said, to heck with it–have got to get this ironed out.

So on the way over, I pictured the beast of the Apocalypse rising out of the sea. Several scenarios crossed my mind–I could jump off a tall building or abscond with funds and flee to the Antarctic… But I felt strangely calm in spite of it all. I remembered the death and resurrection of Christ and how what looks disastrous turns to glory. I knew the Lord was very near–I didn’t exactly feel Him but maybe I’ve learned His ways well enough to know He is with me no matter what I feel.

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Hallelujah! He is there, no matter what we feel!

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? He never leaves us.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. The Cross passes over our lives and refines us as gold tried in the fire. Think of the Cross…think of the empty tomb. The empty tomb is the womb of eternity where the first-born was birthed and all His brothers and sisters come after.

I enjoy paintings, icons, rosaries, crucifixes, crosses, as they all have a purpose. The world can be pretty dreary sometimes and you may not have such reminders when you need them or a shoulder to cry on. During those times there is nothing like the indwelling Christ who is beyond the scope of all imagination

What an awesome testimony! Thanks for sharing.

You have hit on a very good way to pray. Too often, when people pray, we try to reach out to Him. But we forget that He is right here with us, inside us. I have found this too a very powerful way to pray.

It is similar, to Mother Teresa and how she could serve those who were horribly diseased, that no one else would touch. When she touched them, she sought to touch and serve Christ within.

We don’t have to reach out to heaven to seek Him.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[glimmer]

What an awesome testimony! Thanks for sharing.

Oh, yeah…I forgot to mention. It appears that we are getting the situation straightened out. It will take some coordination, but I think we can do it. You should see the work flow chart I came up with–very detailed and everything timed to the minute!

It is similar, to Mother Teresa and how she could serve those who were horribly diseased, that no one else would touch. When she touched them, she sought to touch and serve Christ within.

You have to find Christ within, because sometimes things are just too horrible without. This has been an interesting thread–I know it’s about crucifixes vs. crosses, but maybe it is really about the seen vs. the unseen. We see crucifixes and crosses and many other works inspired by people’s love of God, but God is a spirit and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

 

[dessert]

I suppose our imagination is a teaching tool as we try to understand and place things in perspective. I don’t know that imagination can actually transport us into the spiritual realm, though it can certainly alter our senses. When I pray I tend to shut out mental images altogether and go deep into my spirit where there is nothing but God. I do not find that my spirit is God, but that God, in the person of Jesus Christ, has come to indwell my spirit because I asked Him to. Is this right or wrong way to pray?–I don’t know, but it seems to work pretty well.

Let me share something that happened yesterday at work. I am in charge of two enormous special events, one of was on our calendar for tonight. It turned out it was not to be tonight at all, but is to happen next week at the same time as this other huge conference! (oh my god…) It is too late to change either one. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are riding on both events. As to who done it? We don’t know…Could have been any three of us–the dates were floating around between people for so long.

So many thoughts went through my mind. My job stands at the intersection of these two events–everyone is looking to yours truly to solve things. Oh, the hounds of hell were after me! I dashed over to our director’s house on his research day. Normally I would never do that when his wife is out, but I said, to heck with it–have got to get this ironed out.

So on the way over, I pictured the beast of the Apocalypse rising out of the sea. Several scenarios crossed my mind–I could jump off a tall building or abscond with funds and flee to the Antarctic… But I felt strangely calm in spite of it all. I remembered the death and resurrection of Christ and how what looks disastrous turns to glory. I knew the Lord was very near–I didn’t exactly feel Him but maybe I’ve learned His ways well enough to know He is with me no matter what I feel.

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Hallelujah! He is there, no matter what we feel!

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? He never leaves us.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. The Cross passes over our lives and refines us as gold tried in the fire. Think of the Cross…think of the empty tomb. The empty tomb is the womb of eternity where the first-born was birthed and all His brothers and sisters come after.

I enjoy paintings, icons, rosaries, crucifixes, crosses, as they all have a purpose. The world can be pretty dreary sometimes and you may not have such reminders when you need them or a shoulder to cry on. During those times there is nothing like the indwelling Christ who is beyond the scope of all imagination

I’m glad God helped you at your work II’m sure many had you on their prayer lisst this week and ohhhh it hass been funnnny and I do am trying to encourage and recruit and and and — but I guess for me and my house we will still connect the dots. best of God’s blessings! OR has it been two weeks? :bounce: :bible1:

 

[Chickamauga]

the symbol of the crucifix during the time of Christ means that you are a criminal, and our Lord as a carpenter used to make these crosses…

Jesus made crosses?

I don’t know of anything in either Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition that even remotely suggestes that Jesus made crosses for criminals to be crucified on prior to his public ministry. I think there was a scene from the awful movie The Last Temptation of Christ that portrayed him making crosses for the Romans but that film is blasphemous.

 

[glimmer]

I’m glad God helped you at your work II’m sure many had you on their prayer lisst this week and ohhhh it hass been funnnny and I do am trying to encourage and recruit and and and — but I guess for me and my house we will still connect the dots. best of God’s blessings! OR has it been two weeks? :bounce: :bible1:

Thank you all for prayers…whoever you all may be! I forget that many unseen people pray sometimes. Thank you for your contributions, dessert.

 

[Philthy]

Just as a fish symbol has little intrinsic value, it now has come to be associated with Christians. …
God Bless,
Maria

Hi Maria!

Actually the fish played a significant role in the NT, no? Miracles of the fish and loaves, the appearance of Christ to the Apostles where he tells them to “toss your net” and they harvested in abundance and his calling “I will make you fishers of men” all lend credance to the fish as a symbol of Christianity.
I dont have a problem with the cross as a symbol of Christianity - I was simply pointing out that when it comes to symbolizing the RESURRECTED Christ that the empty cross does little. That is because the Cross was empty before Christ was nailed to it, and it was empty after he was taken from it and still had not risen.
I understand that we can all intellectually agree that the empty cross is a symbol of the resurrection, but only BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT WE DEFINE IT AS SUCH, not because the emptiness of the cross relates to the Resurrection on its own.